14:04. What kind of healthy church or missionary organization would warn one of its members about "deprogrammers" before sending her home to visit her parents? They warned this young woman (15:47) about Rick Ross before she even left Australia. That's not something a safe group or leader would do, and to a lot of people this would be a big red flag that the group and/or leader IS NOT safe.

[www.youtube.com]


"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 04:16AM by The Whirlwind.

Dave spells out what he believes to be his role in the world quite explicitly in this article entitled "Divine Authority". He is saying "if you reject me, then you are rejecting God". Please keep in mind that this was written in 1998, not long after The Split and about eight years after meeting Jim Roberts on Vine Street, in Oregon. He is writing about Jim Roberts, without admitting it! You cannot fool The Whirlwind, Dave! The Whirlwind knows that Jim Roberts cast you out from his camp, in 1990.

[jesuschristians.com]

"I have tried all my life to convince myself that anyone can be a leader; but no amount of effort on my part has been able to get some people to see past following whoever happens to be shouting the loudest at the time, regardless of whether they are right or wrong in what they are shouting. We can't put all the blame onto bad leaders if people are silly enough to follow them unthinkingly; but then, if the issues are complex and the bad leader is clever with words, I'm not so sure that we can put all the blame on the followers either.

The ability to lead is a gift, that can be used for good or evil. But you need to learn how to choose good leaders over bad ones.

I can't help but feel that if I had better access to some people, I could get them to follow me in preference to their churchy leaders. And I feel that if I could get them to follow me, I could eventually get them to follow Jesus. But maybe not. Maybe some people are just attracted to rebellious leaders, and it was just a matter of time before they would find one to follow. At any rate, it is important to realise that, merely being a gifted leader does not guarantee that a person will not abuse that gift.

There is something else that I'll call divine authority, which is quite separate from gifted leadership. Every leader will claim some kind of authority, which seems to be almost synonymous with being a leader. But divine authority is different, and it can only come from God. It is something like the difference between pride and confidence. People often confuse them, but one is the counterfeit of the other. A confident person has the respect of others; but is actually humble enough to accept criticism. A proud person tries to demand that people respect him or her, and a proud person hides from criticism.

Rebel leaders are like this. They hide from criticism and teach their subjects not to criticise them. But having such power does not say anything about whether they have God's authority to be leading. In fact, as a general rule, the worst leaders are usually the ones whose so-called authority needs to be most protected from criticism. And the best leaders are the ones who are most tolerant of criticism.

I have always tolerated a great deal of criticism, even criticism from rebels, ex-members, and outright enemies. But don't forget that I am the leader of this community (at least for the moment). I know where we are going, because I am seeking God's will above my own. I don't have to preach long sermons on it or abuse people in order to make it clear. Nor do I need to hide from confrontations with critics. For the most part, my record will speak for itself, both in showing my authority from God and in showing my ability to take criticism. But the bottom line is that I am here because God has given me a job to do, and I must do it. I'm not here to promote myself in opposition to someone else. I'm here to get God's work done.

I would like to think that each one of you could leave this community and start another community all over again, as Cherry and I did from scratch; but unless you did so under clear direction from God, you would most certainly be led astray if you tried, just as has happened with others who have left our community. The problem is not that they lacked ability, but only that they lacked authority from God to do such a thing. "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that do it." (Psalm 127:1)

Being clever with words and having a stack of my teachings won't amount to anything if you aren't being led by God. For the moment, all the evidence suggests that God has put me here to lead you, and you are not free to just declare yourself to be the leader and automatically expect God to honour your decree.

I rebelled against the "covering" doctrine in the churches, because they were saying that, right or wrong, people have to follow church leadership. No way! If the leaders are wrong, you must not follow them. But if they are right, it's a different story. If you rebel against a "right" leader, you rebel against God, and he will lift his anointing and protection from you. The reason you would fail would not be because I'm so special, but just that any kingdom divided against itself will not stand. God is not stupid. If he has appointed me (or anyone else) to lead this work, then he will expect others to work in submission to the one he has put there.

He may have other leaders out there (whom we haven't met yet) who also have his authority; but he is not going to anoint two leaders in opposition to one another. Even completely separate ministries must be willing to submit to one another in love.

