Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: Enow ()
Date: August 12, 2012 12:17AM

"Joy", whom is a member at that forum, had believed that because of this verse below:

John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

....that salvation can be lost.

Salvation cannot be lost, but the first inheritance of being that vessel of honour in His House is at stake which is the same as jeopardizing the reward of attending the Marriage Supper at the pre tribulational rapture event when God comes to judge His House first: then He comes back with the raptured saints to judge the world.

Getting back on topic: here is what I mean:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

We do that by looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to depart from iniquity.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus said this to all the saved believers in regards to being His disciple:

John 8: 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free....36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The whole point of continuing in His words is to be fruitful and so that our joy may be full: not for salvation:

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

Now some will point out verse 6 as of one can lose their salvation, ignoring everything else that Jesus said for the end result which is not salvation, but to bear fruit so that our joy may be full. But contenders would point out the fire in verse 6. Then others would contend against that by saying that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. Neither side are being complete in their application of the scripture.

Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

So there is "condemnation" for those that believe and yet walk after the flesh, risking becoming that vessel unto dishonour in His House when God comes to judge His House at the pre tribulational rapture event. Proof? Note God's address to this church below:

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee,....

Not all cut and dry having faith, works, charity, and service when they are engaged in iniquity:

Revelation 2:because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

It ties in with the consequences of not departing from the works of the flesh.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So apply the prodigal son in giving up his first inheritance for wild living: a believer can lose the right to attend the Marriage Supper as a vessel of honour in His House in becoming and condemned as that vessel unto dishonour in His House, testifying still to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe because he still has His seal and thus still son.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Let's examine that fire in light of the faith in Jesus Christ, and that consequences for defiling that temple of God, as well as the refusal to look to the author and finisher of our faith to overcome that sin to depart from that iniquity before God comes.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are....23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

So there is a fire coming on those non-repentant believers that are His. What type of fire? There are two types of fire.

The Refiner's fire on the believers:

Malachi 3:1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

And the fire He will send on the earth which is coinciding with that judgment on the House of God to prompt them to be ready.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

The appointing of those saints not being ready will find themselves with the unbelievers when God send fire on the earth in the coming great tribulation.

Why would God do this? They have been bought with a price and sealed as His: thus it goes to this promise below and why Jesus would even finish His work even in those left behind.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So God is coming to judge His House AND thus there is condemnation to those that walk in the flesh and/or have departed from faith: even to unbelief: but they still have His seal, and thus God will judge His people which is why His disciples seek to warn other believers of the reality of their reconciled relationship with God through Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

By His grace and by His help, His disciples seek that other believers obtain the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is in Christ Jesus of being that vessel unto honour in His House: and even though some may have depart from faith and no longer believe: if they continue to deny the Lord when the Bridegroom comes, they will be denied, but even though they no longer believe, He cannot deny Himself in them and thus will finish His workmanship in those not ready to go that got left behind.

Why must God judge His House? As God led Paul in teaching about excommunication in regards to the offense of unrepented fornication, you can see how God will judge His House as those not abiding in Him will not eat at the table of the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So what the church failed to do in seeking the good of the brother or sister in Christ, God will excommunicate that unrepentant believer to be delivered unto Satan to the destruction of the flesh which is the same as being appointed with the unbelievers at the coming of the great tribulation when He will send fire on the earth. We can see why there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but take note that God is wiping the tears from the eyes of the saints coming out of the great tribulation as a miracle from God is needed for them to get passed that "great loss" of being that vessel unto honour in His House at the Marriage Supper.

So while the door to the Marriage Supper is still open, may everyone having His seal look to Him for help to depart from iniquity.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: Apollo ()
Date: August 12, 2012 01:02AM

You've been banned already?

Take it as a compliment. It means Dave knows he can't control you. If he sees no opportunity to control or manipulate then he'll quickly ban you. That forum is there for Dave to seek new victims/followers. It has no other purpose.

