He did not want to go to India. It was very disturbing to ACBS that he did not want to go. But FL told everyone his guru was pleased he did not want to go with him.

He had little to no training from his guru. And it is not like ACBS saw some great yogi in him. In fact in this letter he is instructing another disciple to correct him if need be.

Mayapur
1 April, 1975
75-04-01
Honolulu
My dear Manasvi dasa,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated March 13rd, 1975 and have noted the contents. I am very glad to hear that everything is going on nicely there. Encourage Siddhasvarupa Maharaja to continue to speak as much as possible and give him all facilities.

Whenever there is some question or if he speaks something incorrect, you may humbly correct him or if need be, I can also give correction by mail.

His booklet is very nicely done. It is sound preaching.
Continue all your programs there nicely, giving special stress to strictly following all of the rules and regulations especially the four regulative principles and chanting 16 rounds daily then everything will be very nice. I will most likely be coming there in the fall for some time after my European and American tour.
I hope this meets you in good health.
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Svami
ACBS/ps


FL is basically still teaching the very abc's of Krishna Consciousness. Not much has changed since this letter was written. He missed out on a lot by leaving the association of his guru and keeping his distance, and by not listening to senior vaishnavas in the line. He is confused on many issues of the siddhanta (philisophical truths) of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

I was told most definitely that FL did travel with ACB in India, for some time. The impression I got was of FL behaving correctly at his Spiritual Master's feet, serving him and learning. Did this never happen?

BTW, I really like the letters being copied here. It does serve to illustrate how far apart we have come from reality. Thankyou

Akhenatan said:

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Sometimes I wonder if just for one goddamn cottonpicking moment Chris Butler will ever stop in the middle of stuffing vegetarian food down his mouth and think about how many lives he has destroyed.

Even if for just one spelling mistake, will he stop for one minute his political activities, his money making activities and all other things.

What goes around: listen to that song by Justin Timberlake and think of us.

I know that from the first moment I heard his name, my life stopped. Everything changed from then. He has no idea what he has done.

I took the time to look at his devotees, the people that profess to be the followers of God, and I saw: lies, adultery, double standards and the worst that humanity has to offer. I should have known better : as Justin says what goes around, comes around, I can tell you for a fact that the Vaishanavas of the Chris Butler cult, do everything THAT they point fingers at the materialists for doing, except they do it better.

I took the liberty of moving this post from the other thread.

you make a good point, Akhenaten, that the cult members do everything that they point fingers at the materialists for doing, except they do it better...

For example, the materialists are condemned for making money for their own enjoyment, but I think FL living in his mansion beachfront homes and taking expensive skiing holidays 8) at other people's expense, takes the cake for that!

:wink:

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terrenaut
I was told most definitely that FL did travel with ACB in India, for some time. The impression I got was of FL behaving correctly at his Spiritual Master's feet, serving him and learning. Did this never happen?

BTW, I really like the letters being copied here. It does serve to illustrate how far apart we have come from reality. Thankyou

He did go once. But he distanced himself from everyone. While all the devotees were in Mayapura living close to ACBS in the ashram ACBS had built for his disciples FL stayed a distance in some funky banana patch guarded by Sudama so no one would bother the great yogi. This was very displeasing to ASBS who wanted his followers to cooperate with one another. Then FL just up and left without saying anything to his guru. Again ACBS was very unhappy he just left without telling him. Then later ACBS wanted FL to come to India again and be close to him so he could train him up properly but FL was so puffed up thinking himself already advanced he did not want to go. So he did not go and then ACBS said, ‘What kind of a disciple does not want to go to India with their guru.” This made ACBS very unhappy. But FL lied and said ACBS was happy with his decision not to accompany him to India. The politically correct story inside the cult is that ACBS could see FL did not need to go because he was already following so perfectly. This is pure Horse doo doo and a contrived lie. He either lied about it or he really believes that was the case and ACBS was happy. People who were there know differently. It was no big secret among the close follower of ACBS that he was not happy with FL aloofness and him going on his own. He pretty much jumped the gun considering himself already a guru.

Here is a pretty good letter from one like you who began to see the light and decided to go to another guru. Of course FL demonized both his follower and the guru that helped him. The proper thing for Fl to do would have been to give his blessings. Instead he acted like a jilted highschool girl condemning everyone involved, even a guru far more advanced and senior to him.



