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zeuszor
How pathetic and ridiculous it is, that Dave runs a "foum" in which only those who agree with him in all repsects are allowed to participate! What kind of "discussion" is that?

It isn't. Dave had said that I was under moderation until a two way communication can be established. From what I had experienced there: I take that to mean when he has dominated me in leading me to accept everything he says as gospel.

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About how many registered users are part of that forum, Enow?

I forget, but there was hardly any activity over there except for the posts I had recently done from which Dave had responded to: and not all of my posts were posted.

He had referred this site as a "hate site", and had called Rick Ross an athiest when he had found out that I was heading over here and then I came back and saw that parting shot towards me for my reply to "Joy" in the Introduction part of the forum. She was curious as to how I had found that forum as she stated that it was Dave's forum in all respect.

When you do an internet search: the link to that site says this:

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Forum: Visit our forum. Watch the Jesus Christians in action as they discuss issues including those raised by our critics. Earn points for your contributions which ...

Apparently you can even get points for just reading the threads, but hardly the site as described above, but I reckon if Dave doesn't allow all posts to be posted by newbies such as myself, then one can make it appear as if he is on top of his game in answering all the critics, debunking reproofs, and whatever. I'm not saying that none of my posts are seen. Just saying and he has even posted in admitting it, that not all of my posts are posted,...unless he has decided to recitify that by letting them get posted now to answer them just for his members to see.

I was wondering if Dave had given the rebuttal or answer to my reply to his categorizing "do noy drink, do not eat, do not masturbate" as being of the commandments of men when in actuality, we can drink, but not get drunk. If one cannot drink without getting drunk, then they should not drink at all. Plus "masturbate" is the work of the flesh called uncleanness. It cannot escape as a work of the flesh when considered with all of these other sins.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

**This reference was not given to Dave, but it ties in with the subject**

**Ephesians 5:3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;**

This reference below was given in asscoiation with Galatians 5th reference to Dave.

2 Corinthians 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Do note that verse 20. I know that we are to mark those that are contrary and do not obey the gospel of grace since his site also pushes that one has to work towards their salvation. There is that doubleminded talk there where they say we can't save ourselves, but works has to accompany the believer and thus it graduates from there where one is working their way into Heaven and that no one can say that they are saved yet. Kind of adds the fear factor like catholicism does in getting to do the works of catholicism. Same rudiment, but claiming his rudiment is based on the teachings of Christ. I still call that as labouring in unbelief, but that is what fear and doubt will do to insecure believers when they divide that singular hope in Jesus Christ as their Saviour that they are saved as in past tense wherein instead of applying faith in Jesus to be their Good Shepherd in helping them to follow Him, leaning on Him for the understanding of His words in the King James Bible, in being His disciple, they wind up using somebody else to be their "shepherd" in being their disciple where they wind up working for their salvation. Where is the Good News in that? Suc is a description of a thief, allowing someobody else or an organization be the route for which believer relate to God when we are to relate personally to God only through Jesus Christ. That is why He is called te Bridegroom.

His disciples are to teach all that Jesus had taught us, but they are also taught to rely on Jesus Christ to be their Good Shepherd as the disciples do. Disciples were never to govern but to be examples by being servants.

Mark 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Like politicians as public servants, errant "leaders" that oppress insecure believers with their false teachings hope that these followers will not see them doing as they teach them to do as they profit off of them. Jesus would say this:

Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Here, Dave is pushing the commandment of Jesus' to be his disciple by giving everything up and live by faith and yet giving it all up to Dave is not showing Dave as doing the same thing since he is pretty much living off of these members' sacrifices.

I mean: he claims he is 70: that passed the retirement age for working. You guys are saying he is moving around alot., but somehow he has time to be on teh computer and at different sites: and for that to occur, he has to have a computer so he can't really say he has given everything up for Jesus to be His disciple: he has to pay for his computer services: he has a wife to take care of: he has shelter to house that computer in: he has not really shown anyone what it means to literally give up everything in the way he is using Luke 14:33 to mean and so hopefully, his members will see that and stop supporting him since he is not the "Jesus Christ" that they should be giving everything up to.