It's quite clear you've studied the bible in great detail. You already have vast knowledge and Dave will feel threatened by that. Dave targets naive and vulnerable people who are far less likely to challenge him. Joy falls into that category. She's another of McKay's sock puppets.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2012 01:03AM by Apollo.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: Apollo ()
Date: August 12, 2012 10:51AM

The Following picture shows Jeremy Kronmiller, Jayme Kronmiller and Grace Hill-Speed attending an LA Catholic Worker event last year. All three appear to be running this site [] which is a recruitment site for a Jesus Christians breakaway group.

They may have good intentions however I think it's important that the LA Catholic Workers are at least warned about these people. They may be using the LA Catholic Workers to seek potential victims/followers for Dave McKay. People must be wary of this.

[Moderator's note: Posting contact information is against the rules of this message board.]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2012 01:58AM by rrmoderator.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay (thread 2)
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: August 29, 2012 10:52PM

See []

Steve Hassan has been mentioned on this thread and others regarding his work. Interesting review of Steven Hassan's latest book by a well-known cult expert and psychologist.

Third installment of Steven Hassan’s trilogy adds little understanding

August 28, 2012

By Cathleen A. Mann, PhD


Steven Hassan’s latest book, Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs, just released in summer, 2012, is the latest in what can be seen as a trilogy of sorts, starting with Combatting Mind Control in 1988 and then Releasing the Bonds in 2000. A large portion of the material in his latest book is a verbatim repetition of material from Releasing the Bonds. In his most recent book, Hassan reports that his sister was the impetus to changing his “approach” in interaction away from interventions, an activity that Hassan has been involved in for over 30 years. In the preface to this book, Hassan repeats the story of his introduction to and his exit from the Unification Church (Moonies) and how that exit helped him find his life work of education and liberation from “mind control cults”.

However, it is notable that in this third book, Hassan has greatly expanded his target audience due to what he says is cult activity “increasing exponentially,” and the “rise of the Internet”. Since Hassan maintains a substantial Internet presence through his Web site,, it could be argued that he has increased public sensitivity to cults, thereby magnifying the importance of his solutions, as well as providing a forum where he can extensively promote his own theories and agenda.

“Cults are on the rise” seems to be the theme of this latest book. But there is no proof of this claim. Hassan offers no scientific study or survey with statistics to prove his theory. It may be that “cults are on a downward turn,” or perhaps “cults have stayed the same”. These possibilities may not help in the marketing and sale of books, but they are two equal possibilities. Of course none of these statements regarding the growth or decline of cults is based upon scientific evidence. Hassan’s theories are not genuinely informative in any factual sense.

It seems to me that the Hassan’s purpose at conflating cult numbers is to frighten people and provide him with a marketing tool to sell books, rather than genuinely seeing so many groups and/or relationships as somehow being “cult-like”. He certainly hasn’t proven otherwise in this book.

It’s interesting to note that Mr. Hassan has written the preface to his new book. In the preface he offers the usual anecdotes and testimonies to his success. Hassan defines both the problem and the cure as “cult like traits seen at every level of society.” Postulating his theory about an overwhelming societal problem, Mr. Hassan then offers his own unique solution.

Defining terms

It is important to note that within his third book Hassan has added new ingredients to his definition of a cult. He claims in the first chapter that a cult uses (1) authoritarian leadership, (2) deception, and (3) destructive mind control. The title of his new book now mentions “beliefs,” but this is not in his definition. It is troubling that a book supposedly written to educate the public about cults would even enter into the area of “beliefs,” when almost all cult educators and experts don’t focus on beliefs, but rather on harmful practices. In fact, it is a myth that cults are solely defined by beliefs. After all, the First amendment or Establishment Clause of the US Constitution guarantees the freedom of religion, which includes the right to believe whatever you wish. Hassan persists in using the term “destructive mind control,” which is not term used in any legal setting and that has no real meaning. Mind control seems quite ominous and rather sensational, but this term does nothing to further the discussion about the dynamics of cults and how they operate. The research done in this area does not mention the term “mind control,” but uses terms such as “undue influence”, which express a more precise and exact meaning.

Ultimate authority

Steve Hassan’s Twitter handle also can be seen as an interesting example of his problem with defining terms and labels. His Twitter handle is “cult expert”. Being qualified and in a court of law as an expert is typically meaningful proof of expertise.