Dear Gurudev,

Please accept my worthless obeisances.

Kindly allow me to express what is in my heart.

It was my fortune to have come into contact with you and our Chaitanya Mission. Although I haven't even met you personally, I have had your association through the impersonal medium of your taped lectures, as well as the personal association of your representatives in the form of your disciples. From these I have learned so many things and I appreciate and thank you very much for that, for all the help and guidance that I received.

I know it wasn't enough for me to just continue living that way, i.e. taking and taking, so I know it was just proper for me to serve you and help you in your mission.

I approached you to become your disciple because I knew I should serve the one who can help me attain Krishna prema. With all my imperfections, I have served your mission faithfully and would want to continue to serve your mission. However, I must express to you that there are very serious things which I felt lacking within the mission during the eleven years that I served within it. There were also a number of policies and behaviors which I found to be questionable regarding our dealings with other vaisnavas and vaisnava societies. I will attempt in this letter to state clearly what I mean in this regard.

In my eleven years in your mission, I have always felt that the association which was available to me in your disciples was lacking in terms of the spiritual guidance and protection which they could offer to me. This brought about a great longing in me to associate with actual senior vaishnavas who can really guide me, who can really help me to advance further and who are quite expert as far as explaining the shastras, and also living a strict devotional lifestyle. I am not referring to a few of the senior devotees who are strict in their vaisnava lifestyles and whose examples have inspired me, but I am referring to the majority of the disciples. I don't want to be blaming or criticizing other people, but for a neophyte devotee like me, I know it's never enough to just be taught about philosophy. I needed the actual association of people who are really living such philosophy.

I found that I was longing for this in our Chaitanya Mission, and I was hoping maybe if I get your actual association I may see such. So many times I hankered for this. The longer I was in your mission, the more I longed for this association.

To some extent I found this longing satisfied by hearing your lectures, and particularly by reading books by vaisnava acaryas like Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Shridhara Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja and Sripad Paramadvaiti Maharaja. These books were obtained by me throught the internet. In the case of Srila Narayana Maharaja, his lectures from his world tours were posted as well as some of his books. By being exposed to these various teachings, it opened up a whole new horizon of aspects and subjects within our philosophy which I feel is necessary for me to learn. And this in turn increased my desire further to have the actual association of such exalted vaisnava sadhus. It also stimulated my desire to go deeper in the vaisnava siddhanta, and to be more serious in my spiritual life.

When I found out that Shrila Narayan Maharaj was coming, I was very happy because from my association with his teachings I could understand that he is truly a very exalted vaishnava saint, a very intimate associate of your gurudev and I found his lectures very wonderful and enlivening and always filled with very sweet Krishna katha. I was especially happy also mainly because I know it is a very rare opportunity to get such a first class sadhu sanga and now this very fortunate opportunity was being provided.

Although I didn't see any conflict as far as serving you and at the same time learning more from Shrila Narayan Maharaj, there is this element of fear and discouragement in your mission that tries to prevent me from doing what my heart wants and needs.

I find that your forced policy, that in our mission you are the only guru, and there is no need for any other association with any other vaisnava gurus besides yourself, is very restrictive, and it creates fear in me as well as others. It gives such a sectarian mood amongst your disciples and creates indirectly or directly a misconception that if we listen to or read books by other vaishnavas (even very elevated vaishnavas), because they are in a different mission, that we are not being faithful to our guru and therefore are being offensive to him. However I know and I feel that this is not the situation. This attitude goes against my actual desire to be a part of the world vaisnava family.

Because of this, I couldn't openly just say to anyone in our mission that I will be away tonight because I am going to offer respects and hear from Shrila Narayan Maharaj. I would be condemned. Acharya das warned me over one year ago prior to Srila Narayana Maharaja's first visit in February 1999, that we would be hesitant to welcome people who go to associate with Shrila Narayan Maharaj.

