"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Such confidence we have through Christ before God. Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

--2 Corinthians 3:1-6 (NIV, emphasis added by myself).

The true Epistles of Christ, the above passage teaches us, are written not on paper (with ink that is red or black), nor are they carved into tablets of stone. No, in the above passage Paul teaches us that the true Epistles of Christ are written on the fleshly tablets of the heart, by the Spirit if the Living God. Yes, in context Paul is referring to the Law of Moses, and its being fulfilled at the Cross. But, we can extrapolate from this passage an admonition against all manner of legalism and works-based plans of salvation. So any legalistic emphasis placed upon literal obedience to the red-letter teachings of Jesus, is in defiance of and contradiction to this passage: the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. The red letters can become a type of "Law" unto themselves.

Often I wonder, Malcolm, if Dave McKay believes in God, truly, or if Dave McKay believes that he IS GOD. Yes, I am inclined to agree with you...I am starting to believe that in his cynical, evil old heart that Dave is a closet atheist who knows full well what he is doing (using the Bible like a rope to tie around kids' minds, that is). He's like a serial killer, in that way. He'll have a "cooling off period" for awhile, and will seem to not be so active. But every so often, he'll come back out and will pull some new stunt or other, and taunt parents with videos of their own children calling them by their first names. It's sad, so sad to witness.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 02:18AM by The Whirlwind.

Or here's another way of looking at it: the Jesus Christians say that they believe in the Trinity. That is, they believe that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is also God. A Triune Godhead.

The Bible is not the Word of God; JESUS is the Word of God (John 1). Agreed.

BUT, the Bible is inspired by God, it is "God-breathed". (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

So, it's valid to say that God Himself write the Bible, through inspired human beings.

God Himself is the author of the Bible, in that sense, and Jesus and God are the same Person (from the Christian point of view).

Would it not therefore be true, in that case, that the ENTIRE BIBLE are the words of Jesus Christ, and that His Spirit is what enables us to be able to properly read and interpret it? In that case, the red letters are the words spoken directly and personally by Jesus during His earthly ministry, but they are not the subject of a Christian's entire focus. Otherwise, like I said above, they become just another Law.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 02:32AM by The Whirlwind.

Addendum: it'd be more accurate to state that the Jesus Christians do not reject the doctrine of the Trinity, rather than to say that they accept it. But let's say that the Trinity is something that an individual Jesus Christian believes in. The logical consequence of this, is still that the entire Bible are the words of Jesus!

Then let's say, on the other hand, that an individual Jesus Christian DOES NOT believe in the Trinity. The logical consequence of this, is that the Bible is just a bunch of words about the Word, and we can pretty much ignore everything other than the red letters! Nobody who'd call themselves a Christian would accept that proposition!

[jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 03:05AM by The Whirlwind.

Ummm...

In many ways...I retain the perspectives on the world that I learnt under the 'Christians'....(what the JesusChristians were originally know as...before David decided he needed to properly 'badge' his cult.....in order that he could unsure the public were properly focused on the 'messenger'....and not the message).

You may recall Whirlwind that the Children of God had a couple of questions that were designed to quickly the identity 'pharisees' from within the huge numbers of people that they interacted with....? Here are a couple of examples....

'Do you think we are saved BY grace?....or THROUGH grace?'

'What do you imagine is the temperature in Hell?'

....if you took these questions seriously WHATSOEVER....the immediate assumption was that you were so fucked in the head with your own religious bigotry that it was a complete waste of time communicating with you (amounting to 'casting your pearls before swine'...) that any conversation could be terminated ASAP without any loss of witness...

The doctrine of the trinity would fall into the same category of questionable if not completely worthless religious 'knowledge' within the JesusChristians....

...the scriptural support for this approach would the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10 25 ; 37) or the 'Sheep and the Goats' passage in Matthew 25 where absolutely NO requirement is set that individuals hold the 'right theology'....ONLY that they live out the 'right behaviour'....

I have retained exactly the same perspective.... What modern brand of sandals might Jesus have chosen to have worn were he alive today? 'Nike' or 'Adidas'...? That question would hold the equivalent 'relevance' of the Doctrine of the Trinity to your personal salvation....

