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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 23, 2020 06:11AM

A few thoughts, from the Bible...

The Apostle Pal wrote (1 Corinthians 3:1-9):

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, "I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor.

In the above passage, Paul is exhorting the church at Corinth to not think that anybody in the Body of Christ is superior to anybody else, as based on who their local leadership was (Paul or Apollos, that is). The Jesus Christians would do well to ask themselves who they are REALLY disciples of, Jesus Christ or Dave McKay? Paul and Apollos described themselves as servants, servants of God and of the churches to whom they ministered. Who is Dave McKay the servant of?

Dave McKay, of course, is the servant of no one except himself. He is the polar opposite of a Paul, or a Cephas, or an Apollos. In Biblical terms, Dave McKay is a Diotrephes. Dave McKay has been known to kick at least one person out of the group, because they wanted to marry. He is a false prophet and teacher in every sense of the terms. He is exactly the type that 1 Timothy 4 warns us againstv (! Timothy 4:1-3, emphasis added by myself):

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

But, even if Dave were a legitimate Christians teacher (which he is not), 1 Corinthians 3:1-9 nonetheless warns Christians against extreme sectarianism (and the Jesus Christians are certainly an extreme sect, at least). Who are the REALLY following, Jesus Christ or Dave McKay? I say they are REALLY following Dave McKay!

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2020 06:13AM by The Whirlwind.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 23, 2020 09:00AM

A little more...

Dave McKay is a modern-day Diotrephes. He exhibits all the characteristics of "Diotrophes Syndrome". It fits Dave like a hand in a glove. More on Diotrephes here:

[www.thefaithfulword.org]

Executing an Evil Strategy Well

The solution is to level a charge that is improvable, and most importantly, is impossible from which to repent. Among church power brokers the favored charge is "factiousness" (Titus 3:10). Paul says that you should reject a factious man after one or two warnings. Issue these warnings generically from the pulpit, offer no names or specifics, just make generalized warnings—later you can refer to those warnings as already being issued and streamline the entire process.

Then defame and slander their character by adding the charge of anger because those who are passionate about the Word always express emotion sooner or later out of frustration at not being heard so you will always be able to point to some tangible public display of emotion. Oh, never mind that Titus 3 actually defines a factious man as being the one who is introducing destructive and error laden doctrines and who is dividing the fellowship of the church based on improper motives because almost no one is discerning enough in the church to look up the passage on their own, much less properly interpret it in context (hmm, the irony is that while you are falsely accusing the righteous man of being factious Titus 3 actually defines the real factious man as being you). The charge of factiousness itself is sufficient to win the day.

Then, out the door the trouble-making Bible-quoting discerners will go. Most will leave of their own accord anyway, having had enough of their characters being maligned. The few that stick around can easily be sent through a pseudo-church discipline meeting and they too will soon be gone. And since they have nothing they can repent from, they will never return to plague your fellowship again. In fact, this form of ungodly "discipline" might best be characterized by the term "shunning" because its sole goal is to irrevocably destroy fellowship. However, you must never use that term in public because it might draw attention to fact that what you are doing to these innocent individuals really is shunning which is strictly an illegitimate act; we are nowhere called to destroy fellowships but to restore them.


“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Date: August 23, 2020 11:12PM

Insightful analysis there, Whirlwind.

It is possible to actually precisely describe the methods that David McKay employs to falsely impugn those who wishes to remove or denigrate....

He (constantly) describes individuals as 'suffering from 'bitterness'..' or having a 'bitter spirit'....you will repeatedly come across this term in his writings....that is the generic ' go to ' fraudulent accusation that McKay relies upon.....

(The commandment 'Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy Neighbour'...being yet ANOTHER scriptural injunction....that the blackened heart of McKay routinely violates...)

Exactly in the same vein as the misuse of Titus 3 : 10 as you accurately describe...

In the light of the generic observations that McKay employs in his perpetual smear campaigns, it is becoming more and more obvious....that were the current members of the JesusChristians not to suffer from the 'spirit of fellatio' that they are infested with (they will cravenly swallow whatever McKay 'feeds' them).... then the rest of the planet would not have to contend with the snivelling 'spirit of megalomania' that McKay consequently feels vainly empowered to wield....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2020 11:14PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 23, 2020 11:18PM

Malcolm Wesley WREST Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Insightful analysis there, Whirlwind.
>
> It is possible to actually precisely describe the
> methods that David McKay employs to falsely impugn
> those who wishes to remove or denigrate....
>

Thank you, Malcolm. I am not sure that I understand your question. Can you please rephrase it? Are you asking me HOW he does what he does?

