Current Page: 77 of 154
Re: James Arthur Ray - Matthew B. James hypnosis, NLP
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 09, 2010 06:48PM

Its interesting how many new agey belief systems always pathologize healthy direct psychological self-defense mechanisms, and seek to soften healthy boundaries, and make people more "accepting" of outrageous and bad behavior.
Some of the direct rebukes of James Ray on Twitter are excellent, and are certainly extremely healthy. For example, the STFU response directed at James Ray, is direct and accurate.

In the real world, if a person is approached by one of these new agey recruiters, or even a cult recruiter, if a person picks up on their manipulations, a powerful direct STFU response can drive that recruiter away for good, in one shot. They are trained not to waste time on critical thinkers, and those who powerfully reject them.
They just move on to soft-targets.
So it is very interesting how the new agey cultic mindset is always being primed in the opposite direction to powerful psychological boundaries.



Its also interesting how defensive many NLPers are, when NLP is shown to be linked to someone like James Ray. In fact, through Matthew B. James, Tad James and Tony Robbins, James Ray was exposed to most of the techniques used in NLP modeled advanced sales, persuasion and conversational hypnosis.

There is a lot of general criticism of NLP in various place, even in wikipedia. [en.wikipedia.org]
And the SkepDic article is written by a non-NLPer who makes many good points. www.skepdic.com/neurolin.html
But even the criticisms don't really get into the incredibly expensive "NLP trainings" sold, and how people like Tad James and Matthew B. James, and many others have made fortunes from those unregulated sales processes called "NLP trainings".


Most interesting though, is that there is a huge sub-industry of NLP based persuasion engineering and hypnosis, some call it NLP hypnotic persuasion, which is directly connected with advanced sales processes and also the "seduction" industry. Even a basic search of the internet shows massive amounts of deceptive products being sold along those lines.
The amazing thing is that trained and well-known NLPers who actually sell and market similar materials, are the exact same people who will literally deny it even exists.
Of course, they just use a semantic reframing tactic, and Preframing, and Innoculations [forum.culteducation.com] [forum.culteducation.com] like Stever Robbins, as part of their own sales process.

But in reality, probably less than 1/10th of 1% of the public has even heard there is such a thing as that type of covert persuasion, never mind how it works, or doesn't work.
And its fascinating that there are really no books, or even websites that go into the details of the ABUSES of these techniques.
But there are hundreds of websites that sell it.

And when anyone who knows how these techniques operate points them out, the invariable response is denial, deflection, distortion, lies and propaganda.
It might be somewhat like, if a person were to say their Toyota car killed a family member, due to the greed, lies and negligence of the Toyota company. And then another person who sells Toyota's responds by saying they drive a Toyota and get to work fine.
Its totally irrelevant.
That is the response of many, if not all, NLPers when one points out how the NLP hypnosis and persuasion techniques have been abused, and have hurt, bankrupted, and led to serious harm to many people.
The response is often...well, I do NLP swish patterns and it never hurt me, or to say that person X doesn't do NLP, they do something else, used as a deflection.

Worse, much of the classic NLP "content" is used as a distraction by the most advanced NLPers to do more complex techniques on people at the same time. That is a fact.
There is serious arrogance in parts of the NLP field, where they think people are too stupid to understand what is really going on, so they will just "do it to them" while distracting them with other generic NLP content. That is also a fact of harsh reality, that is what goes on.

Meanwhile, many of those people get charged thousands and tens of thousands of dollars, by using NLP modeled advanced sales techniques, which have been blended with advanced conversational persuasion techniques, and anything else they can get their hands on, including old fashioned lying.