The thing is: it is a members read only forum so you have to join in order to access the forum to read so you can't really just visit and watch. So in that way, no one can see and certianly no authority can see him hoodwinking or browbeating members into giving up everything.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

This is what Dave is not doing:

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

This should be applicable towards all such "cultic leaders" and "cultic organizations".

I have seen earlier in this thread that links to Dave's site had been posted: but not this one, I don't think. I did not read all of the 105 pages in this thread just so you know. The registration agreement has the servor in France from what I could recall.

Jesus Christians

In any event, one can see from my experience of the controlling factor involved in just joining that forum.

In spite of the appearance of evil, we should pray for Dave. That is what Paul had taught, but He did say that we are to withdraw from those that follow not after the tradition taught of us: but yet count them not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother:

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Jesus said it more harshly in case somebody was thinking of going back to minister to him:

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. 21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Luke 17:1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! 2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones. 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

I cannot see anyone talking to him when he has a set agenda and is so controlling. Only Jesus Christ can reach him now.

1 Timothy 2:1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Everybody has to forsake all, except for David and his consort. Have you ever read Jon Ronson's The Psychopath Test, Enow? David is right there, in the first five pages of that book. See for yourself.

Be warned; you may as well as bang your head up agaisnt a wall, than try and reason with Dave McKay. He is impervious to objective, logical thinking.

Dave McKay is selfish, narcissistic, committed to his own pleasure, and committed to the feeding of his own grandiose self-image, no matter what it might cost anybody else. Never forget that. "Dialog" with him at your own risk.

What it boils down to, is that DM hates anything or anybody that he cannot control.

DM derives pleasure from manipulating people, period. If he figures he can take someone down the garden path by exploiting some ambiguity of language, then he will. But if that doesn't work, he has no problem with out and out deceit. It doesn't matter to him, the only point is to get a reaction.

His behavior is similar to that of serial murderers, who, once in custody, pretend to wish to divulge information about unsolved crimes, but really don't want anything but attention. He loves to make folks dance.

He isn't concerned with his own credibility, just with exerting control over other people, whether it's by enraging them, or deceiving them, or as he must do in his work exploiting people's misery, feigning empathy.

The only goal for him is to get a response that he feels he controlled. It's all about control and nothing about dialogue with DM.

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Enow

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rrmoderator
Some people just have the bad luck to run into someone like McKay.

I sure did. I did an internet search for truth seekers forum and then modified it to Jesus Christ forums and this Jesus Christians forum popped up. I had joined only to find that I was at odds with the moderator Dave. From the first post I was under heavy moderation except for the Introduction part of the forum. For some reason, it went straight to post there, but elsewhere... it had to be reviewed first. Now my log in is invalid and I can no longer read the "Members Read Only" forum part of the site.

Hello Enow,

How did you hear about them?

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zeuszor
Everybody has to forsake all, except for David and his consort. Have you ever read Jon Ronson's The Psychopath Test, Enow? David is right there, in the first five pages of that book. See for yourself.

Be warned; you may as well as bang your head up agaisnt a wall, than try and reason with Dave McKay. He is impervious to objective, logical thinking.

I'm not able to continue at his forum anyway. Probably banned. Just as well. I would have withdrawn eventually as the Lord leads me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2012 08:55PM by Enow.

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Apollo

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Enow

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rrmoderator
Some people just have the bad luck to run into someone like McKay.

I sure did. I did an internet search for truth seekers forum and then modified it to Jesus Christ forums and this Jesus Christians forum popped up. I had joined only to find that I was at odds with the moderator Dave. From the first post I was under heavy moderation except for the Introduction part of the forum. For some reason, it went straight to post there, but elsewhere... it had to be reviewed first. Now my log in is invalid and I can no longer read the "Members Read Only" forum part of the site.

