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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 11, 2010 10:10AM

I started out by disagreeing with TAC but he's right, Dilts is a very clever man. He's come up with something to sell that has appeal to every adult on the planet.

If you look at his article as a sales puff for his book/course/seminar, he is making the implicit suggestion that he can teach his students to become miracle-working healers, just like Jesus.
This would have appeal to well-intentioned people, not just the power hungry, for who hasn't grieved the loss of a loved one from some disease or other? Grief leaves a wound, a vulnerability to be exploited.

And he is almost beyond reproach, for who wouldn't want to be like Jesus, the healer; and who would dare to say that such a goal was wrong-headed?

I wonder how much money this has made for Mr Dilts.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Robert Dilts NLP
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2010 11:00PM

Robert Dilts is one of the cleverest, and has all sorts of material.
NLP (wrongly) says that if anyone can do anything, that since you have the same neurology, you can do it too. So from that false premise, Modeling Jesus miracles is the logical step, and it works deeply on a metaphorical level as well in people's minds.
It amounts to the same pitch as the New Age Christ Consciousness, just with fancier words.

Also, the claim that Belief change (NLP or otherwise) can effect cancer, has actually been proven FALSE, time and time again, as restated in "Bright-Sided" by Barbara Ehrenreich. []
But the NLPers like this, simply ignore/deny the facts, and stick to their sales-script.
That doesn't even touch 1% of it. Deconstructing NLP and NLPers is a study unto itself, and is terribly complex.

And those are the first generation NLPers, and it gets far far worse as one moves down into the 3rd-4th generation, like guys like James Ray who learned it from others.
Even worse, they are doing the most powerful tech, and disguising it and concealing it.
As said earlier in the thread, its a nightmare.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2010 11:09PM by The Anticult.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Robert Dilts NLP
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 11, 2010 11:23PM

How much money has it made for Robert Dilts & friends, see below.
They also sell NLP "life coaching" and upsell it to being an Awakener. Sounds awfully familiar, and these guys are the "good guys" in the field.
As well, the NLP Belief Change model, literally has no objective scientific evidence to support it, there appear to be literally no studies done at all, ZERO. (unlike CBT which has hundreds, for example).
Again, not even scratching the surface.

2010 Schedule, Enrollment & Deposit Information

Seminar Topics by Robert Dilts.

[] From Coach to Awakener
"Coaching is the process of helping people and teams to perform at the peak of their abilities. ...
In recent years, the notion of coaching has evolved to include new and more comprehensive forms--executive coaching and life coaching, which can be referred to as capital "C" Coaching. Large "C" Coaching involves helping people effectively achieve outcomes on a range of levels. We guide people to learn about new environments, for instance; coach them to improve specific behavioral competencies; teach them new cognitive capabilities; mentor empowering beliefs and values; sponsor growth at the identity level; and awaken peopleĀ¹s awareness of the larger system or "field."

This book defines the types of contexts and situations which require the capital "C" Coach to focus on one of these roles--caretaker, guide, coach, teacher, mentor, sponsor, awakener--and provides a specific toolbox for each role. In other words, it provides a comprehensive tool set to be used by an effective coach to manage the entire scope of large "C" Coaching activities--from caretaking to awakening."

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Twitter STFU
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 12, 2010 12:18AM

There are some interesting Twittering going on.
There is a twitter called []

That is actually a very healthy response to sociopaths and con-artists like Ray. They want to engage people, and lure them in, but if a person can notice quickly what they are doing and just tell them to STFU, that is a barrier they cannot cross.
The sociopaths take advantage of "too nice" and decent people, who have been persuaded to improperly lower their psychological barriers to them.
But having a healthy assertive psychological barrier to sociopaths and con-artist sweet-talker seminar Gurus is essential.
And STFU says it all, in 4 letters.

Some have speculated that James Ray is having a mental breakdown with his twittering, but not a chance. Its all been consistent and to plan. He is playing the "religion" card.
Many sociopaths and other criminals hide behind religion when they get caught. There are many priests that were caught doing terrible crimes, and in almost every case, they start spewing bible quotes about forgiveness to hide behind.
Or if they claim to be innocent, crucifixion.

For James Ray, its psychological manipulation.

His most recent Tweet seems to show that he is in fact reading the angry Tweets being directed at him from dozens of people. His response is arrogant and smug.
JamesARay: [] "Love is essence of the playful and joyful prescence that cretaes the Universe"
He is getting rebuked with angry tweets, so he gives a sarcastic comment about "love", reactively written in the moment as it includes 3 typos.
His response just drips with sarcastic manipulation, in the context of what people are saying to him. He is used to making his followers feel GUILT for having healthy and normal human reactions.