I don't accept that where someone does not 'believe' in the doctrine of the trinity (or thinking that saying a prayer and asking Jesus 'into my heart' to name another religious shibboleth) implies that they take the rest of the Bible (outside of Christ's immediate conversation) to be nothing more than a 'bunch of words'.....the value of that 'bunch of words' are striclty evaluated in relation to their accordance with the teachings of Christ....to quote some verses from those 'bunches of words'....


Ephesians 2:19-22 King James Version

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


(My opinion here was once 'JesusChristian Orthodoxy'....however who knows what David has told them to believe of late.....you would need to check!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 08:31AM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

Malcolm Wesley WREST Wrote:

> The doctrine of the trinity would fall into the
> same category of questionable if not completely
> worthless religious 'knowledge' within the
> JesusChristians....
>
> ...the scriptural support for this approach would
> the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10 25 ;
> 37) or the 'Sheep and the Goats' passage in
> Matthew 25 where absolutely NO requirement is set
> that individuals hold the 'right theology'....ONLY
> that they live out the 'right behaviour'....
>
> I have retained exactly the same perspective....
> What modern brand of sandals might Jesus have
> chosen to have worn were he alive today? 'Nike' or
> 'Adidas'...? That question would hold the
> equivalent 'relevance' of the Doctrine of the
> Trinity to your personal salvation....

You were obviously in the group and so your knowledge of how they think "on the inside" is more complete than mine, Malcolm. You were with them; I've just studied them a lot (but I am always learning new things about them too, like I am right now). And these are points I'd never considered before (right theology vs. right behavior, that is). I cannot argue with what you present, either. But it begs the question: isn't placing such a huge and legalistic emphasis on obedience to the red letters (in light of 2 Corinthians 3:1-6) equivalent to putting a believer back under a type of Law?

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 08:48AM by The Whirlwind.

Also: I stand by what I wrote about the Trinity bit, Malcolm. Here's how I see it; I am trying to think like a Jesus Christian here, but it's hard for me.

a) If the Trinity is true, and Jesus is God in the flesh, then the entire Bible are "the teachings of Jesus", and the red letters are not to be emphasized so much. This contradicts Dave's teachings, since Dave places great emphasis on the red letters and literal obedience to them.

b) If the Trinity is NOT true, and Jesus IS NOT God in the flesh, then (from a Jesus Christian point of view, from Dave's point of view) the red letters are more or less the only parts worth paying attention to, in terms of learning about right behavior. Everything else is peripheral, at best. But this is NOT Christian teaching or belief, in any sense. In other words, Christians do not believe that the only thing REALLY worth paying attention to in the Bible, are the red letters.

Either way (a or b), Dave's shtick does not hold up to logical, critical scrutiny.

Please tell me: what am I missing, or not properly understanding, here?

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2020 09:02AM by The Whirlwind.

Malcolm Wesley WREST Wrote:

> ...the scriptural support for this approach would
> the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10 25 ;
> 37) or the 'Sheep and the Goats' passage in
> Matthew 25 where absolutely NO requirement is set
> that individuals hold the 'right theology'....ONLY
> that they live out the 'right behaviour'....

Yes, this principle is spelled out in their articles "A Good Hindu", and "The Good Hndu".

However, it does concern me that, whereas the Pharisees were self-righteous about their good works, a lot of professing Christians today are self-righteous about their lack of good works... and that is an even worse abomination than the one that Jesus confronted. The doctrine of salvation by grace has been taken out of the overall context of the teachings of Jesus. In fact, it is almost impossible to teach such a doctrine just from what Jesus taught. Over and over again Jesus talked of salvation being linked to good works. (e.g. Matthew 25:34-36; Luke 19:8-9.)

I personally prefer a phrase used in Hebrews 6:1, that talks about repentance from "dead works". The various religious rules and rituals of both the Pharisees and the institutional churches today are dead works if they are not based on the teachings of the only begotten Son of God. There can be salvation through no other person than through Jesus Christ himself (Acts 4:12); and if someone has told you (based on the writings of Paul, or Scofield, or Calvin, or Billy Graham, or the Pope or anyone else) that you do not have to obey the teachings of Jesus to be a Christian, then I think you are going to have to argue that one out with Jesus himself when you get to heaven, and I don't think God will be impressed with whoever else you may wish to quote as justification for not at least trying to obey the teachings of Jesus.