In our Chaitanya Mission centers, there are Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad gita classes given by your disciples. I listen to them, although I know their realization is not very perfect nor their life very pure. Yet I appreciate them and to some extent I get some spiritual encouragement. But now I am confused why it's not okay to hear from someone who is a widely recognized and revered vaisnava in our gaudiya saraswata line, whose entire life has exemplified the execution of pure unalloyed bhakti of the highest order, who is accepted by thousands of vaisnavas from around the world as being an uttama mahabhagavat, just because he is from another mission. I found it very absurd. I have read many of Shrila Narayan Maharaj's wonderful books and I immediately feel that he's such a great devotee, and I found him very enlivening and expert in giving people the greed to hear more about Krishna and develop suddha bhakti. He gives me more inspiration to further advance in my spiritual life. Yet I never felt that I am rejecting you or I have to reject you.

If only we didn't have such sectarian policy, I would have openly and happily informed everyone that I am going to hear and learn from Shrila Narayan Maharaj while he's here, and still continue to serve you more effectively. Or that I could openly say to my godbrothers/godsisters that I will be away for a few days to hear from Shrila Narayan Maharaj, be inspired by his wonderful association and maybe ask him to grant me initiation in the gayatri mantra, and then come back to continue my service to you. But I know I cannot do this. I will definitely be condemned.

The fact is that I feel that such possible condemnation (which did happen) is wrong because I know I am not rejecting you, and all I want to do is to at least take advantage of the opportunity to get the first class sadhu sanga that I have always been praying and sometimes crying for, and which I found to be very rare and lacking in our Chaitanya Mission centers.

I have said this because I have seen and experienced such wonderful sanga in the association of Shrila Narayan Maharaj and his disciples, and it is exactly what I was looking for in Chaitanya Mission.

So this act of mine, namely having to secretly go to the association of Shrila Narayan Maharaja, would not have happened had there not been all these paranoia/fear/sectarian attitudes and opinions.

Unfortunately, I wasn't quick enough to send you a letter of explanation. Under these circumstances news has reached you, and it appears that you were presented with so many false suppositions that Shrila Narayana Maharaja's group is canvassing and re-initiating people from Chaitanya Mission.

They never came to me. I came to them, and I am not regretting whatsoever having done so, because I got the rare chance to have actual sadhu sanga with such a wonderful exalted vaisnava who certainly, by all of his qualities and characteristics that I and many others have observed, fits the description in the sastras of an uttama mahabhagavat vaishnava. And in addition I have also been very blessed to have the highly inspirational association of his very advanced and wonderful disciples.

Not knowing who they were dealing with, more than thirty of my godbrothers/godsisters (in 4 vehicle vans), some enraged with anger, went to the Gaudiya Vaishnava center where I was staying to give me your letter and the official Chaitanya Mission open letter for Shrila Narayana Maharaja, which was filled with many false suppositions, and which was highly offensive to such an exalted vaisnava. In the name of attempting to point out that Srila Narayana Maharaja and his followers were being offenders, they themselves were entering into the dangerous area of vaisnava ninda. They also dealt with the devotees very impolitely.

If I were to disappear from our Chaitanya Mission Center, and then maybe at a later time when I return, tell them that I went away to see a relative, or that I went for a vacation, I know there wouldn't be much disturbance. But why does there have to be such a great disturbance, condemnation, and vaishnava aparadha taking place just because I went to the association of some very wonderful devotees?

A few days after I left, I asked a devotee to send an e-mail on my behalf, because it was brought to my attention that my friends were worried about my disappearance, and I wanted to alleviate any worry of theirs by informing them of my well-being. It was by this email that they were informed of who I was associating with. And without even inquiring from me about my situation, those who were previously my friends and even my own spiritual master have condemned me because they learned that I went to associate with very high class vaishnavas, and because they thought I have rejected them and am dropping my service to them.

If a disciple such as myself is not able to have the personal association, vapu, of his own guru, nor was ever able to have it the whole time he has been his disciple, not even seeing him personally once in eleven years time, I cannot appreciate how it is then offensive to have some sanga with some other very exalted vaishnavas who have come within my physical presence.