Hello Enow,

How did you hear about them?

It's right there in the quote you had of mine. I happened upon them by chance doing an internet search.

It was his forum that I had found about about what RR site was which was Rick Ross. He had posted that he comes over here and reads up on the site, and he has made threads in refuting or explaining to save face on what was shared over here.

So my advise to you and to Rick Ross is take each of his teachings and reprove them by scripture. Maybe he will regret engaging his followers about the activities going on over here at this supposedly "hate site" as God may cause the increase and deliver some. Maybe the Lord will deliver Dave from his own evil. One never knows. Pray for him. Jesus can save him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2012 09:05PM by Enow.

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Enow

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Apollo

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Enow

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rrmoderator
Some people just have the bad luck to run into someone like McKay.

I sure did. I did an internet search for truth seekers forum and then modified it to Jesus Christ forums and this Jesus Christians forum popped up. I had joined only to find that I was at odds with the moderator Dave. From the first post I was under heavy moderation except for the Introduction part of the forum. For some reason, it went straight to post there, but elsewhere... it had to be reviewed first. Now my log in is invalid and I can no longer read the "Members Read Only" forum part of the site.

Hello Enow,

How did you hear about them?

It's right there in the quote you had of mine. I happened upon them by chance doing an internet search.

It was his forum that I had found about about what RR site was which was Rick Ross. He had posted that he comes over here and reads up on the site, and he has made threads in refuting or explaining to save face on what was shared over here.

So my advise to you and to Rick Ross is take each of his teachings and reprove them by scripture. Maybe he will regret engaging his followers about the activities going on over here at this supposedly "hate site" as God may cause the increase and deliver some. Maybe the Lord will deliver Dave from his own evil. One never knows. Pray for him. Jesus can save him.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were referring to the Truth Believers who are a Jesus Christians breakaway cult.

I had seen that menbtioned, I think, earlier in the thread.

Incidentally, is Rick Ross an athiest or not? If you have a link to prove that he is not, I am sure the readers from his forum will see that Dave was not only wrong on that count, but was lying since I get the impression that not only Dave comes over to read this forum, but the members may do the same thing.

I may consider going over there to that other forum you had mentioned, but if Dave runs that one too, then I'll probably will not be able to register to join.

Why would I consider joining that forum?

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Course, how long I stay there, is all in God's hand.

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zeuszor
Until these tech problems get resolved, let's continue our discussion of the McKay organization here.

Update 2012: It appears that the "Jesus Christians" led by Dave McKay have changed the group name. The group now seems to be known as the "Truth Belivers" and has a new Web site.

See [www.wix.com]

I just get a dark page when I go there. Did it shut down? Or do I have to really wait that long for the page to download?

One of the faith robbing teachings of Dave McKay is the idea that no one can know if and when they have the Holy Spirit, thus alluding to the idea of working for your salvation.

One such misapplication os scripture can be seen here.

John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

One could see how this taken out of context and applied to Dave's false teaching gives support to this fear, and yet failing to see how Dave is misapplying that verse in robbing them of the joy of their salvation. So let's see how Jesus' teaching as Dave is reading it applies in the Book of Acts.

For the readers: take note exactly what Peter had said because you will see how "easily" these Gentiles that became believers had received the promise of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. 36The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) 37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; 41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now for Dave and his followers, they are either scratching their heads, wondering how this can be when none of Peter's words dictated any of the commandments of Jesus other than to believe, and yet they had received the Holy Ghost...or they are not.

In any event, whomever God gives ears to hear and eyes to see, they shall be led to read on.

So how come these Gentile believer had received the Holy Ghost, Dare we look back to see if Jesus's commandment was just to believe Him in order to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

John 14: 1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

See that? The commandment was to believe Him which leads to the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus wasn't referring to everything He has ever taught. For such a big deal about giving a promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost, God would be clear in what it is that is required to receive that promise, and that was to believe Him. We just read how it had happened to the Gentiles when they became believers.

