"We're Right and They're Wrong"

Anything done in a sincere desire to serve and obey God becomes good and right, no matter how wrong or foolish it may appear to be to human eyes; and anything not done in obedience to God becomes evil, no matter how impressive it may be to human understanding.

This is a frightening teaching, for it can be used to justify anything, even murder. And it has been used to justify anything, including murder.

[jesuschristians.com]

[books.google.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2020 11:15PM by The Whirlwind.

Over and over and over the (not-so-subtle) message in the Jesus Christians' teachings comes through: "everybody in all of Christendom is a hypocrite and a reprobate, except for members of our group". What a cynical, judgmental, inhumane outlook on the world that is. The cruelty, the arrogance!

Everywhere we find people engaged in almost any topic or activity that will numb their conscience to the fact that they are running away from the truth about life. The saddest thing is that what they are running away from is not all the horror that they imagine. All that Jesus taught is aimed at making our lives meaningful, happy, exciting, and worthwhile.

What draws us together as a fellowship is simply that here is one little corner of the world where we can talk openly about the teachings of Jesus, the only begotten Son of God. We cannot do this in any religious environment we know of anywhere in the world today.

[jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

Dave's "Virgin Army" teaching draws on teachings from the book of Revelation 11:1-14 and both literalises, and symbolises it to make it fit his particular slant. The literal interpretation is that members should remain single; if they have to get married then they are encouraged to not have children. Many male members receive vasectomies, as result of this teaching. Children are viewed as liabilities to the group under this perspective.

The 144,000 aspect refers to staying clean and free of sin by abstaining from contact with women, i.e. remaining "virgins". For single members this is literal, but seeing as how Dave is married it also has a symbolic interpretation (women represent corrupt churches or church groups). The 144,000 will be led by the Two Witnesses eventually. This is the point at which Dave skirts the edge of delusion as he claims he is the "Divine Authority". This is only a hair's breadth away from directly claiming to be one of the Two Witnesses. Dave's "co-founder" terminology is also indicative of this line of thinking on his part.

[jesuschristians.com]

[jesuschristians.com]

Dave seems to believe that he is one of the (Biblical) Two Witnesses and that he will one day help rule and reign over the earth with his Virgin Army. He believes that a starship will take the Jesus Christians to heaven. Once onboard, the aliens/angels will explain how the New Jerusalem has been hidden in a secret dimension all this time, and how when the great marriage of God to the Church takes place everyone in New Jerusalem will be able to watch it on big screens. It's all in "Armageddon For Beginners", all this stuff is.

[archive.org]

The two people who were executed will suddenly come to life, as will thousands of others who were killed for their faith in Jesus Christ. They will all be given new bodies that are not subject to gravity as people are now. All of these people, plus those who are alive and who have refused to worship the world leader or to allow a microchip implant on their bodies, will be able to float up to meet Jesus in the sky. This amazing escape will be documented with television coverage around the world. All those who are drawn together in this way will disappear into another dimension, possibly into some kind of a huge starship, where they will celebrate their deliverance. At the same time, new problems will confront those left on earth.

More disasters will strike the earth over the next few weeks, causing suffering for billions of people. Those left on the earth will continue to put the blame on the departed fanatics, and will become convinced that they are dangerous aliens from another world. All the armies of the earth will be drawn together to challenge the aliens, as a show-down looms over Israel.

When those who disappeared have finished their celebrations in their refuge in the skies, they will swoop down on earth behind their leader, Jesus. The weapons amassed in the valley of Megiddo, in Israel, will be no match for them. This is the famous Battle of Armageddon, and it will be totally one sided. Those mortals who mistakenly thought they could fight God, will be wiped out. The victorious army will be fully occupied for months just burying all of the bodies and disposing of the ruined weapons.