In studying the life of Srila Ragunatha dasa Goswami, I have learned that his own diksa guru, Yadunandana Acharya, who was himself a most exalted Mahabhagawata vaisnava, was quite pleased that his disciple went to take the association of a very elevated vaishnava guru as Swarup Damodara Goswami, and even accepted him as his life and soul. He became known as Swarupera Raghu, the Raghu of Swarupa. This did not at all displease his diksa guru, but to the contrary was most pleasing to him. And so intense was the relationship between Raghunatha Dasa and his siksa guru Swarupa Damodara, that upon his dissapearance, as well as the disappearance of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and Gadadhara Pandita, he wanted to end his life, and journeyed to Vrindavana with a plan to commit suicide by jumping from the top of Govardhana Hill. Then he met Srila Rupa Goswami and Srila Sanatan Goswami and in them, he saw Mahaprabhu living fully, and he surrenderd to their lotus feet and became their most intimate follower. These examples show me how even such an exalted vaisnava as Srila Raghunatha dasa Goswami always wishes to be in the association of elevated vaisnavas and to take siksa from them.

There are also numerous other examples in our Guru parampara which I have learned about, such as Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, who was initiated by Srila Lokanatha Goswami taking full shelter of and instruction from Srila Jiva Goswami who became his siksa guru as well as the siksa guru of Srila Srinivasa Acarya and Srila Shyamananda prabhu. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura had a diksa guru in the person of the well-known vaisnava, Vipin Bihari Goswami, yet he fully accepted Srila Jagannatha dasa Babaji Maharaja as his siksa guru in the Bhagavata parampara. There are so many examples that I have learned of in my association with the teachings of our greater Gaudiya Vaisnava family. I do not see how going to associate with obviously exalted vaisnavas who are in our same line, the Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati line, who have proven by their entire lives of pure devotion their exalted status in spiritual realization, and who have spent their lives preaching and practicing the tenets of Lord Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu and helping numerous conditioned souls, that it should be taboo, forbidden and wrong.

When I was asked by Chaitanya dasi why I need to have another guru, I humbly told her that I never rejected you. It was never a question of guru competition. But I told her that I aspire for the same mood as Shrila Narayan Maharaja, so I wanted to associate with him. I appreciate very much how he is teaching devotees to go deeper in their understanding of the teachings of the six Goswamis especially Srila Rupa Gosvami and our rupanuga acharyas. He gives very sweet and powerful Hari Katha.

So the answer to the question of why I am so attracted to these things is that these are exactly the things that I have hankered for and which I found lacking in our Chaitanya Mission.

So although I know that you have taught us to see that the community is like a hospital and therefore certainly we should expect to see many types of diseases, and understanding this to be the situation we should go on with our service not being disturbed by the atmosphere created by these contaminations, but this still cannot be sufficient reason to prevent my right to choose whom I would like to associate with. I have observed that within our mission the preaching of the deeper understanding of our Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya is no longer emphasized, and instead much concern for health consciousness, so-called business for Krishna and sectarian preaching are predominant. So many principles are compromised for the sake of attracting followers. This has caused some dissatisfaction in me.

I know I have the right to humbly express this, that for the entire time I've been in the mission, I have not found anyone in the mission who can thoroughly and deeply teach me the principles taught by Shrila Rupa Goswami as I feel the need to learn. I have not been able to find anyone who can help me to have a deeper understanding of the many Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhantas as I have experienced in my audiences with Shrila Narayan Maharaja and his disciples. And very few in our Chaitanya Mission (although some having been in the mission for decades) can explain deeply the actual understanding of the Srimad Bhagavatam and are themselves living examples.

I have learned that the statement of Srila Swarupa Damodara Goswami in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta regarding the necessity of hearing directly from a person Bhagawatam if one wants to understand the Srimad Bhagawatam, is the standard accepted by all of our Vaisnava acaryas. He sais, "yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthane", CC Antya 5.131. "If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam, you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him." This statement gives the instruction that 1) one cannot simply read the book and gain the correct understanding, and that 2) one must hear it directly from the lips of an actual realized vaisnava. Although I believe and accept that tapes and books can give something, it is by no means a replacement for the personal mouth to ear transmission of the transcendental sound. At some point in every devotee's life there must be direct person to person contact with an elevated vaisnava from whom he can receive the realized truths. And as I have mentioned, my own inner need to have this in my life was becoming always more and more urgent to me. So, I have chosen to avail myself of the most rare apportunity to hear from such a vaisnava personality who came right here to my own part of the world.

So I was feeling this to be continually lacking amidst the association that was available to me. And how long can I continue to be feeling this way? I know that I was longing for those actual devotees who can teach these things not just once a week for less than a couple of hours. And more importantly, not just teaching but actually living it.