James Ray is going to continue to Tweet his mindless garbage, sociopathically disconnected from the reality of what has happened to the victims. Even worse, its a deliberate provocation to the victims families and friends, while also trying to passify any followers he may have left.

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James Arthur Ray - Grant Cordone, neuro-linguistic programming
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 12, 2010 12:38AM

Don't know anything about Grant Cordone, he does his own seminars and had some past connections with James Ray, but there was a post that has some info in it on James Ray.
More James Ray links with NLP neuro-linguistic programming.

Grant Cordone []
"What do I know about this? I met James Ray over seven years ago in my home in San Diego. Ray was trying to break into the seminar business at the time and he knew that I had a successful one. He was curious about what I taught at my seminars and how I got people signed up. ....
The next time I heard about him he had supposedly returned from South America after doing a vision quest which included sleep deprivation, fasting and sweat lodges and was now intent on making this part of his seminar. Prior to this he was teaching pseudo science neuro-linguistic programming and using the chiropractor's kinesiology techniques to sell his products and seminars"

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Re: James Arthur Ray - Grant Cordone, neuro-linguistic programming
Posted by: yasmin ()
Date: March 12, 2010 01:52AM

Re thinking oneself well; like most things there is a small aspect of truth in this; there certainly can be a mind/body connection; the placebo effect is well documented (i.e. people who believe they are taking pain pills when they are really only taking sugar pills may feel pain relief).
Think there was even a study that showed patients whose anesthesiologist made a point of sitting down with them and talking to them about questions etc before surgery needed less painkiller afterwards.

And in general if you want to learn a skill it makes sense to model (or copy) someone who knows how to do it well..
As someone once said if you believe you can or you believe you can't do something; you're probably right either way.The other side to this is though, that plenty of people have died thinking they could cure their cancer with belief.

It does not seem to make sense though that while there are many people who believe thoughts alone can change internal body structure, I have never yet seen a single person change their hair color by belief alone.

My own opinion is that if you plan on healing a serious condition by thought alone, but if you, or those who you trust can''t even change their own hair color by belief alone..then you might want to consider going to a trustworthy medical practitioner instead..

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2010 01:54AM by yasmin.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Penelope ()
Date: March 12, 2010 03:28AM

On NLP, I still can't really get a clear definition of it. I was at a bookstore a few days ago and there was an "NLP For Dummies" book, I looked through it thinking it might be a bit more objective, being from that series. Still extremely vague. It did touch on the manipulation accusation, and gave the "everyone manipulates" rationalization. You just have to have integrity when you do it. Yep.

A few years ago I went to a women who practiced Reiki and hypnosis to try to help with anxiety attacks. I am completely unhypnotizable, just way to 'in my head' and uptight I guess. (I was disappointed at the time but now I think it's a great thing to know). She also practiced NLP. It was the first time I had heard of it. It sounded scientific-ish, and she told me exactly what the end result of the particular technique was supposed to be. She had me imagine an anxiety-producing situation and she told me to visualize it getting smaller and smaller, then she'd make a loud clap as she led me through each stage of visualization. So it seemed like a legitimate kind of therapy, a way of reprogramming your phobias and anxiety.

She also taught me the "kinesiology" technique, though after having to learn some actual kinesiology, the scientific kind, it's pretty offensive that anyone can claim they practice kinesiology by asking a question and pushing down on your arm. I remember at the free James Ray seminar he had us get up and practice it on each other too.

This woman was a kind-hearted and genuinely helpful person, she didn't charge in advance or pressure me to have more sessions. I have lost touch with her but hope she hasn't been taken in by the 'big sharks' of NLP.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2010 03:32AM by Penelope.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 12, 2010 04:09AM

I appreciate the point about no-one being able to change their hair colour by belief alone, so how can you expect to change deeper body pathologies. That puts it in a nutshell.

I read the first two Bandler books when they became available, there was quite a buzz and a friend got into the training. But I too found the whole concept too woolly for me to get too excited about. I was impressed by accounts of Virginia Satir in those books though, she was the primary source (along with Erikson?) that Bandler modelled for the therapeutic aspects and I studied up on her methods.

I have since then largely discounted NLP but looked at the original non-NLP people that they cite as being worthy of copying. Hey, if they are worth copying for NLP I can maybe learn something too, but without the NLP confusion quotient.
Academics (I'm not one) tend to favour primary sources for research purposes, I like to get as close as I can to form my own impression.

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Re: James Arthur Ray - NLP mastering metaphors hypno-persuasion
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 12, 2010 04:59AM

The NLP for Dummies books don't go into the advanced persuasion aspects of NLP that are being used in these other areas.
NLP has also modeled/copied SALES in great detail, and that is a separate study.
They also fused that with conversational hypnosis and advanced language patterns. It can take YEARS of study and practice to figure that stuff out.

