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Re: James Arthur Ray - Persuading people to death using NLP tech
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 13, 2010 03:24PM

JamesARay is even trying to use sexual innuendo on twitter, [] which was picked up by someone.
But the sad reality is that James Ray has attracted many women to follow him, using many of the same techniques. Of course, the main critics of James Ray are also sharp women who saw through his vile scam instantly, and also those who figured it out later.

Twitter jamesray OR jamesaray

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2010 03:35PM by The Anticult.

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James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influence
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 13, 2010 07:48PM

Of course, in a non-cultic environment, difference of opinion is healthy!

But there have been many terrible mistakes made about James Ray. The worst are in the media, and in those who wanted to ban sweat lodges, and the like.
James Ray has nothing to do with sweat lodges, it was just an instrument for him. He could have used an igloo, or desert island, or hotel ballroom.

What was James Ray REALLY doing?
Teaching The Secret? No. Teaching enlightenment? No.

What James Ray, Byron Katie, Tony Robbins, and hundreds of others are doing is something else. It can be called many things, like unconscious influence, or covert persuasion, invisible influence.
But what is that?

That could be called ENGINEERING "voluntary" CONSENT.
Some have made the error of calling it coercive influence, but in these cases its probably not really coercive, but PERMISSIVE.
They have learned the precise techniques to set up a complete influence system, using books, seminars, video and audio to deliberately shape peoples ability to make DECISIONS, usually about handing over money.

In all of their seminar waivers, they all FORCE people who are attending to sign a paper saying their consent is "Voluntary". Why do they all do that?
Because they get sued by people coming after them later, saying they were put into an altered state of mind and then ripped-off for 20K-50K.

What these seminars have learned, is how to influence and engineer consent, that APPEARS voluntary to the person. Most of those techniques have come from the NLP-Sales-hypnosis-perusasion nexus, as well as social influence. Even peer pressure can work like that too.
They have combined all the tech into one package.

Especially the NLP conversational hypnosis tech that uses metaphors and language patterns, double binds to MANUFACTURE seemingly voluntary consent with PERMISSIVE techniques.

So they are able to invisibly influence and engineer their targets seeming experience of "voluntary decision making", but in fact they are managing that decision process using dozens of specific techniques.
Its not airy-fairy stuff, its written up in advanced sales manuals which appear at LGAT's on advanced sales that sell for more than 10K.

Engineering consent is an old term used in advertising by Bernays. [] but the techniques have come far since that time.
There is a mildly related book Manufacturing Consent which deals with some of the political side of that idea. []

But the personal engineering of the ILLUSION of Voluntary consent in these advanced LGAT seminars is something that is going to have to be studied in great detail.
That is also why a criminal conviction is not a slam-dunk, as "voluntary free will" is something that the courts are all about.

These LGAT Gurus are not stupid, its the media that is stupid. Byron Katie and hubby Stephen Mitchell know all about how this works, read their disclaimer which uses the word "voluntary" constantly. Voluntary consent? [] []
How is anyone going to prove in court that these permissive techniques have manufactured the illusion of seemingly voluntary consent in the subject?

James Ray also knows its about engineering seemingly voluntary consent in the followers. The key is they don't even need to use the coercive techniques as much, and can use the permissive techniques.

So that is the real issue, of WHY and HOW those people ended up risking their lives against all reason and common sense. They were shaped and persuaded to do so using this Tech over a period of time.
Its very powerful material.

Did Josh-Megan come to James Ray that screwed up? Not likely. Using this tech, an expert is literally able to also reshape people's Values. That is not abstract, there are SPECIFIC techniques to modify people's Values, beliefs, perception of reality, behaviors, emotions, and thinking patterns.
They are also able to do it permissively, where the target believes they have Voluntarily made those decisions, which have been largely engineered into them using a complex process.

Again, this is not abstract, in the advanced NLP persuasion-hypnosis-sales that James Ray studied in Hawaii from Matthew James and Tad James, he learned that entire system, and combined it with other systems.
Its a similar process Byron Katie uses to get people to "voluntarily" hand over their wedding rings [] and valuables, and to "voluntarily" sign a document saying that once they give her their stuff, they cannot have it back. Byron Katie knows it wears off after a few months.