The Krishna Katha of Acarya dasa in our Makati Center every Saturday is very nice. It is always fully packed. This is just a symptom of how people are actually anxious to hear such things, namely the deeper gaudiya viashnava philosphy and not just social issues or I am not the body subject matter. But how many in our Chaitanya Mission can speak like Acharya das? Most of my godbrothers/godsisters cannot provide this. I cannot provide this. And I'm not just talking about the ability to give class, but to actually provide the association where people become always Krishna conscious and be fully protected.

For example, the situation/community setup in our mission makes it so that there's not much support and protection for anyone such as myself who prefers to stay Brahmacari. We have senior devotees encouraging brahmacharis to get married or we have brahmacharis approached regularly with proposals by senior devotees to marry their daughters, or by ladies themselves. The general mood is that it is better to be married, and if one tries to remain Brahmacari he is not taken seriously, and there are constant attempts to undermine his determination.

And in your physical absence, I can see that most of our preaching is so indirect and disconnected from true direct engagement in bhakti. And this is the type of preaching which I see that many of your disciples prefer. I am not against these indirect preachings but this has become sometimes the priority issue in our Chaitanya Mission centers. Many have become experts in anti-abortion campaigns, anti-drugs campaign, anti-homosexuality campaign, Y2K seminars and so on but in my personal experience, Acharya das is the only one within our mission who can give wonderful classes on deeper subject matters on Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Very few can even explain the significance of tilak and how to apply it, or discuss thorougly the importance of ekadasi and how to follow these things. Even to follow your instruction of doing continuous kirtan on New Years Day is seen as something impractical and difficult to do by my godbrothers that I am associating with. How many of us among your disciples can enliven people with many wonderful pastimes of Lord Chaitanya or Lord Krishna? How many of my senior godbrothers/sisters know, teach and are living the teachings of Shrila Rupa Gosvami? Or do they even know the significance of Srila Rupa Goswami? How many of them really understand about our Bhagavat parampara, or the intricacies of Guru Tattva? By my association with devotees who are well educated and well informed about these aspects about our Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta, I realized that neither myself nor my godbrothers and godsisters properly understand these important truths. This greatly concerns me, and makes me ask the question of why this is so?

So I saw these things lacking and I wanted to be able to help you alleviate this lack. I wanted to learn more, but I was perplexed from where I could learn these things? I am not learning these things from your tapes. And I don't want to complain to you or open this whole issue, because I feel that I don't want to bother you. It may be that I feel this way because through the years I've taken note of the way in which you relate with your disciples, and from this I am led to the conclusion that you don't want to be bothered. You have expressed in your lectures and letters to your disciples many times that you consider your disciples approaching you on these issues to be symptomatic of lack of surrender/faith, or that they are motivated by the desire for salvation. I didn't want to be a cause to impel you to complain again how your disciples are giving you so much burden (which of course is also a fact). You've told us that this only creates stress for you, and this has been a cause for your body to age prematurely. So therefore, bearing all this in mind, I was always avoiding approaching you on these matters.

When I say that Acharya das seems to be the only one who,by his lectures is able to touch upon these deeper subject matters and thus inspire the devotees in this most needed area, I then question the source of his knowledge. Through my association with Acarya dasa, I have noticed that he has had some significant association with other elevated vaisnavas in his life such as Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Goswami Maharaja and others in recent years, and he has also had association in his life with his own Gurudeva, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. He has given classes on such books as Hari Nama Cintamani by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, and often tells stories of the lives of previous vaisnava acaryas and saints which he has learned from sources other than your books and the books of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. So, it is evident to me that his ability to give such attractive and nice classes is a result of his receiving sadhu sanga in person and in books. I know that he is also very intimately connected with the World Vaisnava Association, which affords him the opportunity to have much interaction and exchange with many vaisnavas from many missions.

And this also raises another quesion in my mind, that if our mission has chosen to play an active role in this WVA, then why are we still maintaining our previous attitude of keeping distance from other vaisnava groups?

