Current Page: 85 of 115
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 23, 2012 10:10AM

This is all off topic and I beg your pardon. So much for the theory that I am your associate in the big government consipracy and all, huh, RR? ;-) Good night.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 10:10AM by zeuszor.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: February 23, 2012 07:10PM

Zueszor, Just mo, but a discussion of therapy may be considered of use/relevant to some in or around high intensity religious groups. When you are discussing the possibility of creating change, the issue perhaps is that right now you are looking at and talking about sociological approaches, not about therapists.
If you want to fix a broken car, you can go to an electric physicist for theories; or you can take the car to someone who specializes in mechanics.

Who are the great therapists who helped people to create change? People like say Milton Erickson ( and what a man he was!) or Virginia Satir.Then there is the Rogerian approach of unconditional positive regard, narrative therapy, many different ideas that are about helping individual people to create change in their lives. if you want to look at how people can produce changes in their lives, then rather than look at theorists/sociologists who discuss why people do the things they do, it may be helpful to you to look at the "mechanics" of the psych world,and study how those who are excellent at helping individuals to create change, actually do it.
Interestingly, some studies have suggested it is the rapport between therapist and client that is more important in creating change, than the theoretical approach used.

Certainly, not all therapists are comfortable with intervention style approaches,and people are all unique individuals. For some, life in a high demand group may have more to offer than life outside it, possibly for many different reasons, that might include emotional bonds, social support, or even social position within the group.
But there may be many others who feel trapped in a situation, but don't know how to or fear to make a change.
I remember reading the story of one lady, different group, whose leader had got her to the point where she was beating and injuring herself on his command,and also doing the same to others. The only reason she had for doing this was because the leader said to do it.
And she had reached the point where anything he said was coming directly from God.
The trap was inside her mind.
Good therapists/interventionists help people negotiate through these kinds of mind traps.
People inside these kind of mind traps may believe that asking for help is a betrayal of their religion.
Some may even have been so beaten down, or so messed with that they believe they deserve to be treated badly,and that there is, and should be, no escape.
And some have so many conflicts they are dealing with, they just don't know what they really think.
People tend to be extremely complex. Its not like there is an on/off button that flashes when someone needs help or is ready to make a change. Sometimes, there may be a desire for help even when there is no obvious external evidence that this is so. ( Look at Elizabeth Smart, kidnapped and abused, yet she initially lied to a policeman about who she was. )
A hand reaching across the abyss offering support can sometimes be enough to keep someone going, til they can find their own answers.
( And Zeuszor, if you ever get a chance, you might be interested in reading about Milton Erickson.Talk about someone who was able to get inside his clients world and really improve his clients lives...)

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 23, 2012 09:57PM

Nobody's going to leave the cult/abusive situation, until they realize that they're in a cult/abusive situation in the first place. Same with the "graduates."

That's the only point that I was trying to make, in the first place.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: February 23, 2012 11:14PM


"Nobody's going to leave the cult/abusive situation, until they realize that they're in a cult/abusive situation in the first place."

Once again, that's the precise purpose of an intervention, i.e. through the intervention the cult involved person comes to "realize" they are in a "cult/abusive situation".

Please understand that attempting to attack me personally doesn't change the facts.

There has never been a licensing entity for "cult deprogrammers" or cult intervention professionals.

The Pardons seem to be nice people, but Meadowhaven is not a licensed mental health faciltiy, which was my point.

Robert Pardon is an ordained minister. He has a degree in religious studies and a masters in divinity. He is not a mental health professional.

See []

Judy Pardon has a degree in psychology, a certification in Elementary Education and a Masters in Education (M.Ed.) in counseling from Cambridge College.

See []

BTW--Steve Hassan also has an M.Ed. in counseling from Cambridge College.

As you know Steve Hassan and Robert Pardon have worked together closely for many years.

Now back to the reason I am interjecting on this thread now.

Many times your posts pontificate about this or that and frequently you offer unsolicited advice. I have received repeated complaints about your conduct on this message board. Nevertheless you have been allowed to post freely here for some time without interference. Though from time to time you have engaged in what can be seen as "flame wars".

At this juncture it is necessary to draw some distinctions and set some parameters.

You are certainly not qualified to offer any advice as a mental health professional. You don't have a college degree yet and are not a licensed mental health professional.

All you can really offer here is your personal opinions and whatever insights that you can based upon your cultic experiences.

I strongly suggest you confine your posts to this realm and leave any analysis beyond that point to qualified experts and licensed professionals.

Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 01:01AM by rrmoderator.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 23, 2012 11:30PM

And you, sir, are not a liscenced or credentialed anything either, so learn some humility yourself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: February 23, 2012 11:50PM


Your posts are becoming redundant and rather childish.

Again, I am a qualified expert in my field, and have never stated or inferred that this includes "credentialed anything".

This is a "straw man" argument.

Again, there is no specific credential, degree or licensing regarding cult intervention work.

My expertise regarding cults has been recognized officially though in the courts of ten states, including US Federal Court through a Daubert hearing, which is the standard test mandated to qualify the expertise of a court expert witness.

Though I have never attended college and began my work as a community volunteer in 1982, many colleges and universities have invited me to lecture on campus specfically about cults, cultic influence and/or dynamics, e.g. U Penn, University of Chicago, Carnegie Mellon, etc.

See []

There is nothing misleading about my professional background within my CV, which is publicly posted.

See []

Now having responded directly to your repeated ad hominem attacks, let's return to real issue.

Please refrain from offering unsolicited advice here about cult interventions, cult related psyhcological issues, etc., which you are not qualified and/or credentialed to offer.

Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 05:41AM by rrmoderator.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: February 24, 2012 04:09AM

It's not an ad hominem attack, Rick, it's the truth: you are not any more liscenced (academically or professionally) than any of the professionals you criticize. And nor am I, for that matter, liscenced or credentialed (academically or professionally) to dispense advice. I've heard a lot of ethics complaints about you too, sir, so let's leave it at that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: February 24, 2012 05:10AM


No. Let's not leave it at that.

There you go again.

Maybe you should read this slowly to let it sink in. I am not a mental health professional, nor do I dispense advice and/or work in that area. And I don't pretend to be an academic.

My area of expertise professionally is cults.

"The professionals you criticize"?

FYI -- I didn't crticize the Pardons or Meadowhaven, but rather simply made the point that Rev. Pardon is not a mental health professional and Mrs. Pardon has a masters in eduction/counseling. Also, that Meadowhaven is not a licensed mental health facility. These are facts not criticism.

Do you still work with Steve Hassan?

As I recall you were being paid by or through Steve to do "research" for his office. Is that still an ongoing source of income for you?

If so you must know that Steve has a history of complaints concerning his fees, ethical conduct, etc.

Let's set the record straight at this juncture.

I have reported about the lawsuit filed against Patrick Ryan, a "thought reform consultant" (aka "cult deprogrammer"). Ryan was sued by a couple that initially retained him, but later decided not to use him. He failed to refund their $2,000.00 retainer. The matter was litigated and Ryan lost twice -- once at the initial trial and later on appeal.

See []

I have also reported about Anton Hein. He runs the Web site called "Apologetics Index". Hein is a convicted and registered sex offender. He is also wanted on a fugitive warrant in the US.

See []

FYI -- (1) No one has complained and raised issues about my fees, which have been publicly posted since 1996. (2) No potential client or former client has taken me to court over any matter. (3) There is no warrant issued for my immediate arrest.

Your attempt to attack me persnaolly and/or professionally is baseless. It seems if someone disagrees with you, your response is often a personal attack. At least that's your pattern of behavior on this message board.

BTW -- Meadowhaven has a "Resources" page where the Pardons link to and apparently promote various Web sites and professionals.

See []

The Pardons recommend as resources Patrick Ryan, Steve Hassan/Freedom of Mind and Apologetics Index.

Is this why you are going on here?

Is it because of your relationship with the Pardons and Steve Hassan?

Disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan

The Ross Institute of New Jersey/May 2013

See []

The inclusion of news articles within the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) archives, which mention and/or quote Steven Hassan, in no way suggests that RI recommends Mr. Hassan or recognizes him in any way.

News articles that mention Steve Hassan have been archived for historical purposes only due to the information they contain about controversial groups, movements and/or leaders.

RI does not recommend Steven Hassan.

RI has received serious complaints about Steve Hassan concerning his fees. Mr. Hassan does not publicly disclose his fee schedule, but according to complaints Steve Hassan has charged fees varying from $250.00 per hour or $2,500.00 per day to $500.00 per hour or $5,000.00 per day. This does not include Mr. Hassan's expenses, which according to complaints can be quite substantial.

Steven Hassan has charged families tens of thousands of dollars and provided questionable results. One recent complaint cited total fees of almost $50,000.00. But this very expensive intervention effort ended in failure.

Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results..."

Steve Hassan has at times suggested to potential clients that they purchase a preliminary report based upon what he calls his "BITE" model. These "BITE reports" can potentially cost thousands of dollars.

See []

Steve Hassan runs a for-profit corporation called "Freedom of Mind." Mr. Hassan is listed as the corporate agent for that business as well as its president and treasurer.

RI does not recommend "Freedom of Mind" as a resource.

RI also does not list or recommend Steve Hassan's books.

To better understand why Mr. Hassan's books are not recommended by RI read this detailed review of his most recently self-published book titled "Freedom of Mind."

See []

Steve Hassan's cult intervention methodology has historically raised concerns since its inception. The book "Recovery from Cults" (W.W. Norton & Co. pp. 174-175) edited by Dr. Michael Langone states the following:

"Calling his approach 'strategic intervention [sic] therapy,' Hassan (1988) stresses that, although he too tries to communicate a body of information to cultists and to help them think independently, he also does formal counseling. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan’s runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework’s foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client."

RI has also learned that Mr. Hassan has had dual-relationships with his counseling clients. That is, clients seeing Mr. Hassan for counseling may also do professional cult intervention work with him.

Professionals in the field of cultic studies have also expressed concerns regarding Steven Hassan's use of hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Based upon complaints and the concerns expressed about Mr. Hassan RI does not recommend Steve Hassan for counseling, intervention work or any other form of professional consultation.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:24PM by rrmoderator.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: Apollo ()
Date: February 24, 2012 05:47AM

Are the Pardon's aware they are promoting a website which a convicted sex offender runs?

I know they read this forum. If they have any credibility whatsoever then they will immediately withdraw their support for that website.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: February 24, 2012 05:59AM



I sent an email to Rev. Pardon today.

Zeuszor's posts prompted me to go through the Meadowhaven site and I saw the "Resources" page.

Hopefully the Pardons will reconsider listing Hein as a resource.

Anton Hein plead guilty to the charge of “lewd or lascivious acts with child under 14 years.” The child was his 13-year old niece. He was registered as a sex offender in California and there is a felony warrant currently issued for his immediate arrest filed by the San Diego County Sheriff's Department. Hein currently lives in Amsterdam, but if he attempted to enter the US he would be arrrested.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 06:00AM by rrmoderator.

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 85 of 115

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.