But Mr. Hassan has never provided expert testimony in a court of law. What authority then, outside of Hassan himself, has officially recognized him as an expert concerning cults? Has some authority recognized Hassan as an expert in anything?

Steve Hassan’s latest book, just like the one before it, is self-published. If Mr. Hassan were in fact “the #1 exit counselor,” surely he could find a publisher. Having a publisher would bring in the much needed contribution of objective professional editing, and perhaps a peer review process, which would have made this a better and more credible book.

Starting with page 6, Hassan describes what he calls “common cult scenarios”. These accounts may be the factual descriptions of actual cases or composites, but they read like the most sensational examples of cult scenarios. Hassan repeatedly places himself at the center of these brief case examples as the hero. He never fails to come up with just the right thing to say to successfully get through to a cult member. Once again this fits a familiar pattern. Just like Hassan’s statement about the rise of cults, these scenarios appear self-serving, designed to elevate Mr. Hassan to a pedestal. Apparently, he is the one that can snap people out of a cult with just one or two artful remarks. He thus sets himself up as the ultimate authority on what to say and when to say it. There is no mention of similarly artful things, which family members can say, even though the supposed purpose of this book is “helping loved ones” out of cults. The definition of cult put forth by Mr. Hassan could be applied to many groups. He offers insufficient distinction between what he considers a cult and what might be considered an ordinary group. The message in this book seems to be that Steve Hassan has somehow become the final arbiter who will define such things for everyone.

Borrowing ideas

In Chapter 2, Hassan introduces Lifton’s eight criteria or psychological themes for thought control, another term used to define “mind control,” even though Lifton never used the words mind control in his work. Hassan also introduces Singer’s 6 criteria and brings in the social psychology construct of cognitive dissonance. Even though Hassan names the origins of these ideas, nowhere in the body of his book within any chapter does he include properly cited references. In fact, the reader is told near the end of the book that a bibliography is not available, but rather can be found at Hassan’s Web site. This is certainly not in keeping with any protocol of academic writing and seems like a device to minimize as much as possible the owners of the ideas that Hassan claims as his. Not including such text references when you have depended upon the ideas of others might be considered something akin to plagiarism.

In my opinion proper distinctions are not sufficiently made regarding what are actually Hassan’s purported ideas and the ideas he has copied from others, which have not been given proper attribution. And providing a general bibliography on a Web site simply does not meet either the academic criteria or ethical responsibility regarding meaningful attribution. Although Hassan is obviously not bound by such academic codes of honor, borrowing the ideas of others without citing them has frequently resulted in the expulsion of students from graduate school programs. No reputable academic journal would accept or countenance such omissions. Has Hassan fallen into an academic trap? Does he believe that what he learned from others years ago has somehow now been transformed into his own ideas? Is he somehow convinced that he now owns those ideas? The citation of sources is always an academic requirement and should be an author’s ethical responsibility, regardless of how long ago someone might have been introduced to the material.

The penchant that Steve Hassan has for borrowing upon the ideas of others without specifically cited attribution should be glaringly apparent to anyone familiar with Neuro-linguistic Programming (NLP). According to Mr. Hassan’s first book Combatting Cult Mind Control; he has studied NLP extensively with its founders. He has also described how NLP and the writings of its predecessors influenced the development of his own cult intervention model. In Hassan’s latest book (p. 208-214) he discusses concepts and techniques that come from NLP such as Visual Kinesthetic Dissociation and the idea of representational systems. But he fails to cite their source. Hassan makes no mention of NLP whatsoever, nevertheless borrowing from it quite heavily. This is especially troubling, given that NLP remains highly controversial amongst people that study cults, particularly because it can be seen as a manipulative technique of persuasion. NLP also poses an ethical dilemma when used within the context of cult intervention work. The integrity of an intervention and for that matter the interventionist is compromised by the use of such deliberately deceptive techniques and manipulation.