The bottom line is that there are hundreds and hundreds of people in the NLP persuasion related fields, who still are trying to make as much money as possible using all of the techniques in their arsenal.
One of the most basic harsh lessons learned in the NLP school of hard-knocks, is that the "leaders" in the NLP field will make up Stories as their main technique, and those stories are not "true", but are designed as multi-modal persuasion.
A normal person calls that "lying", but the NLPers have had that trained out of them.
It really is a jungle in that area, and the untrained person doesn't have much of a chance to make sense out of it.
Which is why the NLPers and their related companies and businesses get so hysterical when its shown that in fact, abusers like a James Ray have picked up many of those same NLP based persuasion techniques over the years, and have used them to powerfully manipulate and hurt others for their own personal advantage.
A main techniques used by the NLPers is to create NLP wars of confusion over word definitions, which works great to create confusion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2010 06:55PM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray - Matthew B. James hypnosis, NLP
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 09, 2010 07:29PM

JamesARay: "All things work together for good for those who love God." When you focus love and good upon all things you get what you give. [twitter.com]


James Ray seems to be trying to respond to all of the rebukes being made toward him on Twitter, in a passive-aggressive way.
Also, to try to send to his followers, that they need to focus "love and good" on God, and James Ray has already set himself up as being the James Ray "God" of USE (universal source energy).
So he is trying to manage their mental focus, to try and block any "negative" thought they might have about James Ray.

Also, if you DON'T focus "love and good" on all things, he is implying "you get what you give" as well.
That is a threat they use in New Thought, that if you DON'T do constant postive thinking, the universe will punish you with CANCER and other terrible things.

James Ray is trying to use the most vulgar and disgusting techniques that are available to him.
Truly a sick and sociopathic individual, and one hopes that real "justice" prevails.

Options: ReplyQuote
James Ray - Matthew B. James NLP.com, trance induction, metaphors
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 09, 2010 08:07PM

More proof that James Arthur Ray did in fact have very extensive NLP training in all of the various NLP tech, like group hypnosis, persuasion, trance induction, nested loops, embedded metaphors and all the NLP seminar techniques.
The brazen lies from the NLPers on this issue are disgusting, but are to be expected as standard procedure, no surprises there. They just want to misdirect the "stupid public" away from the obvious NLP techniques that were used and abused by James Ray.
The professional NLP bullshit artists could also use a little STFU therapy.
But that is how they roll...



-----------------------------
QUOTE Matthew B. James: [www.nlp.com]
"I have trained some of those people that you may be familiar with, such as Chris Howard and James Ray. This training is the final piece that integrates all the NLP trainings into one."

"You will easily learn the exceptional techniques of NLP as applied to presentation skills, and be able to use them immediately. These areas include the use of physiology, energy, state control and elicitation, stage anchoring, group rapport, trance induction, nested loops, utilizing questions, pre-teaching, presentation design, and much, much more!"

Some of the Skills We Cover:
Teaching to the conscious and unconscious minds simultaneously
Identifying unconscious leaders and gaining group rapport
Creating effective stage anchors
Integrating any content into a flawless format for effective presentations every time
Using language patterns, nested loops and multiple embedded metaphors
Conducting successful demonstrations and how to select subjects
Utilizing and handling objections, questions, and "hecklers"
...


____________quote excerpt_____________

www.nlp.com/training_seminars_ttc.aspx

The Trainer's Training - Using NLP to Become an Amazing Presenter
Trainer's Training and Evaluation
What does it take to be an Amazing Presenter?
A word from Dr. Matthew B.James... Master Presenters are created, not born. Join us in this brand new training that teaches you to be the best communicator on the planet, using the tools and techniques of NLP.
...
When you train with me, you'll find that I share what I have learned as openly and directly as possible. I'd like you to benefit from my experience, my mistakes, and my successes. I have trained some of those people that you may be familiar with, such as Chris Howard and James Ray. This training is the final piece that integrates all the NLP trainings into one.

I hope you join me.

Why study with us?
1. Trainers of the Highest Quality & Expertise
Choose your teachers wisely. For a training that is dedicated to teaching you how to present, the excellence of the training staff is of the utmost importance. Matthew B. James and our expert team of Trainers and Master Trainers are some of the world's leading NLP trainers and innovators. We provide you with only the best-the most qualified, skilled, knowledgeable, and personable trainers who are masters in Accelerated Human Change Technology. ...

2. Record Of Success
We've been conducting NLP trainings since 1982 and Trainer's Trainings since 1985. According to Dunn and Bradstreet figures since 1992, we're one of the largest NLP training organizations in the world. ...

3. Walk The Talk
To teach something is not necessarily an indicator of having mastered it, yet the great teachers of the world "walk their talk." They live, breathe and exude the principles of their teachings. It is important for knowledge and behavior to be congruent. Amazingly, there are some very famous NLP trainers who don't demonstrate the basic skill of rapport on a regular basis! At The Empowerment Partnership we like to consistently lead and teach by example.