So the 3 day contract cooling off period is a joke, 3 days is nothing for the persuasion experts.

So that is the game, engineering what appears to be voluntary consent into people, making them sign documents, to get them to act against their own interests financially, and even believe they thought it up themselves, then BLAME THEMSELVES later.
Its the manipulation and subtle engineering of what seems to be "Free Will", and their own Voluntary consent. Has that ever been tested in a court? As long as they don't physically coerce you, the Gurus knows damn well they can do anything they want. That is why they all chant...
Its All Voluntary, its all voluntary consent.

These LGAT gurus are not stupid, they have speny YEARS working over-time on their skills in this area. They are obsessed with it, they crave that POWER, they have worked on it all day everyday for years. They have spent often hundreds of thousands of dollars to research the techniques, by taking the advanced persuasion seminars of the best experts in the world, and copying them.

The time is right for this type of information to be exposed in the mass media by smart investigative journalists, if there are any left.
Maybe a couple of the top NLP advanced persuasion experts will have a crisis of conscience and write it up. Or maybe they will do it to try and make a buck.
(But not like the current Influence books which are full of misinformation, lies, misdirection, and upselling).
They could write a smart mainstream book, and educate the public precisely on how it all works.
Imagine that, making a reasonable living actually helping people and being one of the good guys. Almost unthinkable.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2010 08:03PM by The Anticult.

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influence
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 14, 2010 05:14AM

I think it is less of a difference of opinion than approaching the same thing from different perspectives. I agree with your conclusions, I just approach those same conclusions through the frame of reference that is most familiar to me, as I do not have the NLP frames of reference.
I am learning some though ;-)

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influ
Posted by: JimmyProfit ()
Date: March 14, 2010 01:14PM

James Arthur Ray's latest tweet:

"Fear is the devil and doubt is a disease"

What do you make of this?

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influ
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 14, 2010 04:46PM

I think he is essentially addressing himself, trying to bolster himself.
He is a consumate narcissist, he is at the centre of his own cosmology, he assumes (wrongly) that he is at the centre of everyone elses cosmology.
He is talking down his own fear, he must be aware that it is there for there is no indication yet that he will get off this rap.

Doubt is the big bugbear of all True Believers, or those who aspire to True Belief or those who wish to co-opt others into True Belief. Doubt is that critical little voice in everyones head that questions bald statements such as 'Fear is the devil'
In my head the dialogue is something like 'Oh yeah, who says so? Who made you the arbiter of all things?' Then I begin to look into the other possibilities available in that bald statement 'Fear is the devil'

Doubt gets a really bad press with anyone looking to control others belief systems, its called 'negative thinking' but it is the beginning of critical thinking.
All babies learn the word 'no' before they learn to say 'yes' and take huge delight in trying that word out for themselves. In child development it is considered the beginning sign of the developing individual self--for the parents of course it is a trying time, the terrible twos, but a developmental essential.
I'm a great fan of doubt, it opens up other worlds of possibility.

Voltaire, a brilliant satirist said: 'Doubt is not a pleasant state of mind but certainty is a ridiculous one.'
If we are honest, it becomes a truism that there is very little that is certain in this world, much as we all would like there to be certitude sometimes.

Of course in addressing himself, Death Ray is also addressing those followers who have bought into/been manipulated into his story of 'Harmonic Wealth--Hot-line To The Universe' as being of greater value than that little voice of doubt/reality in their heads.
I'm guessing that, in order to keep his world from crashing, it is vital that he continue to delude himself that he has a chance between now and the verdict of converting the rest of us heathen (unbelievers in his own cosmology) to his own view of things.

For he does not allow himself to consider that his own view of things might not jibe with mundane reality. Its escapism, taken to its absolute limit and beyond. JAR keeps promoting this 'taking of all things to their absolute limit and beyond' in his sales emails to me.
Being something of a recovering extremist myself, I can see the lie in that.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2010 04:57PM by Stoic.

