I agree with you on [b:25f1640e31]most [/b:25f1640e31]points and especially that it would be interesting to compare subjects that you consider more similar in nature. Who would you suggest as a suitable subject to compare Dave with ?

Dear Ash,

(Again, I thank you for at least continuing to communciate....does David know what you are doing?)

"twas little I that made those completely uncalled for and fiendish comparisons with Dave and Cho (and Dave and Dracula or Dave and the Werewolf......very hackneyed, I do apologize, I've certainly lowered my standards there, but I just couldn't remember the name of the thing with all the pins in its skull in Hell-Raiser, for the life of me!!)

I'll write a longer email about why I think a chilling comparison between Cho and McKay is quite feasible,

but could I suggest the eminent,

Dave Berg or Ron Hubbard for starters (I understand that David might suggest Mahatma Gandhi or Martin Luther King if the idea is put to him!)


.....and please forgive me this ornery old soul my "grave-digger humour", (much more than) David forgives others.....

DAVID Haters?

Is this a new strategy on the part of the Jesus Christians to make such outlandish and ludicrous accustations that their critics will be laughing so hard that they'll fall our of their chairs and injure themsleves...

A David hater.....you neglected to mention that I'm also a Mugabe hater and a Pinochet hater and a Hitler hater and.....(the list goes on....!!)

David hater...that's a sign senility or what! I mean David hater????? Can you be serious.....

(Ha hahahahaha.....THUD!.....ouch!!)

Dear Ash,

In relation to my distasteful comparison of Mckay with Cho, I note:


Neither of them have any external “perspective” on themselves or their behaviour:

Chos’ videoed message was of course intended be just another “shot” at the audience, full of suggestions, that responsibility for his behaviour lay elsewhere (in an attempt to engender guilt and remorse among his peers)….deliberately manipulative communication is part and parcel of how David operates:

Both of them actually enjoy carrying the self-perception of being a “victim” or a “martyr” irrespective of the facts,

(…because that of course serves to) justify any “damage” inflicted on others.


As I have said in earlier pages, David is a vert talented individual who has become apparently lost in his own narcissus sim and is no longer able to (nor any longer wants to) see the injury he is causing to others or to the scriptural message he claims to champion.

I too have shared the close relationship you know enjoy with David, and much of my own understanding of scripture (obviously not all of it!) originates from the time I spent in the JesusChristians. My politically incorrect sarcasm in these pages, is of course a “skill” you will recognize that has been honed under David,


Naturally you will point this out to me if it is not true, but by way of similarity with Cho, I imagine that were there to be no donation option in Canada (and I personally have never posted on living donors online myself or in anyway sought to frustrate you there) and were media coverage to be at risk, that David will by now already have canvassed with you, the option of just flying into a (South American?) country with much lower medical and ethical standards….where you would could almost certainly donate but at far greater risk to yourself……

David will have suggestively discussed with you that you that we should all, in fact regret having only one life to give for God, that we need to be prepared to lay down our lives for Christ, we are all going to die eventually anyway and it’s in fact selfish to hang on to our health at all costs considering the value of what you can do to further the Kingdom of GOD, (“He who puts his hand to the plow and looks back etc, etc). In the grand scheme of things (or at least the grand scheme of Davids’) what cost does your life ultimately have Ash if you can’t be part of God’s Kingdom? You do want to be part of God’s Kingdom don’t you Ash…..well you know that yesterdays faith is not sufficient for today…..(and so on and so on…)

I think David would be capable of at least risking (if not directly sacrificing) your life for the purposes he has in mind……I see a little similarity in terms of ruthlessness with Cho.


(…..Mind you he does look a lot like Rael these days too, doesn’t he???)

I’ve brazenly “borrowed” a few recent contributions from our web neighbours “Krishna group in Hawai” It’s amazing how relevant a lot of the comments remain if you just replace the words “Chris Butler” with “David McKay”……

(Perhaps then, Chris could serve as another comparable person, Ash???)

I supose once a rat, always a rat.
Only money and loyal followers makes em a bigger rat.

(Dassi)


Still believing themselves NOT to be fanatical religious followers but the only real devotees of God/Jesus, they need to stop for a minute and look in the mirror at themselves here.

(Just-googling)


Threats, lies and manipulation, humiliation and degradation, isolation and deprivation, occasional indulgences, all-poweful guru, negative reinforcement and monopoly on thought, dominance and slavery all the elements of brainwashing were there.