4. Ample Opportunity to Present & Receive Immediate Feedback
We have a very high ratio of staff to students in our courses. For this event, we will have 20 Certified Trainers who will support you to be the best you can be! Throughout the training, you will actually be presenting several times a day. You will not only be receiving immediate, quality feedback, you will have the opportunity to give feedback which reinforces your own learning. These are indicators of real value in a Trainer's Training.

5. Challenging For All Levels of Expertise
No matter how experienced you may already be, novice or expert, this training has a lot to offer. You will be amazed at how quickly you improve, and how quickly others do as well, even in just the first few days-not just the "gifted" presenters, but everyone! You will easily learn the exceptional techniques of NLP as applied to presentation skills, and be able to use them immediately. These areas include the use of physiology, energy, state control and elicitation, stage anchoring, group rapport, trance induction, nested loops, utilizing questions, pre-teaching, presentation design, and much, much more! You will definitely be stretched to your potential!

6. Presentation Methods
There are a variety of NLP trainers in the world. There are trainers who are delightful entertainers, fantastic storytellers, great hypnotists, and those who impart useful information and demonstrate great talent. We think it takes all of these skills plus a multi-media approach to present a great Trainer's Training, and this is where we place our emphasis. ...

7. Length Of Training
It's been our experience after having numerous successful Trainer's Trainings, that it takes more than six or seven days to have a thorough training from which you can leave with integrated skills and confidence that last. While there's no set required amount of time for an effective Trainer's Training, you need time to prepare and make presentations, and receive quality feedback. You also need time to experience great presenters in action, and time to master the variety of material covered. Even though we are very effective with accelerated formats, we think it takes longer to conduct a great Trainer's Training. With our training design, we offer the leading-edge of excellence. We've designed a powerful training to take you well beyond just basic presentation skills.

8. Training Versatility
It is good to know the range of experience and expertise of anyone with whom you study. The Empowerment Partnership presents some of the best NLP trainings in the world. We also present a variety of other valuable, advanced technologies that complement, supplement, and extend the benefits learned and achieved with NLP. We teach the breakthrough Empowering Your Life Seminar to the general public. We teach business people to reach new levels of effectiveness with innovative communication and sales skills. We teach Time Empowerment Techniques and hypnosis to the therapeutic community. We teach advanced learning and teaching strategies to educators. We even teach the ancient Hawaiian wisdom of Huna to people with more esoteric interests. All of these different trainings have one thing in common-our participants love them! You need versatile skills to present in different markets, and we prepare you well.

...
Trainer's Evaluation & Certification-providing you with the opportunity to be certified as an NLP Trainer if you wish. Most organizations aren't qualified to offer that.
Permission to use our training manuals for Practitioner and Master Practitioner trainings-helping you get started right away if you do want to become a trainer.
Audio collections of complete trainings-assisting you to review the material and design your own trainings.
Ongoing support via e-mail or phone -encouraging your continued growth.
Advanced Professional Development- offering the means for becoming a Master Trainer of NLP.
Further accreditation and program authorization-empowering you to expand your offerings.

Prerequisites:
1. Certification as an NLP Practitioner & Master Practitioner is required.
2. All participants will be screened by the Empowerment Partnership prior to admission.

Who Benefits From This Training?
This training course teaches people how to present to groups, and how to function masterfully in group environments. The skills and behaviors you will learn are extremely beneficial and applicable in a wide variety of contexts. Anyone desiring to give presentations or speeches, work more effectively in team environments, handle meetings more efficiently, lead groups, or conduct professional trainings, seminars or workshops will find this training to be of tremendous value. This training will make the difference between being a good presenter... and being an Excellent Presenter!


Customized Topics
During the training, you will participate in a presentation that will focus on a specific NLP practitioner level topic. This will allow you the opportunity to more fully integrate the NLP information that you already know, while also mastering new material and skills. You will also do another presentation of your choice on any topic, as well as a demonstration. There is a formal evaluation where you will be given continual feedback about your presentations and demonstration. You will be utilizing what you learned in your NLP trainings and in this current training. There is no written test.