I have heard you explain in your lecture the answer to this question, and you have said that we feel that we are inferior and we may always have this tendency to commit offences against other vaisnavas, and therefore we should keep distance from them to avoid offence. But could it be that this policy places your disciples in even more of a dangerous situation wherein there is the possibility of committing offenses against superior vaisnavas by condemning someone who does want to associate with them, and also condemning the exalted vaisnava whom he goes to? Does this cause such devotees who never even met such an elevated vaisnava to misjudge his motives and blaspheme him? I see that this is exactly what has occurred in my situation. I also have learned that this has occurred within the ISKCON society as well, because of their similarly sectarian and restrictive rulings and judgements.

We have always spoken for years about the mistakes and improper behaviour which is perpetrated within ISKCON, and we have been told to keep our distance from them because of their offensive tendencies. But now I see that we are being equally as offensive as they have been in the most dangerous area of offence, which is warned against in the Caitanya Caritamrta, namely, the mad elephant offence.

At this point, I wish to beg forgiveness from you for not being open and direct with informing you about my intentions and actions. From the very beginning that I tried to develop Krishna consciousness, I never considered that I joined any mission. I wanted to become a vaishnava, and to really go deeper and be immersed in the Vaishnava way of life. By the arrangement of Lord Krishna, I have come into connection with you in my life, and I am always thankful for the care that you have given to me. Now, at this point in my life, I also feel that Lord Krishna has arranged for me to meet the personality who will be my gayatri diksha guru in this life. I have come to understand the indispensible necessity of gayatri mantra for advancing on the path of developing vraja prema, which Lord Chaitanya teaches is our ultimate goal of life. I have read about this very important fact from a number of authoritative sources such as Chaitanya Charitamrita, in the conversation between Ramananda Raya and Lord Chaitanya as well as the Archana Dipika, the Gaudiya Kantahara which quotes numerous shastric evidences on this matter. And I have also had the good fortune of reading the commentary written by Shrila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja on the brahma gayatri mantra. It has also been pointed out to me in the first verse of Shrila Ragunatha das Gosvami's Manah Siksha that one should develop deep attachment for the mantra given to him by his guru, namely the gayatri mantra, and then developing attachment for Sri Harinama is mentioned separate from this. It becomes clear to me that vaishnavas in our sampradaya all received both Hari Nama initiation as well as gayatri initiation. Some received both simultaneously, but they are always made aware that second initiation into gayatri mantra is essential for a serious disciple to advance properly. By all of the association I have been blessed with recently, as I've mentioned in this letter, I have come to understand what the standard followed by our previous acharyas actually is in terms of initiation into the gayatri mantra. All of these standards have originally been established by the six goswamis in their books. And I have also seen that all of the modern day acharyas from Bhaktivinode Thakur upto Shrila Prabhupad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj have instituted the same standards, that is the introduction of both Hari Nama initiation and a second initiation which is actually known as diksha, and in which the disciple receives the gayatri mantras of our guru parampara which have been passed down from the time of Mahaprabhu Himself and His personal associates.

I am curious why such standards are not being followed in our mission if we claim to be members of the same sampradaya. It seems to me that such important matters cannot be neglected or discarded for any reason. If I am wrong in this assumption, then I humbly welcome your correction of my misunderstanding.

The association of Srila Narayana Maharaja and his granting to me the gayatri diksa has given me the aspirations to further want to realize and be immersed in the teachings of the six goswamis and the rupanuga acharyas. By learning from him, I feel I can even be of more service to our Chaitanya Mission. Why therefore should there be all of these sectarian considerations? I don't understand why I cannot anymore continue in helping you because Shrila Narayan Maharaj has initiated me in the gayatri mantra.

It's very painful that my gurudev and my godbrothers and godsisters are thinking this way about me and have thus condemned me. One godbrother has even expressed a threat to beat me up. But it's not important to me. What's important is that I get to express that I never ever want to, nor intend to commit any offenses to anyone, especially to you. I beg forgiveness for not being open to you about this but the reasons that I have mentioned have made me decide to take the actions which I did. I know my action has caused you great displeasure and so much anxiety, and also to my friends. So, crying and bowing down, I am begging for your forgiveness.

I will always cherish and appreciate all the help and care you have given me. If my service is still welcome, I am and will always be happy to help your mission. I am placing my humble request at your lotus feet that you kindly be merciful to me, and grant me your blessings to further advance in my spiritual life under the care and guidance of Shrila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja.

Sincerely,

Krsna Karunya dasa Brahamacari (Mahabhava dasa)

from the letter:

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..major snip..