God has at this time and in our little community, anointed me to act as leader. As long as I am doing my job right, he is not going to anoint someone else to rebel against me. If I get away from God, then I will lose my anointing and God will give authority to someone else to take my place. But beware! Just because you get a chance to start a rebellion, doesn't mean that you have authority nor that I have lost mine; and if I catch you rebelling, I will pull no punches in correcting you, in obedience to God, since it is really God that you are rebelling against when you do that.

For many years in the churches, I listened to sermons from desperate men trying to keep their troops together. They preached submission to themselves in sermon after sermon, week after week. Because of that I more or less vowed not to preach such sermons in my community, and I urged followers to think for themselves and not to be afraid to question me. But over and over the very people I have taught this to have turned on me when they got out of the spirit, and argued that I was power hungry and cruel, just as they have argued with God.

All that was bad in all those preachers has come out through the lips of those who have rebelled against my leadership. They have become obsessed with protecting themselves from criticism, and refusing to talk to anyone who criticises them. Now I see that, in overreacting to a false teaching, I had missed an element of truth in it as well. People are given a choice between leaders who welcome criticism and ones who outlaw it, and they end up attacking the ones who tolerate criticism, because they know we will be tolerant of their outbursts.

I now see that, in an effort to do what is right myself (i.e. to accept criticism), I failed to teach respect for divine authority. So gutless followers who are too frightened to stand up to really dictatorial leaders, will turn on the gracious one because they know that he will take it. And if he doesn't, then they'll quote his own teachings back to him in an effort to get him to justify their actions. It is time to put an end to this misconception. Just because I am willing to listen to criticism (and my critics are not) does not mean that the critics are right. In fact, most of them are eternally wrong.

What I am saying does not exempt you from a need to develop a strong conscience and personal accountability before God. These things are especially important in the event that I do go off the rails. But I am ruling out everyone running off with their own opinions and saying that they have as much right as me to say what is right. The plain truth is that you don't. You don't all have the "divine authority" which God has, at least for the present, given to me, to lead this community. Any organisation that is divided against itself is going to fall. If you want to rebel, go somewhere else and start your own community, but don't come telling me that I have to do it your way.

What I am saying here also does not make me infallible, nor does it exempt me from criticism, as I've already said above. But it does say that if you are going to take a grievance against me, you had better be sure before you start that you are right, or you may be dealt with harshly for taking a false or frivolous grievance. We need to put an end to all those vexatious litigations that I used to almost encourage, in order to make it clear that I wasn't trying to railroad people on issues.

I have authority from God, to lead a movement back toward obedience to Jesus, and back toward living by faith, in preparation for the return of Jesus. There is a difference between divine authority and the political manoeuvrings of those who seek power for selfish purposes. The political empire builders are like blithering idiots when confronted with someone who is sincerely looking for the truth. And when they're not spreading hatred against me personally, they are running in fear that they will have to answer for something that they have said. The truth is that they are running from God, to whom they will have to answer for their actions, no matter how much they run from me.

I want to especially thank those of you who had the courage to act on authority from God in confronting rebellion even when I was guilty of trying to be soft on it (in order to make myself look like a "nice guy"). Confronting rebellion of your own initiative is the kind of action that makes you true leaders. Mind you, it doesn't guarantee that you too might not be lifted up with pride one day; and it appears that that is why God has put me here for the time being. But it does show that you have a certain amount of divine authority already, which will just simply make way for itself if you continue to sincerely and humbly follow God.

Update, June, 2003. The group that split from us five years ago has totally fallen apart and several are now professing atheists.

Further update, July, 2009. I used the words "apostle" and "captain of this ship" in the original version of this article, which were taken, by our critics, as a declaration that I was something almost superhuman, and so I have made a few minor adjustment to this article... something I have rarely ever done to stuff that I have written. I really do not know what an apostle is. If it's someone who is pioneering a new work (e.g. a missionary to an untouched region) then Cherry and I both might qualify. On the other hand, it could be considered a leader of several communities, in which case Joe and Alf may be "apostles" at the moment. But because so many people think of it as being one of only twelve leaders in the world (as in the Twelve Apostles), the title is far too grandiose to be bothered with, when "leader" works just as well. Nevertheless, the lesson about respecting leaders in the Lord is still valid."