And we can see that is exactly what Jesus had meant and promised because of what has been plainly written to the church at Ephesus.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

How do we know that all believers will have the Holy Ghost? Because Jesus promised us in how we are saved in becoming His.

John 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Paul confirms this:

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about works? Dave as other believers are using the book of James out of context in regards to faith without works is dead. James was not talking about the faith in Jesus Christ, but the misuse of verbalizing faith in God's Providence to the poor in getting out of helping the poor where such verbalization of such faith in His Providence would not profit the poor nor save the poor from the lements and starvation when the church issuing that faith in God for tommorow are not showing that faith by meeting the immediate needs of the poor today of what the church does not immediately need. James even referenced Abraham to prove that is the kind of faith he was talking about in context:

James 2:13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. 14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


When you read this and then keep that in mind as you read on that it was about faith in His providence:

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Then James coming from a Jewish background would only reference that event as Abraham noted the event by the name of the place.

Genesis 22:7And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.....

13And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

The name pf the place Jehovahjireh means that God will provide for His servants. That is the faith James was talking about: not about the faith in Jesus Christ. It is about verbalizing faith to the departing poor to be warmed and to be filled and yet fail to show that faith in His Providence when the church does not lead by example when they had the means to meet the immediate needs of the poor from the bounty that was recently collected at the church.

Now most religious believers will contend and ignore this reproof by scripture, but Dave cannot get around this following reference which is about how believing in God is how one is saved.

Romans 4: 1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

So that is the faith we have in Jesus Christ for our salvation: believing in Jesus Christ as our Saviour..

Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

The call of discipleship is exactly that: for discipleship: not for salvation: the call for discipleship is learning of Him and all of His promises to us in living as His while on this earth, trusting Him to help us to follow Him by faith in the Son of God alone. It is so that we may bear fruit and not be entangled in any sins or religious dead works that deny Him as able, thus getting to know Him and the power of His resurrection when believers trust Jesus as their Good Shepherd as well as their Saviour.

John 8:30As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;....36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

What is required in following Jesus is just as easy as our free gift of salvation as both can be obtained by trusting the Lord. By grace we have been saved and thus by the grace of God, we follow the Son of God by faith in Him which is something a child can do and what every religious person must surrender to do in becoming as a child by trusting the Lord.

Mark 10:13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Matthew 11:25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

1 John 3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Colossians 1:27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 6:19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So the race to run is not to be saved, but to remain as that vessel unto honour in His House by looking to the author and finisher of our faith to help us depart from every iniquity in bringing us Home to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

That's right. Salvation cannot be lost, but a prodigal son can give up his first inheritance for wild living which he will regret like Esau did for giving up his birthright for a meal. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth as these saints that get left behind from the pre tribulatioanl rapture event will find which is why God is wqiping the tears from the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation because a miracle from God will be needed to get them past that loss, but even then, this proves that Jesus will finish His workmanship even in those left behind as they will show the glory of the power of God in salvation for all those that believe as vessels unto dishonour in His House. Why?

John 6:38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So this is why His disciples are seeking to teach other believers, even those that have gone astray, in the hopes that God will pewradventure make disciples out of them.

2 Timothy 2:24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 2:10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

So this is why we can be witnesses of Jesus Christ as the Saviour now because we are saved simply for believing in Him, but now as disciples, we are seeking to edify any believer in the knowledge of Him so that their love may abound yet more and more and be fruitful as His disciple and have their joy full without becoming a disciple of like say... Dave McKay and live in fear while they have the joy of their salvation robbed from them.

Romans 8:9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.....15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Galatians 3:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The fact they believe proves that is a work of God Himself and thus they are saved.

John 3:18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So may God peradventure to lead Dave to repentance as well as his followers in the knowledge and faith in Jesus Christ, and restore, if not for the first time, the joy of their salvation in Christ Jesus and have Jesus as their Good Shepherd, and not Dave.