And this also raises another quesion in my mind, that if our mission has chosen to play an active role in this WVA, then why are we still maintaining our previous attitude of keeping distance from other vaisnava groups?

So, do we have anything to do with WVA? I have to say, I have never heard WVA mentioned even once.

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Now, at this point in my life, I also feel that Lord Krishna has arranged for me to meet the personality who will be my gayatri diksha guru in this life. I have come to understand the indispensible necessity of gayatri mantra for advancing on the path of developing vraja prema, which Lord Chaitanya teaches is our ultimate goal of life. I have read about this very important fact from a number of authoritative sources such as Chaitanya Charitamrita, in the conversation between Ramananda Raya and Lord Chaitanya as well as the Archana Dipika, the Gaudiya Kantahara which quotes numerous shastric evidences on this matter. And I have also had the good fortune of reading the commentary written by Shrila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja on the brahma gayatri mantra. It has also been pointed out to me in the first verse of Shrila Ragunatha das Gosvami's Manah Siksha that one should develop deep attachment for the mantra given to him by his guru, namely the gayatri mantra, and then developing attachment for Sri Harinama is mentioned separate from this. It becomes clear to me that vaishnavas in our sampradaya all received both Hari Nama initiation as well as gayatri initiation. Some received both simultaneously, but they are always made aware that second initiation into gayatri mantra is essential for a serious disciple to advance properly. By all of the association I have been blessed with recently, as I've mentioned in this letter, I have come to understand what the standard followed by our previous acharyas actually is in terms of initiation into the gayatri mantra. All of these standards have originally been established by the six goswamis in their books. And I have also seen that all of the modern day acharyas from Bhaktivinode Thakur upto Shrila Prabhupad A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj have instituted the same standards, that is the introduction of both Hari Nama initiation and a second initiation which is actually known as diksha, and in which the disciple receives the gayatri mantras of our guru parampara which have been passed down from the time of Mahaprabhu Himself and His personal associates.

The only people I know who have received initiation into the gayatri mantra were all initiated by ACBS. Has FL initiated anyone in this? Yes, ACBS was known to do both at the same time. I know of no one in the SOI who has been initiated into gayatri mantra by FL. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Can you say when this letter was written? It made my heart stop.

Sorry, I noticed I said "we" in the above, my apologies to those readers who are not in any way a "we". I am still a devotee, talking about a group I still identify with, hence the slip-up. I will endeavour to be more careful.

The letter was written in the year 2,000. . And the letter is ontologically correct on all points.

The FL has given a very few mantra diksa. But without the proper conception of what it is, it will not help anyone.

Acharya das was the secretary of the WVA for awhile. But since Tusta left they have not been very involved with it. I think they may still send representatives. Some devotees stopped supporting the WVA after the Madonna and Xena assaults that were instigated by FL. I am not sure what is happening with the WVA these days. I think FL and Tusta just wanted to use the WVA for their own agenda and they made a show bottle attempt at trying to be non-sectarian by being involved there. But when you read letters like above you can know they ARE NOT non-sectarian in the least. They are as sectarian and cultish as it gets.

It is classic that you, a long time follower, do not even know about the WVA and FL's involvement there. That is just typical of the way he keeps blinders on his followers.

I have all the letters of communication between the two camps.

I have been requested by one of the x-followers of FL here to post the other letters.

What do you think should I post them? Do you think it would help others to understand just how sectarian and cultish FL and his gang are?

I do not want to cross Rick Ross or others on this thread. The letters contain an exchange between two Vaishnava missions. One mission has the proper concepts down concerning the ontological truths of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Vaishnava Sampradaya while the other group is way out in left field somewhere (FL and the gang). But these letters may be of no interest to the main audience here and it may be seen as preaching. So I want to ask the moderator if he thinks it is appropriate I post the letters.

They will absolutlly show that FL is very sectarian and cultish as opposed to what the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are supposed to act like.

Any discriminating Vaishnava will have to side with the devotee who left FL's cult. He made the right choice and under the circumstances I do not see that he could have done things any differently.

To whom it may concern:

This thread is about the Chris Butler group.

Please stay focused on that specific subject.

The discussion here has been about behavior not beliefs.

A theological discussion about Butler is not that meaningful within this context.

It's what the group does, not its theological premise that is the real concern on this thread.