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James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influence
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 14, 2010 06:14PM

James Ray is trying to manipulate his remaining followers beliefs.
In New Thought (The Secret) [] [] for example, they believe if you "doubt" you are healthy then you will get sick. So you have cancer as you don't believe you are healthy.
So if you allow ANY doubt in your mind, bad things will happen to you, so you have to try and make yourself believe you have TOTAL belief and 100% certainty.
And if you do have TOTAL PURE belief without any doubt, then you can literally do anything, like levitate, multiply loaves and fishes, walk on water, walk out of jail, and that fun stuff.
(but of course you can't)

So James Ray is just trying to continue to manipulate his followers who might be having DOUBT about James Ray.
Doubt is creeping into their minds, and he is telling them that DOUBT will hurt them. So its another ploy to try to get them to banish all doubt from their mind that James Ray is a sociopath and manipulative user and abuser.
(after all, James Ray calls his "God" Universal Source Energy = USE)

The Twitter critics are right on the money, healthy fear is essential, it keeps us safe in life and from sociopathic Guru conmen and conwomen.
And healthy doubt is essential and extremely healthy. Its called having a good Bullshit Detector. []

James Ray FEARS DOUBT, as if people exercised critical thinking then he would not be able to manipulate them. James Ray is a the worst kind of SALESMAN and he FEARS DOUBT as that kills the SALE. That is what its all about. James Ray like Werner Erhard = SALESMAN.

Its all part of the system of BREAKING DOWN THE MIND of the targets of covert influence. You can't influence them, until you break down their critical thinking ability by DEMONIZING the mind that can analyze and engage in critical thinking. Every single New Age LGAT Guru and cult leader does that.
Every single one of them.

In this case, James Ray is wrong both ways.
Healthy fear is essential for survival, and trying to banish doubt is an impossible double-bind.

His previous quote was from Jesus, notice how he mixes his own stupid JAR-JAR quotes in with Jesus, and other God-figures. That is for followers who do actually look on JAR the conman as a godman. Its hard to believe there would still be some, but there probably are some, but they would not post on twitter much anymore, as they get challenged.
But even when Gurus get convicted and go to jail for terrible crimes, there are always some deluded followers who keep following them, as they must be too far down the rabbit hole.
Maybe their initial DOUBTS they are having about James Ray will start to sprout and grow until they see what is really going on.

James Arthur Ray's latest tweet:

"Fear is the devil and doubt is a disease"

What do you make of this?

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Re: James Arthur Ray - 2 die at Arizona retreat's sweat lodge
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 14, 2010 06:15PM

Had a look on twitter and there is a very sharp response to that last tweet, 'Fear is the devil....':

'RT @NancyOgilvie: @JamesARay U alwys taught fear=False Evidence Appearing Real. If Id listened to myself at ur events I'd have said "F** ...
about 2 hours ago via web'

Poor old Death Ray is hoping to cause enough confusion in the heads of all of us that Real Evidence Appears False.

Honest Abe said 'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.'

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2010 06:17PM by Stoic.

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent with NLP+ Influence
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 14, 2010 07:23PM

CosmicConnie has a post on her views on regulation. []

Ya know what the real pros like Byron Katie and others who do LGAT seminars to make millions have to say?
When confronted by authorities, they just say they are "having a conversation" and the seminars are "entertainment".
Add a big fat helping of "religious freedom" to the mix, and they say they are engaging in "conversation, religion and entertainment".
(free speech, religious free speech and entertainment).

Also, the biggest LGAT Gurus make certain they have NO LICENSING whatsoever in anything. Because with no licensing in nothing, that means they are literally in the New Age wild west (like California is) and the only thing regulating them are things like the FTC, and the police. (and of course civil litigation which they fight off with their army of suits who crush the small guy, and do pay-offs with gag-orders, which is the cost of doing business and a tax-deduction).

When in fact, their real business is the engineering of the illusion of "voluntary consent" with advanced covert permissive persuasion and manipulation.
Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent [] You can see the evidence of that in their waivers, which use terms like "voluntary" constantly, as they constantly get into trouble for conning people out of tens of thousands of dollars using high-pressure sales tactics.
Most states have a 3 day contract cooling off period, but the LGAT pros laugh at that, as they know how to make the HYPE last more than 3 days, that is childsplay for them.