(Emntk)


"Of course, the problem with the word 'cult' is that it means different things to different folks. I'd like to put forward a behavioral definition: An organization that uses intensive indoctrination techniques to recruit and maintain members into a totalist ideology."

(Zelig)


Just remember …… friends come and go, but enemies accumulate.

(Cultreporter)

Hi all. I just lent a friend my copy of Stout's [i:99849c93ff]The Sociopath Next Door[/i:99849c93ff] in an effort to help him understand the motivations of his particularly difficult boss at work. Excellent book, that one. Can anybody else offer me any insights and/or advice toward identifying and dealing with sociopaths in everyday life? Moderator, what do you say?

Quote
matilda
[i:108681e3d9]Dave haters[/i:108681e3d9] that is what they call us. Dave who teaches members to be open to criticism and correction is trying to dead bat the valid criticisms raised here Dave should clarify Either the [i:108681e3d9]Lord corrects those he loves[/i:108681e3d9] OR [i:108681e3d9]Anyone who corrects Dave is a Dave hater
[/i:108681e3d9] You can not have it both ways. If the first premise holds true, then by preaching the second, Dave could infer that the Lord is a [i:108681e3d9]Dave hater[/i:108681e3d9] According to Dave, God can use many different ways to correct us, remember? Even use a RR website. We are not Dave haters but we do hate many of the things he does which damage peoples lives.

Right on! I pity Dave for needing to do what he does. I pity him for the reward he will get for what he does.
Same as the pity I feel for a pedophile on his way to jail.

I try to visualise his new life, after he repents and dissolves his cult, and makes amends with his victims.
It's hard to imagine, and will be very hard for Dave to deconstruct himself, but ...

... unto him that is [b:108681e3d9]able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think[/b:108681e3d9], according to the power that worketh in us,
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. [Eph3:20-21]

The importance of appropriate “checks and balances” in any system of jurisprudence is of course fundamental to the success of the legal processes therein. I’ve encapsulated what I think is a theoretical example of the “checks and balances”, currently in operation in the JesusChristians.

If you would like to ask David, Ash, I’m sure that he would be able to correct where I have inadvertently painted an abusive and unfair portrayal (given that I’m naturally blinded by my hatred that he has pointed out…..)


Suppose Joe Johnson questions (“too often”) why there is such a persistent effort to wring money out of his mother in the most degrading way possible...there would be a discussion about the issue, and if the "leaders" in Kenya continued to harbour doubts about Joe’s steadfastness to the cause, they would subsequently become "aware" of some fault on his part (say that his is too prone to counting to the cost of discipleship and alternatively doesn’t concentrate enough on the benefits of being part of the community) which would lead to a "grievance meeting" (where Joe would be expected to admit to his "guilt" and outline ways in which he could improve)...if the grievance meeting wasn't concluded satisfactorily (to the "leaders" satisfaction in Kenya) Joe could be then required to go off on his own and "fast" until he came to realize whatever was wrong with him....or alternatively get out and leave the Kingdom of God, for whatever damnation then (that he has told repeatedly) awaited him.


…and there you have it!......A “violence free” method of exercising wanton control over the lives and decisions of others!

(Of course, I’m just taking you up on your offer to “just ask”, here Ash!!...no doubt you’ll be so kind as to “just answer”

Dear Sword,

Thank you for reminding me of that scripture...it's reassuring to have a God that may yet be able to wring some good out of this all....as David has never asked "forgiveness" and in fact appear to prides himself on continuing to wreck the damage he does in the lives of others(..because whatever you may do "in the name of God" is of course completely permissable). I don't feel any obligation to regret the end he has engineered for himself.....my reading of the scripture is that I'm only obliged to render forgiveness to those who ask of it.....but as you said perhaps with the passing pity one might have on one who makes his lifes work, generating victims out of his predatory behaviour...

In the natural course of things, David will likely pass away in the vicinity of 2020-25. (Say he is able to reach his early eighties)....as Mugabe still appears to be managing to run his own "cult of personality", I don't discount the possiblity that David could be there to the bitter end, grasping at the last straws of power that he has left...

I imagine that the JesusChristians will just spiritually "petrify" into yet another sect at that time, whose membership will slowly fade away as it runs out of energy under it's own gradually fading momentum (I'm reminded that the Children of God didn't immediately dissapear after the loss of David Berg)...