BITE model

On page 23, Hassan introduces what he describes as the powerful BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional control) model, something that he seems to see as a superior definition of the manipulation involved within cults. Much of the BITE model is borrowed material from a 30 year long tradition of social psychological research. In reading the elements of the BITE model within Hassan’s current book, that model has now been greatly expanded from his previous two books. The BITE model he now proposes is so broad that it could be applied a very wide array of groups. What is troubling is that Hassan has not provided any guidelines to separate out the groups, which might warrant the cult label and those that do not. The BITE model, as now applied by Hassan, has become a kind of philosophic construct not grounded in facts, but rather theories, many of them borrowed from others.


This composite philosophical approach as now devised by Mr. Hassan might be called “Hassanology”. In the world of cults Hassanology essentially depicts Steve Hassan as the ultimate savior. He is a hammer, and there is an ever expanding list of groups to be seen as nails. As they say, “When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail”. Of course this might once again simply reflect a convenient marketing strategy.

Hassan, repeating themes from his previous two books, introduces on page 52, this idea of dual identities, i.e. a pre-cult identity and a cult identity. There is no evidence of a cult identity v. a pre-cult identity. It is not even established that human behavior works in this way. These are not constructs that are generally accepted in psychology or professional counseling. These claims exist entirely within the confines “Hassanology”. Again, the tone of Mr. Hassan’s book is that these beliefs are true, rather than just one person’s untested ideas.

Another troubling claim is that Hassan believes that all cult members suffer from phobias (p.56). Again, Hassan presents his idea as an absolute truth, ignoring the fact that there is no scientific theory and/or scientific evidence to back it up. Hassan seems to think that his ideas on phobias mesh with his claim that all cults practice hypnosis. He doesn’t acknowledge any exceptions. According to Mr. Hassan all cults do these things. It is true that many cults teach members that leaving the group is wrong or bad, but where are the scientific studies that conclusively demonstrate that this practice constitutes phobia indoctrination?

Strategic interaction Approach

In Chapter 3, Hassan re-introduces his intervention model, the Strategic interaction Approach (SIA). He states that this model will “promote change and encourage growth in the family as well as in the cult member” (p. 36). Mr. Hassan promotes this model as the preferred alternative to “old style” deprogramming and/or “exit counseling”. However, what Hassan does not discuss here or for that matter in his two preceding books, is that his approach includes elements of counseling. And there is nothing specifically mentioned about the cult member being counseled explicitly understanding that they are participating in counseling, i.e. informed consent. In fact, it appears that Hassan does not see the need to offer his SIA counseling as a matter of choice, but instead uses the family dynamic as tool to keep the cult member talking and then to spring his counseling upon them without informed consent. All professional counseling requires such an understanding and explicit consent before it begins. Counseling, by its very nature, is persuasive and constitutes an unequal power dynamic. A licensed professional counselor that does not know this can do harm to people. People must agree and be amenable to receiving counseling, regardless of what the setting or stated goal may be. The ends do not justify the means. This principle is often cited concerning the questionable behavior of cults, and should apply to those attempting to help cult members as well.

It is important at this juncture to point out that there is really nothing new or unique about the SIA approach. It merely represents a reworking of family systems theory, with no credit given by Hassan to its pioneers, such as expert family systems practitioners Virginia Satir or the Milan Family System theorists. SIA relies heavily on the body of theory and practice within family systems. Hassan’s remarks about the superiority of the SIA over exit counseling within his books is a thinly disguised attempt to say his method is fundamentally more effective, and therefore has better results. However, nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results or what constitutes a successful SIA type of family work with a cult member. Yes, Hassan provides anecdotal evidence selectively through testimonials, but there is no way to check if these are legitimate or edited for content. These testimonials are always glowing and positive, which is one of the major drawbacks to using testimonials; it’s deceiving and engenders the idea that your work with cult members is superior, always successful, and has better outcomes than any other approach. This is why professional organizations such as the APA (American Psychological Association) have discouraged reliance upon testimonials. In contrast, one of the defining characteristics of pseudoscience is an over reliance on such anecdotal evidence, rather than scientific study.