Learn to be Comfortable & Confident as a Presenter
This training gives you the knowledge and tools you need to be a polished presenter, and if you are like most people, you also want to be comfortable, confident, and resourceful. ...


Some of the Skills We Cover:

Teaching to the conscious and unconscious minds simultaneously
Creating moment-to-moment state control in yourself & your audience
Working with the group process, common challenges and solutions
Utilizing and controlling energy in the room
Identifying unconscious leaders and gaining group rapport
Creating effective stage anchors
Integrating any content into a flawless format for effective presentations every time
Using language patterns, nested loops and multiple embedded metaphors
Demonstrating content as you present
Expanding vocal flexibility
Utilizing your physiology and language to empower your presenting
Conducting successful demonstrations and how to select subjects
Understanding learning styles and presentation styles
Utilizing and handling objections, questions, and "hecklers"
Giving effective feedback
Trade secrets and tricks of the trade

______________________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2010 08:20PM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Ray - Matthew B. James NLP.com, trance induction, metaphors
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 09, 2010 08:44PM

Matthew B. James (and his people who taught James Ray NLP, as shown below) were also into the abusive Siddha-Yoga cult and Muktananda.
Muktananda also had his fingers into the NLP group persuasion tech, fusing the modern persuasion techniques and "spiritual" practices. This was explored in the Byron Katie thread, and this would be where the SYDA "install the guru in your body meditation" would have come from, that came from NLPers.

Gurumayi, Install the guru in your body Induction, NLP [forum.culteducation.com]
James Ray also knows exactly how to Install the Guru into followers.

______quote_______________
www.incomepropertyinvestmenttalk.com/james.htm
Matthew B. James, international trainer, lecturer, and educator, embodies the principles he teaches. While devoting himself to the integrity of his spiritual path, Dr. James has built an international firm dedicated to personal transformation and heads a university, which provides in-depth education in consciousness studies. Throughout his work, Dr. James weaves effective modern technologies with the timeless wisdom of ancient spiritual paths.
Dr. James has been immersed in spiritual studies and the science of human potential since the age of five. He began his training in childhood, learning meditation and siddha yoga directly from such teachers as Baba Muktananda, as well as studying Huna, the primordial science of consciousness of Hawaii, from Uncle George Na'ope.

In the '80's, Dr. James studied directly with several well-known teachers in the human potential movement, including Tony Robbins and Richard Bandler. In the last fifteen years, Dr. James has become the Trainer of Trainers himself; James Ray, Chris Howard, and several other prominent trainers have spent time studying with his organization, learning both the modern techniques for personal transformation and the ancient practices of Huna.

_____________________________



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2010 08:47PM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 09, 2010 11:00PM

Anticult wrote about this on July 19, 2008 08:45AM.

Quote

Because that is a phrase right out of NLP-hypnosis modeling.
"Install the X in your body".
Just substitute the word INDUCTION for "meditation".

"Install the Guru in your body (hypnotic) Induction".

That is flat-out hypnotic engineering out of NLP. (NLP is just a technical and systematic way to model-copy anything).
To take the image of the Guru and INSTALL it in the BODY, is incredibly powerful. And that does not go away quickly, it can sit there for many years, if not permanently, if you don't get it out.

That is very profound. If people went through that type of deep hypnotic conditioning, and then just walked away from Gurumayi, they would feel a deep hole in their psyche. And they would run and plug that emotional hole with someone like Byron Katie, or whomever.

Read the rest here. *Take care to read the posts following the one from which a brief bit is quoted. For it gives information on how to uninstall the guru introject. Anticult noted that if a guru does this installation of image process and then makes him or herself unavailable to disciples afterwards, that is potent--and can leave the disciples trapped, especially if they are totally unaware that this very specific 'tech' was done on them.

(How you you know to ask for antidote to a specific toxic drug if you are not even told what drug you've been given?)

[forum.culteducation.com]

A discussion thread on use of American LGAT 'tech' within Siddha and SYDA yoga is given here.

[forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2010 11:04PM by corboy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray -NLP, Robert Dilts, Wyatt Woodsmall
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 10, 2010 10:13AM

Its an important link.
Matthew B. James "says" he was doing spiritual training at age 5, and was exposed to Muktananda Siddha Yoga in childhood.
Of course that would come from his parents and father Tad James who was one of the main people in NLP hypnosis in the early years.