By the way, as an aside, everyone can be "hypnotized". All it means is narrowed focussed attention.
When James Ray was telling a Story, that is "hypnosis". The entire James Ray Modern Magick seminar is hypnosis. Unfortunately most people think hypnosis is like a zombie magic show, but its not, its just focussed attention with suggestions and persuasion.

The NLP stuff with making images smaller (submodalities) and clapping, (pattern interupt, anchoring) are just cognitive-behavior modification, nothing new, NLP pretends they are, but they have been around since the 1960's. Again, that is a different area of NLP.

Robert Dilts is supposed to be one of the "good guys" in NLP, yet here he is on youtube marketing one of his DVD programs. []
You see him talk about "touching elbows" with his wife and starting a new journey in life, etc.
Well guess what? That is him beginning his understated sales process for his DVD program, and establishing a trigger with the elbow, and moving you along into that program, and his next programs.
Meanwhile his wife is into Transpersonal woo-woo, and Robert Dilts is also upselling into being an "Awakener". He clearly has some concealed "spiritual beliefs" that he is moving people into.
Why doesn't he state those up-front? Who wants to pay thousands to get unconsciously shaped into Robert Dilts belief system?

What % of the public is going to be able to see what guys like this are doing?
It just sounds like they are "talking" but they are running subtle yet powerful language-image patterns and using metaphors from first contact to move people along in the SALES process. Yes, SALES. They are not psychologists, they are experts salespeople. That is a fact of reality.
And they used their NLP modeled sales tech, to sell NLP to you.
So that is the trick, the average person just hears them talking, and sees Robert Dilts moving his hands around, mirroring, using metaphors, language patterns, but they have no idea of what is going on.
Watch the Robert Dilts vids on youtube to see a skilled understated persuasion expert.
"robert dilts"

Then you have salesmen like James Ray several steps removed, who clumsily do the same NLP persuasion tech, but apply it absolutely ruthlessly to bankrupt soccer moms and wreck their lives, and end their lives.

If the NLP bigshots really cared what was happening to people out there, they would write some books explaining what is going on. But they don't. They save it all for the advanced trainings, and charge you $8-20K-50K for it. They make a fortune in private NLP coaching.

Sadly, untrained people can't really see what is going on with the advanced NLP persuaders, all one can do is just avoid them like the plague.
Its bizarre how even some softer NLP promoters say there are some ethical NLP persuaders out there. Who? And who's ethics?
Unfortunately it can take more than 10 years in the school of hard knocks to find out what is really going down. The average everyday person doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell.
Worse, they are now concealing the advanced persuasion and language tech inside New Agey stories, and wearing pantsuits and pretending to be savants. That is why they are making the millions, and there are hundreds and thousands trying to get a piece of the action.

Robert Dilts could expose the entire thing in one book, but he won't, that is where he makes his money too. Its the senior NLPers, Stever Robbins included, who are the most to blame for not explaining to the public what is happening, but instead, they take their own piece of the covert persuasion action on an unsuspecting general public.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2010 05:04AM by The Anticult.

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James Arthur Ray, Deadly Persuasion, Kevin Hogan and Dave Lakhani
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 12, 2010 05:27AM

Now good buddies Kevin Hogan and Dave Lakhani are trying to make a buck off this James Ray tragedy.

@davelakhani Deadly Persuasion - Inside the Lodge, learning the tactics, protecting yourself. Teleseminar Wed nt

Inside the Lodge? That means the James Ray death lodge.
They push you to a webpage marketing the teleseminar and collecting your email address for marketing other seminars.
Deadly Persuasion?
Inside The Mind Of The Coercive Leader
Kevin Hogan, Dave Lakhani and John Curtis, Ph.D. will discuss how coercive leaders like Jim Jones and others create compelling stories, promises, mythologies and then leverage pseudo-science to create massive followings that often have dangerous outcomes.

If they really wanted to help the public, why lure them into a teleseminar, which of course is just going to be an upsell to their other covert persuasion programs and seminars, like the ones in Vegas?
They are using FEAR marketing.
Learning the tactics?
Kevin Hogan is literally using and marketing the same advanced covert persuasion tactics himself for a living.
Kevin Hogan is targeting his covert persuasion customers who also WANT to be able to have maximum PERSUASION POWER for their own sales systems...learning the tactics...

What is up with John Curtis? He has posted messages about the James Ray tragedy. Does he even realize he is hooked up with people who sell the exact same techniques for a living, and run the same patterns?

Kevin Hogan, Dake Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation []

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2010 05:48AM by The Anticult.

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