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Dassi
Okay. Enough.
There are over a hundred pages
from all different angles
about FL and his little cult.
(I'm not suggesting that the discussion should end).

But now what?
What is theSOLUTION?
Can we discuss and FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS for:
The children still in the cult?
Members who want to reform things?
People who want out but are afraid?
How would you advise these people?
Support them?
What will make a positive difference in their lives?

:D We are forming the "[b:825bc1ddaf]Social League of Blooped Sanyassis[/b:825bc1ddaf]" (SLOBS) to help people get over their trauma of being in the cult ... :D

Send me a private message and we can exchange garlic recipes and some ideas for new kama-sutra positions :D

PS - This is a joke by the way [/color:825bc1ddaf]:D
PS -- Still thinking of a serious answer to these questions, though...
:D :D

The soul within the tiger and monkey is also equal. But we do not give the tiger a banana or treat him like a monkey. I do not know the exact situation and why ACBS said that, so I will not second guess. No one got a salary in the early movement.

As far as molesters they should be punished to the extreme imho. But if a person wants to blame Vaishnavism on those things that happened they must be a little biased. Like blaming Jesus for the inquisitions. If a person wants a more rounded view of Vaishnavism it must be taken in its entire context. The last 50 years is just a blink of the eye. The Vaishnava religion had no such problems until it came to the west. Research the history of Vaishnavism and then you can know what I am saying is true.

And I DO treat the dishwasher different than the president and would not let the dishwasher be president. Well actually in America today that may be an improvement. I correct myself.

Dassi,

There are many within Vaishnavism, even some acharyas who believe ACBS made many mistakes. Some go as far as to say westerners are not qualified to become full Vaishnavas and he should not have tried to give us everything. Myself I believe everything happens for a reason and that not even a blade of grass moves without the sanction of God. So for myself I do not agree with you or other Vaishnavas on many of the things you fault ACBS with. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion. And I am happy Rick Ross is liberal enough to allow mine. But I would ask we do not side track this thread by making it a thread to find all the faults or bad things that happened in ISKCON. The intention of the letters is to show that FL did not follow his gurus instructions which would then mean he does not have the credentials as qualified guru in the line. There are other threads for finding the mistakes and faults within ISKCON Lets keep on subject. FL has a cult lets expose it and agree to disagree on certain points.

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hoax108
Quotesman -

However, as so beautifully evidenced by the prayers of Queen Kunti - I think Vaishanavas pursue a much more personal relationship with the Lord himself.

Another observation of FL - he doesn't seem to talk much about HIS relationship with the Lord. As Queen Kunti prayed - "you reveal yourself to the surrendered souls". Years ago, a close member of his inner circle asked him to reveal to the devotees his intimate relationship with Krishna - but he never has.

Very good observation imho.

I realize that the Fearful Leader taught against divorce and then divorced.

And perhaps he promoted the divorce of Richard Windham-Bellord and Windham-Bellord's then wife, the ever-lovely Wailana.

At best, Chris Butler is a hypocrite.

Didn't His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada leave his wife and family to bring Krishna Consciousness to the U.S.?

Is ACB considered to be a sannyasa?

Were ACB's children grown when he left his wife?

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atheist
I realize that the Fearful Leader taught against divorce and then divorced.

And perhaps he promoted the divorce of Richard Windham-Bellord and Windham-Bellord's then wife, the ever-lovely Wailana.

At best, Chris Butler is a hypocrite.

Didn't His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada leave his wife and family to bring Krishna Consciousness to the U.S.?

Is ACB considered to be a sannyasa?

Were ACB's children grown when he left his wife?

His personal family including his wife, were adverse to Krishna while he was in household life. His wifes name was Radha but I do not think ACBS ever called her that. She sold his holy books to by tea and that was the last straw for ACBS. Although in Hindu society the man dominates ACBS could not get his wife to even stop drinking tea. SHe refused. Which probably explains why ACBS included tea and coffee as breaking the regulative principles. In fact many, if not most, Vaishnavas worldwide drink tea or coffee. After that he took sannyasa. He DID leave some money for his wife. We were told otherwise by FL. But the fact is he DID arrange for his wife to be taken care of before he left the world. His wifes family was also very rich so there is no question he left his wife in a poverty stricken condition as many falsely claim. In Hinduism if the husband leaves, the wife goes back to the father and the father cares for her. The sons are also responsible to take care of the mother. So the sons were well off due to the money on their mothers side of the family. One of his sons later tried to sue ISKCON for a big part of the money when ACBS left the world. Another son became a devotee after realizing he did not recognize his father (a sadhu is never or very rarely recognized in his own village or family). One of his sons is now a practicing devotee within ISKCON.

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atheist
I realize that the Fearful Leader taught against divorce and then divorced.