Many NLPers took the NLP modeling/copying tech, and applied it to "spiritual" pursuits. They would think, why spend 10 years becoming "enlightened" when you can use NLP to model it and attain it in a weekend?

Robert Dilts wrote a monograph called "Cognitive Patterns of Jesus of Nazareth" [www.nlpu.com]
Wyatt Woodsmall did the monograph called "Beyond Self Awareness Beyond: An Integration of Neuro-linguistic Programming and Spirituality"
An NLP Primer on Spirituality by Brian Van der Horst [www.vxm.com]

There were tons of manuals like that all over the place.
James Ray studied NLP with Matthew B. James, and Matthew James was bragging all over the place that he trained James Ray as Ray was famous. Then Ray gets in trouble, and immediately Matthew James does his Pre-Framing, saying he only taught James Ray Huna, which is obviously total bullshit. As proven here by his own words, he taught James Ray the entire NLP persuasion and hypnosis package, which is very substantial.

Anyone trained in those same methods can instantly see the patterns being run.
And its not just "spirituality" of course, they also modeled/copied SALES and persuasion, LGAT seminars, and many other things, and they all began to fuse together into a body of knowledge outlined above.

Muktananda interacted with some of those same people, perhaps even Tad James who mentions Muk here [www.ancienthuna.com] and they cross-fertilized eachothers techniques.

For example, they could go to a Guru like Muktananda, and ask him to find a few "ideal followers". Then the NLpers could go and interview and study those people, and how they represent the Guru inside their brain/mind, with great specificity. So they may have found the ideal follower had an Image of the Guru installed in their "body", in their imagination. So they go through the entire process, and come up with a process to RAPIDLY Install the Guru. They can then take a New Believer, and turn them into a True Believer in ONE SESSION, and make it stick.

They did that with anything they could get their hands on, and that was in the 1980's.
So decades later that powerful knowledge has been refined and can be studied very rapidly.

Byron Katie certainly studied many of the same conversational hypnosis techniques, which was also proven in the Byron Katie thread. Stever Robbins, a bigshot NLPer can see EVERY DETAIL of that of course, and loves Byron Katie as she makes it invisible as the technique is concealed inside the Stories. But Stever Robbins has denied Byron Katie does any of that, for obvious reasons. Once the subjects can see what is going on, it doesn't work properly.

So they lie lie lie lie.

Some of the basic info was not designed to be misused on vulnerable people, but out of intellectual curiousity. But then its a short step to use it to make money, and make serious money, quickly.
The temptation is out there for the NLP experts. Ever make $50,000 in a weekend?
And they can make a lot more than that.
There are hundreds of them who want to make millions and tens of millions, and they will do almost anything to get it.
James Ray fell into that same NLP persuasion hypnosis material, and other material, and he recklessly used it, and harmed many people. For anyone who understands how powerful the material is, what he did to Colleen Conaway and the others would make anyone with a conscience weep. Yes, the material can be used to very rapidly absolutely hammer and split-open the minds of a "civillian" and its not technically hard to do, and the sociopaths will do it to soccer moms.

But the bigshot NLPers, they choose to lie, and to deny, to protect their own business interests. They try to reframe, redefine and play semantics, instead of educating the public.
They see their names pop up from Google alerts, but they know they can't dupe people who know exactly how the techniques work, only the general public without the specialized training can be duped, and easily duped, usually with just a simple lie, or a complex lie if needed.
The few bigshot NLPers who are somewhat "ethical" are really no better, as they close their eyes to the abuses, and say nothing, as they don't want to hurt their own careers.
So the carnage continues, year after year, decade after decade.
And its getting worse, as the practitioners get more skilled and subtle, and are able to infuse the techniques invisibly into various New Age belief systems.