Is the SIA approach the best approach? What happens when a cult member does not have a family suitable for the SIA approach? Is that situation ignored? The SIA approach, as advertised, has the family doing the bulk of the work and seems to include both deception and emotional blackmail to make it work. Current cult members are never told they are facing an intervention. They are not told they will be subjected to counseling. And they are in a situation where family members confront them with family issues and disappointments, often in a very emotional way, which may be used to persuade the cult member to leave the group.

In Chapter 13, the last chapter in the book, Hassan conjures up possible solutions to the “cult problem”. First, he suggests more involvement by the legal system. Apparently he doesn’t realize that the legal system is already actively involved in sorting through cult issues. Perhaps Mr. Hassan’s ignorance of this fact is because he has never testified in any legal proceeding. Second, Hassan calls for action by mental health professionals to join the “cause,” and that they should be trained in his SIA approach. However, such training would be of questionable value and essentially redundant, since SIA is merely family systems, which is quite familiar to mental health professionals. In what appears to be a contradiction, he also states that people can use his book to develop their own approach, working with their family members themselves. Why then the need to gather a group of mental health professionals under Mr. Hassan’s guidance if families can do this independently? He seems to cotradict himself.


Besides the problem of repeatedly borrowing other people’s ideas without cited attribution and a lack of objective evidence to prove his theories, Hassan’s latest book gives the impression that he sees his methodology as the only way. It’s curious that he includes pages on how to battle his critics. Isn’t it possible that other ideas might be valid? At the very least, extraordinary claims should require extraordinary evidence. Or has Hassanology become an “absolute science”?

It is interesting to note that on page 25 under the condition “thought control,” is listed the “[r]ejection of rational analysis, critical thinking and constructive criticism”. This is an excellent point and one that should be followed by every cult critic, cult interventionist, professional counselor, or expert. This would include accepting criticism without becoming defensive and the ability to see and correct problems. Debate should be based upon rational analysis. A person working in the cult recovery or education field should endeavor to emulate these characteristics. It is incumbent upon him or her to model this behavior, as it is the rejection of such values that quite often forms the basis for criticizing the leaders and dynamics of cults.

Cathleen A. Mann has a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994. Dr. Mann has done research regarding cult formation and the recruiting and retention practices of high demand groups. She has been court qualified as an expert in 7 states.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2012 10:53PM by rrmoderator.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: August 29, 2012 11:31PM

The Catholic Worker movement has an honored reputation in many quarters.

And the LA Catholic Worker house has been on LA's skid row for decades, caring for the most despised and friendless in the city.

A friend who had to clear the house out after her parents died made over all the food and kitchen equipement (considerable) to the LA Catholic Worker house.

Yes, they should be warned to do fact checking. When one has acquired a good reputation, less than honorable groups seek to exploit it.

I call it seeking derivative legitimacy.

If the CW scolds you not to pass judgement for trying to warn them, remind them that Jesus didnt hesitate to pass judgement when the money lenders had invaded the temple.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 30, 2012 05:16AM

Yes, they should be warned to do fact checking. When one has acquired a good reputation, less than honorable groups seek to exploit it.

I call it seeking derivative legitimacy.

The COG/Family (the cult of which the McKays were once acitve members) refers to such "derivative legitamacy" practices as "Invading the Churches". There is truly nothing new, under the sun. See also Ephesians 5:11-12.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: Apollo ()
Date: September 11, 2012 05:21AM


This Account Has Been Suspended

Hmmmmm, could this be due to an impending investigation into Mr McKay's affairs?

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: September 11, 2012 05:26AM

Gosh, I sure hope so.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: Apollo ()
Date: September 13, 2012 07:00AM


This Account Has Been Suspended

Hmmmmm, could this be due to an impending investigation into Mr McKay's affairs?

The Jesus Christians cult recruitment site has reopened!

Who knows what the problem was, perhaps McKay is struggling to pay the bills?

That would certainly be an encouraging sign. It would suggest his flock are no longer funding his lavish lifestyle.

In other news, Denise Matteau is back on the scene. She's still ranting away about Rick, Zeuszor and Malcolm.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," Dave McKay, the "Truth Believers", "cult"
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: September 13, 2012 07:36AM

Let's not go off topic about Denise Matteau.

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