Mind you, the Revelation also says that Two Witnesses are killed by the Beast but are resurrected, before ascending to Heaven. The two co-founders of the cult known as "Heaven's Gate" also believed themselves to be the Two Witnesses. We all know what happened to Heaven's Gate, I am sure.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2020 03:35AM by The Whirlwind.

Here's a little more: this is such a bizarre article, "Keeping the 144k Vision". It's as if Dave's favorite topics are Armageddon, and masturbation. He's preoccupied with these topics. There's just something disturbing about an elderly man so openly promoting masturbation, to teenagers. He must get some kind of perverted thrill out of it. Sex and death: Dave writes about these things a lot.

One problem is that we just talk each week in terms of "What is your 144K percentage?" It is almost like asking, "How horny are you?" And, without thinking things through clearly, people pull a figure out of the air. I have mentioned how some people can pick a very high figure without recognising their limitations; but they can also pick a very low figure without recognising how easy it is to maintain a higher percentage.

If we allow ourselves to get into the system mindset, which is that everyone is more or less entitled to a lifetime of sexual activity with one or more sexual partners, then the idea of a lifetime without sexual activity sounds like an almost impossible sacrifice.

On the other hand, the true 144K vision does not eliminate all sexual activity (i.e. It does not eliminate masturbation.) but it does take a very long, hard, cold look at exactly what sexual activity with a partner involves. Obviously, someone who is masturbating could easily think that it would be great to have the real thing. If that was the only concern, then the answer would, of course, be "yes". If you can find a sexual partner, then do so. It's more fun.

[www.jesuschristians.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2020 04:14AM by The Whirlwind.

A matter of particular concern to us is that professional cult-busters (who we have reason to believe have been brought into this by her father) have a fairly high record of success in brainwashing people against groups if they are able to get the person before they have had deep personal involvement in the group. The reason for this is that the cult-busters start by doing much like Fred has already done through the media a bit, and that is to accuse the group of a long list of evils or heresies, until they find one that strikes a bit of fear into the heart of the new convert. The longer converts have been with the community, however, the more confident they can be that the charges are false. Of course, one NEVER can be totally certain that there are not some secret doctrines or practices that really are known to the cult-busters but which have been hidden from the new convert.

[www.angelfire.com]

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

Here is yet another connection to Heaven's Gate (along with the sci-fi Armageddon starship that Dave goes on about, and the stuff about the Two Witnesses): it has been reported members of the Jesus Christians wear wedding rings (regardless of their marital status) in order to demonstrate that they are married to Jesus. The members of Heaven’s Gate all wore wedding rings, as well, to signify their marriage to the “Next Level.” The similarities between the practices of the two groups (Heaven's Gate and the Jesus Christians) are so strong that I can come to no other conclusion but that things will not end well for Dave and his cult. But, as I've said before, I hope that I am mistaken about this.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”

It is abundantly clear that the only "Voice" that Dave wants his disciples to hear, listen to, and promote, is his own. From "Something to Say" (emphasis added by myself):

I believe that the members of our community are largely convinced that they have a special message from God himself. It just happens that it has come first through me. They are happy to repeat it in their own words to others outside the community, but they have found that the most efficient way to get the message out to the maximum number of people with the minimum distortion is for them to distribute my writings in print. Their task, though humble by system standards, is a momentous one compared to the popularity contests that traditional church ministries are constantly engaged in.

[jesuschristians.com]

Dave's modus operandi is to get a recruit in quickly, before he or she has time to assess and the beliefs and practices of the group with anyone else. The grooming process is often done with secrecy, especially if the recruit is a minor. Once the recruit is brought in to the group, he or she is taught that they have already been brainwashed by their families and by society since birth, and are encouraged to be suspicious of them. Clever. Anyone who is convinced they have been brainwashed becomes very keen to be "deprogrammed", so to speak. Decisions made by the group are then presented to the recruit alongside a less attractive option (as in, choosing to g to hell). A Hobson's choice is presented to the recruit, in other words:

[en.wikipedia.org]

Reminders that no one who puts his or her hand to the plough should look back are added; questions are deflected as "evidence" that the recruit does not have faith.