The senior NLPers don't get upset when they see all the persuasion techniques hidden and concealed in a New Age story, they get excited, and want a piece of that action themselves.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray -NLP, Robert Dilts, Wyatt Woodsmall
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 10, 2010 09:35PM

Make sure to check out the article by Robert Dilts on Modeling Jesus, from above.
Cognitive Patterns of Jesus of Nazareth [www.nlpu.com]

Not enough time to go into all of it right now, but Robert Dilts has been one of the primary people in NLP, and here is "saying" he is going to use NLP to model the "miracle healings" of Jesus, and also claims he's seen his own miracle cures, from people changing their beliefs. (he slips that in half-way through, without any proof at all, of course).

What is most important to remember, is that guys like Robert Dilts are very clever people. When he is writing an article like that, its NOT simply about the alleged content. He is doing TO you what he is talking about in the content.
He is talking about Jesus and belief change and miracle healing and the metaphors used by Jesus in the bible, and those are also meant to modify what you think on those subjects in relation to Robert Dilts and NLP for that matter.
Using stories about metaphors as a metaphor.

The most highly skilled are able to get people to modify their beliefs, without the person even knowing it, and pretty much not being able to resist, as they don't know its happening.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray -NLP, Robert Dilts, Wyatt Woodsmall
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 10, 2010 10:33PM

Another update from Cassandra Yorgey.
Among other things, it appears they were setting up the obstruction of justice situation, about the missing Spiritual Warrior binders, the voicemail, the hard-drives. Obstruction of justice, people get sent to jail for that very frequently.


[www.examiner.com] James Ray Death Lodge interview: Josh Fredrickson part 4

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray -NLP, Robert Dilts, Wyatt Woodsmall
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 11, 2010 07:03AM

' Robert Dilts has been one of the primary people in NLP, and here is "saying" he is going to use NLP to model the "miracle healings" of Jesus, and also claims he's seen his own miracle cures, from people changing their beliefs. (he slips that in half-way through, without any proof at all, of course).'

While changing your beliefs can change the way you look at things in life and can give a new perspective that is personally helpful, I doubt there is a documented case yet of a belief change that can cure cancer or Aids. Believing that you are cured might make you feel better about the ailment and better able to deal with some of the symptoms (eg pain control-- pain, being a brain sensation, is amenable to change by various methods) but that does not affect physiological changes in the body.
What I did get from Dilts was the way he was positioning NLP as the natural successor to Jesus and his healing, with Dilts himself as the main man.

Did it not occur to Dilts that Jesus was renowned for his use of parables, teaching stories, metaphor (just like Milton Erikson) and that the healing stories were metaphors for the change in believers minds? Perhaps he is claiming that Jesus was the first NLPer.

I tried reading the Van der Horst article but the phrase 'Einstein of Consciousness' used when referring to Wilbur struck me as so absurd that I quit at that point.
Gregory Bateson is referenced in both articles and he did some ground-breaking collaborative work with Jay Haley, John Weakland, Paul Watzlawick and others......all of whom are worth reading, IMO.

Bateson

I am trying to avoid the 'spiritual' aspect which is always contentious and have no wish to offend anyones beliefs so the following is my very personal view.
To borrow Dilts borrowings from Jesus, if you tend your garden well with the real practical things you can do, the 'spiritual' aspect takes care of itself.
Spirit means breath, nobody needs to be taught to breathe, it is so automatic that we do not realise we are doing it.
Dilts used a good metaphor about preparing the ground and weeding and watering to give the tree the best chance but the tree grows by itself. Trees grew by themselves long before we thought about gardening or even NLP.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 11, 2010 07:16AM

To me the proof that Jesus did not use 'tech' is that, according to the various narratives that became canonical books of the Bible,

1) Jesus gave full warning of the hazards of getting involved with him. He did not, according to record, have people
sign release of liability forms as a condition of discipleship

2) Jesus was betrayed by his own accountant

3) When the authorities came to arrest him, Jesus's companions deserted him

4) When Peter was accused of being a disciple, he denied it

5) Jesus went into court without an attorney--he didnt con his followers into taking the rap for him.

6) He owned no real estate and the only thing he had left were his clothes.

Stoic wrote:

"I doubt there is a documented case yet of a belief change that can cure cancer or Aids"

Just google AIDS denialism and see what comes up

[www.google.com]

[www.thebody.com]

[www.whatisaids.com]

[www.virusmyth.com]

[denyingaids.blogspot.com]

[scienceblogs.com]

Options: ReplyQuote
Current Page: 77 of 154


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.