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 23, 2020 11:45PM

Malcolm Wesley WREST Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Insightful analysis there, Whirlwind.
>
> It is possible to actually precisely describe the
> methods that David McKay employs to falsely impugn
> those who wishes to remove or denigrate....

However: if I DO understand your question, Malcolm, I will answer by simply cutting and pasting from that article about "Diotrephes Syndrome". I could not put it any better, myself. Does this answer your question?

[www.thefaithfulword.org]

But a Really Good Strategy

Diotrephes used a wonderful and almost unassailable two-pronged attack. An almost perfect strategy. First he attacked the character of the apostles, not their doctrines or theology, but their character, "unjustly accusing us with wicked words." This is so precious. For it should be noted that Diotrephes was able to sidestep his real problem. He could not address the doctrines because he had no Scriptural leg to support him, so he attacked the character of those with good doctrine in order to discredit them and by association, everything they said.

How beautiful that strategy is. How do you counter a character assassination? He said, she said, someone said, all leaves impressions in the minds of the hearers and truth becomes secondary and ultimately lost. The focus is no longer doctrine but whether the person has a good reputation, which by the way was just defamed by the very accuser who is trying to hide his doctrinal failings in the first place.

Prong two is the stroke of genius to the master plan. Cut off fellowship between those who have true biblical discernment and those on whom you are trying to impose the erroneous doctrine. Once fellowship is broken, it becomes impossible for anyone to contradict you. Those who remain in fellowship are those whom you have already won to your point-of-view (who lack appropriate discernment) or are those who are too intimidated to invoke the Word of God against you or against your faulty doctrine. The result is that no one is left to raise any dissent or to contradict you, or worse, raise a valid biblical debate.

In other words, you win by default. You have silenced all your detractors and you win. You do not have to be right, because you win. And by winning, you do not mean that you have attained good doctrine but that you have retained control in spite of your lack of answers and in spite of your poor doctrine. You win, the others lose.

How do you break fellowship between the discerning and the deluded? This requires careful scheming and impeccable execution. You must "put them out of the church" just as Diotrephes did. The only known mechanism that has the appearance of Scriptural and ethical propriety is by using "church discipline." Not genuine "church discipline" however, but pseudo (fake / imitation) church discipline.

Genuine church discipline is all about bringing the sinner back into fellowship by encouraging his repentance from a sin. To encourage his repentance you must privately rebuke him, publicly rebuke him in front of the church, then ultimately treat him as you would any sinner on the street (Matthew 18). Of course, this means no longer inviting him to your breaking-of-bread church services, asking him to take on deacon duties, or allowing him to teach, pray, or read Scripture during meetings of the church. Every interaction will be polite, filled with quotations of Scripture that entreat him to confess his sins and turn from them, always inviting him back to fellowship with God and the church.

This, of course, will never do for your purposes. You goal is not restoration to fellowship, but to permanently sever it. You do not want the Bible-thumpers being lovingly confronted with Scripture because you have none to offer. And frankly, you are the sinner (introducing improper doctrine—remember?), so you do not want or need the discerning ones to repent from any sins, you just want them to go away and not come back. OK, you would also settle for them to just stay quiet and let you run things, but you know that someone who has sufficient discernment to know the Word also knows he is obligated to speak the truth in love, always and often, so you know they will not stay silent.


“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 24, 2020 07:13AM

Malcolm Wesley WREST Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Insightful analysis there, Whirlwind.
>
> It is possible to actually precisely describe the
> methods that David McKay employs to falsely impugn
> those who wishes to remove or denigrate....
>
> He (constantly) describes individuals as
> 'suffering from 'bitterness'..' or having a
> 'bitter spirit'....you will repeatedly come across
> this term in his writings....that is the generic '
> go to ' fraudulent accusation that McKay relies
> upon.....

Just FYI: the word "bitter" and its variants appears seventy times in the Jesus Christians' online teachings. By way of contrast, he word "suicide" appears thirty-four times. He DOES use the word a lot, "bitter" (and its variants) I mean. Thank you for this, sir.

[jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 24, 2020 08:53AM

[www.youtube.com]

They posted this video (above) earlier today. It's called "Will Christians Take the Mark of the Beast?" At 4:34, 1 Timothy 4 is referenced. So they are prepared for somebody referencing this verse, when engaged in dialog with somebody. They've all read 1 Timothy 4, themselves, and have been well-indoctrinated with Dave's interpretation of it. For example:

[jesuschristians.com]

Jesus said no one, having put their hand to the plough (i.e. choosing to work for him instead of for money) and then looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. (Luke 9:62) Hebrews 6:4 says it's impossible, once a person has been enlightened, and had a taste of "the heavenly gift", to be renewed again to repentance after they have fallen away. Paul refers to people searing their consciences with a hot iron. (1 Timothy 4:2) He says that, because they tried to drive all thought of God out of their minds, God gave them reprobate minds. (Romans 1:28)

[jesuschristians.com]

Playing a game of Bible-verse table tennis will not be of much effect, when dealing with a Jesus Christian. One will usually not get very far, when playing proof-text ping-pong with any of them. They're too indoctrinated and too invested in the group, to see anything any other way (in terms of proper interpretation of the Scriptures, vs. Dave's way of interpreting the same).

But, I do not wish to discourage anybody from trying to do so. I'm just putting it out there, to try and save others some frustration.

Dave McKay is a master of the pressure-release method of dissonance-consonance principle toward manipulating others. He's expert in this. He knows how to create cognitive dissonance in somebody's mind, and then help them to find consonance his way.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2020 09:05AM by The Whirlwind.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Posted by: The Whirlwind ()
Date: August 24, 2020 11:17PM

The Jesus Christians' doctrine and teachings are in the vein of a school of Biblical thought called "Jesuism", the origins of which were in the United States in the late nineteenth century. The fact is, that Dave McKay did not discover some Truth that "the churches" are blinded to; Dave McKay was not the first person by any means to place a legalistic emphasis on the red-letter teachings of Jesus. No, as is his pattern Dave simply took the ideas of others, modified them a bit to suit his purposes, and then presented the teaching as if it were his invention. Dave's oeuvre is thoroughly unoriginal and derivative.

[en.wikipedia.org]

[www.gotquestions.org]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Date: August 25, 2020 09:59PM

Will the JesusChristians take the mark of beastly David McKay? Yes in all likelyhood....

David McKay stated to us (in the simple 'Christians' at that time) that God told him not to marry his wife....(and yet he did!)

The Children of God required David to forsake his fetish with his own writing...(..and McKay didn't).

In 1982 David McKay produced literature for public dispersal claiming that the United States would be completely destroyed in a few years in a nuclear attack initiated by Russia...(and it wasn't)...

The 'mark' of David McKay is that he faithlessly believes he can prostitute scripture for his own ends....and that there is actually no 'God' that will ever hold him accountable for his behaviour....David McKay IS an example of the 'unforgiveable sin' (..not admitting you have sinned and expecting your bluster to dissuade anyone from challenging your patent dishonesty....

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

....and in turn it is the minds of the members of the JesusChristians that have become reprobate.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "cult", Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers"
Date: August 25, 2020 10:17PM

David enjoys pretending that his 'knowledgeable eschatology' (purloined from David BERG) somehow sets him apart....

...however I think that there is some unintended salutary 'exegesis' in Davids' warnings in respect of the 'last days'....

Daniel 8:23-25 King James Version

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Commonly the number '666' is investigated (Revelation 13 : 18 )....as a means to identify who the Anti-Christ might actually be....possibly not a particularly reputable method...as the scripture does not indicate WHEN that number will be associated with the Anti-Christ (..it may be a later moniker or title of some nature)... however David McKay remarks in his writings that the Anti Christ will initiate a 'false peace' prior to fully revealing his true nature....

....and so the Anti - Christ will in many senses SHARE the personal characteristics that David McKay illustrates so graphically.....

...some 'wolf in sheep's clothing'....in all likelyhood as intellectually puny as David and yet without needing to take the slightest thought beforehand, effortlessly deceitful....able to sense the vulnerabilities in others that he can exploit....emotionally blackmail, or deceive... or simply injure if necessary...disproportionately vain.... all the traits that David now has ....the Anti-Christ will possess in even greater measure....

David McKay IS thus indeed providing some insight into the 'last days'.... if not in quite the manner he imagines himself to be so doing....

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