The issue of "rehabilitation" comes up here....I'm actually a little hopeful that the Quakers may offer some "halfway" house of respite for those who ultimately find their way out of JC servitude,...certainly (GENUINELY!)working on several of the Quaker service projects that up and running would seem a resonable area of "middle ground".....

But who to make something out of someone who (as in Robin, Roland and Christine's case) have never know anything other than life as a "JesusChristian"....

I personally (deviant that I am!) still have no issue with the idea of "living by faith" or of "working for God"....but concepts such that the rights of others exist independant of membership of your community and that the "name of God" is NOT a universal self-justification for whatever you care to justify through it....how could you convey that to them??? All that some of them know of the wider world.....is what David has told them through the course of their lives. Frightening really!!

Perhaps once outside of their little universe, it'd be possible to have an actual conversation with members of the JC (as opposed to repetition on their part of the things we "need" to believe, (STOP being David hating, systemites for example) in order to be able to really interact with them...

I certainly would be interested in doing whatever little I could do, to actually support isolated groups of them( Ash and Ross?) who might choose to live superficially similar lives to the JC's but who were "man" enough to be able to publically denounce David and the "operational issues" (coaxing minors into membership, the various publicity frauds and the like, the financial greed in its different guises) so often under contention on these pages...

I am aware that the debate has of late, shifted to other forums…however I do feel obliged to publicly raise a matter where I have been deeply wounded.

I refer not to my injured pride, deliberately avoiding running the gauntlet of David’s “rapier” sharp wit in (his controlled) cyberspace and in consequence, cowering in the pages of the RickRoss forum where I may “lick my wounds” from the cutting denouements delivered before the (largely captive) audience on his own homepage…because I mean after all we all know that David is far too clever for us all, don’t we….(well he just tells that us all the time, doesn’t he)…and he continues to put on parade a quality of “thought” that leaves one utterly flabbergasted....articles full of blanket assumptions about the motives of others, but which at the same time “launder” any of the deceptions he engages in, with or without scriptures that stand alongside (never behind) what he is actually doing…(YOU have possessions and an income, which means YOU don’t live by faith which means that ONLY “sincere” I, can really know the will of God…(that’s why I am then justified in estranging families and friends, extorting the time and lives of others, and disregarding the intent of scriptures that seemingly contradict me)…..I mean who else could do that and at the same time, with such flair …

…..that’s of course also why the absolutely overwhelming number of articles in the JesusChristian Website are written by David himself….not because David’s so small that he would feel threatened by any other members “usurping his greatness” with contributions that might make his look ordinary by comparison….but because he knows that he is just so much more knowledgeable that all the rest of them put together.

But I digress…to return to the outrageous attack on my personal standing…. i.e Davids’ denigration that I (among others) am nothing more than a David hater at heart.

That hurts! Oh…the pain of it all….!

Really, I almost in despair…a David-hater! I mean…. a DAVID-Hater! Is that it? A plain and simple David hater….Come on…there’s nothing more! After all these years of toil and effort, the sweat and the tears, the endless pain-staking practise, waking at 5:00 a.m. in order to spend a hour each day glowering and scowling at David’s portrait (carefully placed upside down inside a pentagram)….that’s all I get…David hater…nothing more than that! That’s my only recognition .....being casually tossed aside along with every other “run-o-the-mill” David hater there is, even David haters only just off the streets….I’m considered to be no more fit than for the company of the lowliest, David hater or the rawest recruit to David hating! The merest plebeian David hater..!

It’s an utter injustice, I tell you!

I should AT LEAST be a David hater, Class 1, or an A-Grade or Alpha David Hater. (Hey!...how about a Black-belt David hater (2nd Dan))

Why? Well…..because….I,….I tell you I’ve taken David hating to new levels of professionalism!! What about my Tantric David hating (Take a deep breath….Breathing in through the left nostril….concentrate, focus….RETCH at the thought of what David has allowed himself to become…..relax...release the tension…breath out through the right nostril)…I mean who else has ran all those after school classes down the years in that discipline…Who?.....only me!!

…and now (whimper…sob)….I’ve been relegated to this…to be ranked no more than a common ordinary David hater……I am so…so…. ((Bursts into tears)….Waaaahhh….!)