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 04:58AM by The Whirlwind.

Dave spells it out very explicitly here, too: "if you reject me, then you are rejecting God".

[www.jesuschristians.com]

"When you really love someone, and you see them making a serious mistake, there's never any satisfaction in saying, "I told you so," or in knowing that one day they're going to know that you were right and they were wrong. All that you really want is for them to correct the serious mistake that they're making.

But one of the cleverest tricks the devil has in his bag of tricks is the one where he gets you off the rails by telling you that you can blame someone else for it. Ironically, the one most likely to cop the blame is the one shouting the loudest that you're off the rails.

"Who are you to judge?" "I'm sick of your criticisms!" "Let me live my own life!" they all say, as we watch them walk away. They're not walking away from us so much as they are walking (or running) away from God.

"And now I suppose you think you're God?" they reply to that one.

Well, in a way... yeah.

Jesus said (John 13:20; John 15:20) that when we come in his name (i.e. really saying the things he said, and not just using his name as a cloak for teaching our own made-up doctrines) when we come teaching people to obey him, and they reject us, they're rejecting him.

Now we challenge anyone to show us someone who is more serious about teaching people to obey Jesus than we are.

Many have argued that they could reject us and not reject God; but it hasn't taken long before pride, bitterness, dishonesty, selfishness, and spiritual laziness have begun to flourish in their lives. We agree that people could find faults in us and reject those faults; but if they're doing so in obedience to God, then they should be showing the fruits of such obedience in their own lives.

The evidence of backsliding is almost imperceptible at first; but it doesn't take long before it can develop into a full scale avalanche of reversals in lifestyle, values, reasoning, friendships, and sentiments.

Those who start out theoretically differing with us on some small opinion matter have, by walking away from us, grown to hate even our presence, and especially to run and hide any time that we mention God.

Jesus said no one, having put their hand to the plough (i.e. choosing to work for him instead of for money) and then looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. (Luke 9:62) Hebrews 6:4 says it's impossible, once a person has been enlightened, and had a taste of "the heavenly gift", to be renewed again to repentance after they have fallen away. Paul refers to people searing their consciences with a hot iron. (1 Timothy 4:2) He says that, because they tried to drive all thought of God out of their minds, God gave them reprobate minds. (Romans 1:28)

These verses sound so utterly hopeless; and we want very badly to believe that they don't mean what they appear to be saying. But all around us are people who are proving every day how true these verses are. Despite our efforts to love them and to take graciously the bitterness that they have expressed toward us, they continue to put up barriers against even discussing the teachings of Jesus.

At times we see tiny signs of hope, little gestures of politeness, even hints of friendship. We keep praying and hoping. But it seems that the ones who stand the best chance of learning from those who have left us are those who have not.

What a classic picture this is of the world as a whole. Everywhere people are sliding, day by day, step by step, closer to the cliff that will drop them into hell. We try to tell them that their jobs, their education, their wealth and their religious double-talk won't save them, but they carry on bluffing and telling us not to be so critical, not to judge.

What satisfaction will we get when they discover too late that what we have been saying is true? We don't want to see them lost. And God certainly doesn't. But that's what will happen unless they fall on their faces before God and beg for his forgiveness, promising never to treat his teachings lightly again.

And while we're on the subject, what are you doing with the teachings of Jesus these days?"

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"

CORRECTION: Dave McKay never stopped; he never even slowed down. He just got sneakier and even more devious. Why does he distort his voice in recordings, I wonder? And how was this young woman "imprisoned"? She's on a remote ranch, a hundred kilometres from nowhere. If anybody truly wanted to keep her against HER will, then it would have been easy to do so. So this "Texas Ranch Prison" story does not add up.

[www.youtube.com]

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 05:14AM by The Whirlwind.

[www.jesuschristians.com]

Dave makes allusions to death, martyrdom, and suicide all over the place in his writings. It's never explicit; one has to read between the lines a bit. But when you study his writings, you will notice this pattern. This is this subtle undertone of violence and death all throughout his writings. He writes about death a lot.