So that is the amazing position the most advanced LGAT seminar leaders have put themselves into. The ability to use language and dozens of powerful social influence, and covert influence techniques to engineer what appears to be "voluntary" consent into their targets, and get them to sign contracts for many 10's of thousands of dollars, that they can't get out of after 3 days.
As a special LGAT bonus, they are able to frame that as "keeping your committment" and to also engineer people blaming themselves when the seminar doesn't work as advertised.

But how is anyone going to deal with the subject of engineering seemingly "voluntary consent" in a court? That is what courts are all about.
Of course if people are killed or seriously physically injured, that is different, no matter if there is a waiver, due to negligence.
But what about the problem of all the people getting and deceived and bankrupted with the powerful and high-pressure techniques being used?

How are they going to regulate "religious speech", "conversation", and entertainment?

That is why LGAT Gurus laugh themselves to sleep everynight, then get up and laugh all the way to the bank.

But this is always why LGAT Gurus are so terrified of public education which exposes their techniques and methods in precise detail, and try to silence those who speak up.
And perhaps the answer to people who have been injured and scammed are organized class-action suits, like the car industry?

Perhaps Consumer Reports, or organizations like that could start doing ratings? (of course the most powerful LGAT Guru organizations and cults would go after them, just like they go after big media companies to create libel-chill, to get them to stop writing articles about them).
So it will probably come back to citizens fighting back against these groups, like what has happened with Scientology.

But the techniques of persuasion have advanced by light-years over the last 20-30 years, and have become highly organized. What might help would be a 10 hour TV series which explains how it all works, done in a way that anyone could understand.
Once people even start SUSPECTING the Guru is trying to manipulate and scam them, it can really mess up their indoctrination system.
That is why they tell you that Doubt is the Devil.

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 14, 2010 07:54PM

Its fascinating to look at some of the legal writings and definitions of CONSENT and VOLUNTARY.

The LGAT Gurus have had their legal experts research and write up their waivers to try to cover their ass on that front. They FORCE you to sign a waiver to attend the seminar, if you do not sign they won't let you in, and will keep the money as the contract was done previously.
So they are even using force to aquire your "voluntary" admission of consent in the waiver, which 99.9% of the people do not even read.

Meanwhile, the techniques exist to massage and engineer seemingly "voluntary consent" and to do it permissively and not even coercively, although psychological coercion is usually embedded within the seminar dynamics.
There are dozens and hundreds of techniques, like using double-binds, false-choices, trick-contracts, and of course "voluntary" sleep deprivation, voluntary starvation (fasting), as well as the dozens of other techniques in use to break down and weaken the targets Free Will, and make their Will and conscious decision-making process more pliable to influence. Softening up their heads, as they say.

The LGAT Gurus understand all of this perfectly.
They know to cover their ass they have to persuade people to sign waivers saying they voluntarily consent to everything, even though they are so psychologically hyped-up, they do not read the waiver, and if they don't sign the waiver on the spot at the seminar entrance, they lose all their money from a previous contract, and all the other issues.

Meanwhile, the LGAT Gurus know precisely how to massage and engineer your consent so it appears to be "voluntary" in their totally controlled LGAT seminar environments which last more than 18 hours a day (even after hours in your room) for up to 2 weeks for some seminars, and beyond.
They bombard the targets from all sides, and the tech works on many of the people who attend.

That is why the LGAT seminar Gurus dedicate their lives to learning and applying those advanced persuasion techniques, and will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars getting access to the best techniques and directly copying them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2010 08:00PM by The Anticult.

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Re: James Ray -Engineering seemingly Voluntary Consent
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 15, 2010 05:20AM

Rumour Rat has JAR down the rabbit hole:

"It's a good practice to imagine doing 6 impossible things every day before breakfast" --Alice in Wonderland

"Imagination is more important than memory" --Albert Einstein

Mad Hatter: "Am I totally bonkers?" Alice: "Yes... All the good people are."

The Einstein quote is wrong, 'memory' should read 'knowledge'--definitely a suggestion to forget what we know. And the first Alice quote is just showing desperation, that we should imagine doing the impossible, overlooking the evidence?

No chance of that James, its all in the documented evidence.

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