Fear is the only alternative presented by the very group which claims that society lives in fear (and not by faith). Fear is what holds them in the "community". Fear is the glue that holds the group together. In this setting, when a new recruit 'decides' to stay after the trial week, they are unaware that they have been the victim of coercive persuasion.

The group is constantly reminded of how evil "cultbusters" are and systematically are induced to recruit on the basis that we will all try to justify our own behaviour. Therefore, the recruit who attempts to recruit others becomes doubly convinced that they are doing the right thing. Dave's letters on cognitive dissonance explain this. Dave constantly reminds members that everything they do is their own decision (which is a lie) and that "there are no locks on the doors", but the only alternative option presented is going to hell. Physical locks are not necessary when a mind has been chained.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2020 02:05AM by The Whirlwind.

Now two things will come out: 1) I will write to Dave directly and personally, and 2) I will tell a little about myself, in order to tell everybody why I am here,writing on this message board.

Personally, I am celibate (as the group is) and am also a vegetarian (as Cherry, Dave's wife, is). I am not married and my personal life is very monastic in nature. I do not gamble, or associate with shady people. I have a bit of red wine at night for my health, but I do not indulge in intoxication actually. As well, I am not gambler at all. All of this is a reflection and expression of my spiritual beliefs, according to my understanding of the Scriptures.

So it's not that I think that Dave and his group are (basically) wrong when they talk about how the modern-day churches would do better to pay heed to, and abide by, the precepts espoused in the Sermon on the Mount. It's just that I think that Dave is an incredibly hypocritical man, and a predator and false teacher.

It's not that I think Dave altogether wrong in many respects. It's just that I see him as an amazingly hypocritical man.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2020 10:51AM by The Whirlwind.

This is sick. It's so ironic that Dave is using this video to attract kids to his cult, when the reality is that many of the people in the video (like the Gianstefanis, Grace, and Paul) were kicked out of the same group. The very man who wrote the song (Ross Parry) was kicked out of the group, for questioning Dave. Dave is using this videos to lure kids, kids from whom he tries to hide the history of the cult and shield against outside influence. He's using the material of a man who he abused and cast out of his group, in order to attract others to the very same group. That's twisted. So Ross is not good enough to be in your cult, but his song is good enough to promote it?

[www.youtube.com]

Correction from the other day: personally, I am celibate (as the group is) and am also a vegetarian (as Cherry, Dave's wife, is). I am not married and my personal life is very monastic in nature. I do not gamble, or associate with shady people. I have a bit of red wine at night for my health, but I do not indulge in intoxication actually. All of this is a reflection and expression of my spiritual beliefs, according to my understanding of the Scriptures. It's not that I think Dave altogether wrong in many respects. It's just that I see him as an amazingly hypocritical man.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2020 11:47PM by The Whirlwind.

Dave's modus operandi is more or less the same as other types of sexual sadists: domination, manipulation, and control. He does all of this to show us how bright and clover he thinks he is. He enjoys the attention. Dave is a highly obsessive-compulsive personality who believes himself smarter than the rest of the world; he's a psychopath. Dave's overriding motivation is pleasure, namely his own pleasure. He enjoys turning children against their parents. He enjoys teaching kids that it's OK to masturbate. He wants to hear the appeals of the parents, he wants to make mothers and fathers beg for their children to come home. Everything that they represent in terms of familial relationships, that bond between parents and children, is something that Dave has never truly had. He breaks down healthy attachments between parents and children, because he's never had any healthy attachments of his own. His own children have little to no relationship with him, for example. Then he taunts his victims; he produces a video in which he has a woman denouncing her own parents, and promotes the music of a man he's kicked out of the group. These are expressions of Dave's cruelty, his sadism.

“Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said; Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man: for I will demand of thee and answer thou me.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2020 12:50AM by The Whirlwind.