So the whole teaching about good works being some kind of a heresy is, in itself, one of the worst heresies in the history of the church.

Now, having said that, let us look at the other half of the offensive statement... the "Good Hindu". It seems that people in Jesus' day had a similar problem with Jesus talking about a "Good Samaritan". "Don't they teach pantheism?" they probably shouted (or something similar). And yet Jesus did not let it stop him from setting up the Good Samaritan as an example of someone who met the criteria that he (Jesus) gave for obtaining eternal life.

See, his rule was to love God and to love your neighbour, and he said that the Good Samaritan (despite his totally off the wall theology) still loved God and loved his neighbour. (Luke 10:25-37) So, in more biblical terms: A good Samaritan will be closer to God than a self-righteous Jew (or Pharisee).

[www.jesuschristians.com]

[www.jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

The Whirlwind Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also: I stand by what I wrote about the Trinity
> bit, Malcolm. Here's how I see it; I am trying to
> think like a Jesus Christian here, but it's hard
> for me.
>
> a) If the Trinity is true, and Jesus is God in
> the flesh, then the entire Bible are "the
> teachings of Jesus", and the red letters are not
> to be emphasized so much. This contradicts Dave's
> teachings, since Dave places great emphasis on the
> red letters and literal obedience to them.
>
> b) If the Trinity is NOT true, and Jesus IS NOT
> God in the flesh, then (from a Jesus Christian
> point of view, from Dave's point of view) the red
> letters are more or less the only parts worth
> paying attention to, in terms of learning about
> right behavior. Everything else is peripheral, at
> best. But this is NOT Christian teaching or
> belief, in any sense. In other words, Christians
> do not believe that the only thing REALLY worth
> paying attention to in the Bible, are the red
> letters.
>
> Either way (a or b), Dave's shtick does not hold
> up to logical, critical scrutiny.
>
> Please tell me: what am I missing, or not properly
> understanding, here?

ImagoDei, please tell me: what do you think of my analysis? Am I way out in left field, or what?

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

I (I despise calling myself a 'JesusChristian'...although I likely represent the viewpoint that they would hold generally)....

...would remark that the entire Bible supports the 'teachings of Jesus' however the Bible is otherwise NOT anywhere near the equivalent of teachings of Jesus. In fact the JesusChristians (and I) would argue that the BIBLE itself says as much...

Phillipians 3 : 8

Knowing Christ is Above All

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:



I would personally 'canonize' the cornerstone.....the JesusChristians would largely consider that the establishment Church has ALREADY effectively removed the 'letter of Christ' from scripture and instead simply replaced the 'law of love' with a 'law'(of legalistic compliance) of their own fabrication;

THEIR 'works' consist of attending Church regularly, paying tithes and generally referencing the ten commandments (which remain in effect but which were superseded by Christ's teachings....which in turn act to fulfill the Law...an idea discussed at length in several of the Epistles).

Hence the JesusChristians would reject all ritual (e.g. rite of communion or rite of baptism) associated with the establishment Church as nothing more than distractions (at best) from the fundamental principles that Christ calls us to live by....

Thank you for your insights here, Malcolm.

To me, the matter hinges on the doctrine of the Trinity, and whether or not Dave believes in it, Malcolm. He equivocates on this matter, but in my sight it's key. I will repeat:

a) If the Trinity is true, and Jesus is God in the flesh, then the entire Bible are "the teachings of Jesus", and the red letters are not to be emphasized so much. This contradicts Dave's teachings, since Dave places great emphasis on the red letters and literal obedience to them.

b) If the Trinity is NOT true, and Jesus IS NOT God in the flesh, then (from a Jesus Christian point of view, from Dave's point of view) the red letters are more or less the only parts worth paying attention to, in terms of learning about right behavior. Everything else is peripheral, at best. But this is NOT Christian teaching or belief, in any sense. In other words, Christians do not believe that the only thing REALLY worth paying attention to in the Bible, are the red letters.

Either way (a or b), Dave's shtick does not hold up to logical, critical scrutiny!

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 11:55PM by The Whirlwind.