And perhaps he promoted the divorce of Richard Windham-Bellord and Windham-Bellord's then wife, the ever-lovely Wailana.

At best, Chris Butler is a hypocrite.

I do not think that FL had the queen bee divorce in order to marry her. And he was himself never married prior to the queen bee. The QB (thats Queen Bee not Quarter Back) had already divorced for other reasons. At least that is the party line I was told.

But if you read the previous letter by ACBS it can be understood he (FL) should have instructed the queen bee to go back to her husband. Since both the queen bee and her husband were fully surrendered souls to the FL where is the question of FL allowing them to divorce? That is the hypocrisy. The x-husband of the queen bee later was given a wife by the FL, a very wealthy lady from a rich family. So this is the real hypocisy. He should have acted like a spiritual father and helped his disciples work out their marriage. Instead he married the spiritual daughter and then gave another spiritual daughter to the now wifeless son. How could anyone who claims to be a vaishnava miss this stuff??? I will post the letter again in case others did not get it.




Los Angeles
15 September, 1972
72-09-15
Buffalo
My dear Sudevi Dasi,
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated September 8, 1972, and have noted the contents therein. Marriage between husband and wife means that the husband must forever be responsible for the wife's well-being and protection in all cases. That does not mean that now there is agreement between us, therefore I am responsible, but as soon as there is some disagreement then I immediately flee the scene and become so-called renounced. Whether your husband likes to take responsibility as your spiritual guide or not, that does not matter. He must do it. It is his duty because he has taken you as his wife. Therefore he must take full responsibility for you the rest of his life. And you also must agree to serve him under all circumstances and assist him in every way so that he may make advancement in Krsna Consciousness. By his making advancement in Krsna Consciousness, automatically the wife will make advancement in the husband's footsteps. But if you do not assist him and be very obedient to his welfare, then he may become disgusted and go away. So there must be mutual responsibility by both parties, and now that you are married couple there is no question of your separation, but you must both strive very hard to serve Krsna together in harmony. What are these nonsense emotions that cause you to go this way and that way, the real thing is your duty. Now you are married couple, you know what your duty is, so best thing is to perform your duty and always think of Krsna. Never mind some temporary inconveniences, we must remain steady in our duty to Krsna.

Regarding Siddhasvarupananda, these things which you have heard are simply rumor and there is no substance. Siddhasvarupa does not want to take disciples, neither he should have disciples while I am alive. That is the process.

***I have never said that Siddhasvarupa is a pure devotee.***

That is simply concoction.

Now I am going to India in few weeks and I shall stop at Hawaii and take Siddhasvarupananda to India for training him up properly


Hoping this meets you in good health,
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

*But every one can become a pure devotee if he has no other desire than to serve Krsna and the Spiritual Master.*

Another thing that can be understood by the letter is that ACBS is saying anyone who desires to serve the guru is a pure devotee, but he says he never said FL is a pure devotee. Therefore it can be logically concluded ACBS is saying the FL was not following him.

We can also conclude that it was and still is possible for the FL to become a pure devotee if he ever starts actually following his guru.

Tea in India:

To ACBS tea represented foreign influence in India. The British East India Company's monopoly of the tea trade and its dominance over India were unprecedented in history. The Company maintained the largest private army in history and went out of its way to get every Indian hooked on tea.
The company set up tea time twice a day for all Indians working for the company. The East India Company controlled practically all commerce in India at the time. The Indians were then given tea to drink. If they did not want tea they still had to hang around while the others took it. In this way the company hooked a whole nation on tea. Now practically every Indian takes tea at least twice a day. So ACBS had a very bad taste for tea.

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But if you read the previous letter by ACBS it can be understood he (FL) should have instructed the queen bee to go back to her husband. Since both the queen bee and her husband were fully surrendered souls to the FL where is the question of FL allowing them to divorce? That is the hypocrisy. The x-husband of the queen bee later was given a wife by the FL, a very wealthy lady from a rich family. So this is the real hypocisy. He should have acted like a spiritual father and helped his disciples work out their marriage. Instead he married the spiritual daughter and then gave another spiritual daughter to the now wifeless son. How could anyone who claims to be a vaishnava miss this stuff??? I will post the letter again in case others did not get it.

I don't think this has been missed by vaishnavas, but we were also instructed not to presume to judge or even understand FL. We were told that we did not have the spiritual vision to understand and therefore should not even think. Yes, it is the ultimate hypocrisy, he even had a video out where he was chastising a couple of devotees for wanting to end their marriages, to be with others. I'm sure we all saw that. He had many fine words and scriptural references in that instance. BAH.

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Now I am going to India in few weeks and I shall stop at Hawaii and take Siddhasvarupananda to India for training him up properly

So, did this actually happen? Is there any further mention or letters as to how FL actually fared during this 'training'? I'm thinking that whatever he learned, it didn't hold.