[www.jesuschristians.com]

"This willingness by dissidents, to die before accepting defeat, is a powerful political tool amongst the oppressed peoples of the world. When the oppressed do not have the military might or will to destroy their enemies, they are often able to achieve more by destroying themselves. Their willingness to die, and even to push the button or pull the rope themselves highlights the ultimate powerlessness of their opponents.

Gandhi did that in India. More than once he fasted to where he was near death, and when he did, things happened which could not have happened at the point of a gun."

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 10:39AM by The Whirlwind.

The Jesus Christians are pretty much the Australian equivalent of the Roberts group, with three major differences: 1) The Roberts group limited their activities (as far as I know) to North America and Northern Mexico, whereas the McKay group is international, 2) the McKay group uses the Internet, makes videos, and actively recruits online. The Roberts group (again, as far as I know) did not do that. 3) the McKay group does not have a uniform of sorts, unlike the Roberts group.

Dave McKay and his people met Jim Roberts in Oregon, and even camped with the Roberts group for a while in Berkeley, CA in 1990 or so. Basically, Jim Roberts somehow found out that Dave was in fact not a mere junior member of the group that that represented himself to be from, but was instead its leader.

Upon realizing that Dave was in fact there to (in effect) infiltrate his group, Roberts then asked Dave and the Christians (as they at the time called themselves) to leave the Vine Street house where they were all housed at the time.

Attilla and a woman (both from the Christians, who were in the USA at the time) met two Roberts group members, one named Jonathon SCHMIDT (who is still with the Roberts cult to this day) and another named Thomas in Berkeley, CA in approximately 1990. Eventually, Dave met with Roberts himself in Oregon, in a house on a Vine Street. This is the information we have regarding the McKay-Roberts connection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 10:37PM by The Whirlwind.

Please note the man in this video, on the bicycle, who is facing Mr. Rooney, at 13:28:

[culteducation.com]

His name is Thomas, and he is the one who told us about Dave McKay and Jim Roberts' meeting in 1990. In fact, Thomas was there, present when that happened. Gotcha, Dave. :-)

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2020 11:26PM by The Whirlwind.

"Kidneys for Jesus": this is a very good documentary video, in which we see Dave McKay's true colors come out. Go to the thirty-five minute-mark. Dave is saying that he will let this woman Christine die, just to spite Jon Ronson. Is that what Jesus would do? What kind of wholesome Christian leader would do such a thing?

[www.youtube.com]

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2020 10:36PM by The Whirlwind.

In the clip below, at 5:42, Jeremy Kyle remarks that it strikes him as sad that an organization like Dave McKay's would get in the way of parents and their children maintaining a relationship throughout their lives. Dave responds by accusing Liesel of lying and being a bad mother. Jeremy Kyle tells him (8:24) that he cannot control every aspect of the show. Dave's cold, accusatory, hyper-controlling nature is on full display on the Jeremy Kyle show.

[www.youtube.com]

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels a shouted for joy?"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2020 11:19PM by The Whirlwind.

Here is my psychological analysis, my profile of Dave McKay: Dave has become too seduced by the specialness of his "calling". He takes your attention away from real issues which make you feel weak and vulnerable as a human being, and replaces them with a sort of pseudo-sense of being somebody special who is doing a special thing. Dave long ago drifted into a state of amorality, and long ago lost his moral compass (if he ever had one to start with). He likes the feeling of control he has over his disciples. He cannot stop himself anymore; he has no control over what he is doing. He's come to rely on the group to keep himself going. It's become such an important part of his identity, that he cannot give it up. He feels more alive in the moments when he can taunt and accuse his prey. The quality that shines out when he is doing so, is that it's almost an orgasmic experience for him. This is apparent when, for example, Dave is taunting Liesel in the Jeremy Kyle clip I posted earlier today. There is something about the experience of hurting others, which is important to him. He enjoys it; he is sadistic in that way. Dave seducing a young person into his group, and then taunting his or her family, is akin to a sexual experience for him. He got the opportunity to taunt Tara's family in the video they released the other day; he's had his orgasm, and now he is on to the next one. Dave cannot help being a predator, any more than water can help being wet. It's simply his nature. He did just just stare into the abyss, he fell into it a long time ago.

"Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?"



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2020 01:26AM by The Whirlwind.