The letters are about Butlers behavior towards those within his own religion.
But if you say no I can live with it. So are you saying I should not post the letters?

I can guarantee you Chris Butler would agree with you if the answer is no. I am sure he would hate to see those letters broadcast here.

Let's wait and hear from others on this board.

What do others here think of the letters being posted?

Quote
rrmoderator
Let's wait and hear from others on this board.

What do others here think of the letters being posted?

yes, I personally think the letter should be posted.

I have read this letter on another website a long time ago, and in my opinion there is proof within this letter of Butler's paranoid mentality, and of his not knowing what the true situation was (i.e. that there was no "soliciting of HIS disciples" on behalf of the other party).

I think the letter goes to show that Butler has an inability to cooperate with other reasonable people of the same religion.

In my opinion, the letter goes to prove that Mr. Butler does not have the qualities of a devotee as outlined by Lord Chaitanya: "I have no desire to accumulate followers..."

In my opinion, the letter goes to show that Mr. Butler's mode of thought is more like Stalin than a Vaisnava...

(Apparently Comrad Stalin had all kinds of conspiracy theories: even his most loyal right hand man was a victim ... whose wife was sent to the gulag by Stalin)

Quote
Dassi
Okay. Enough.
There are over a hundred pages
from all different angles
about FL and his little cult.
(I'm not suggesting that the discussion should end).

But now what?
What is theSOLUTION?
Can we discuss and FOCUS ON SOLUTIONS for:
The children still in the cult?
Members who want to reform things?
People who want out but are afraid?
How would you advise these people?
Support them?
What will make a positive difference in their lives?

I am not sure if there really is a solution, as it is up to each individual within the cult to look at his or her situation and to consider if their lives or their children's lives have been damaged by being within this cult.

I do believe this forum is getting the word out to current members that their Fearless Leader may not be quite what he says he is...

One could ask these people:

* Do you [b:503f237cd0]REALLY[/b:503f237cd0] believe that questioning FL's divinity will put you into God's little black book?

* Do you [b:503f237cd0]REALLY[/b:503f237cd0] believe that questioning Chris Butler's political motives and extragavant lifestyle will be displeasing to Almighty God?

* Do you [b:503f237cd0]REALLY[/b:503f237cd0] believe that giving half of your income, your inheritance, or whatever, to Chris Butler will put you into God's good books?

* Do you [b:503f237cd0]REALLY[/b:503f237cd0] believe that neglecting your children, not looking after their education, not taking care of their financial future, because you are too busy "serving guru" is the correct thing to be doing?

I would also want to advise these people that I, for one, (and probably many others on this forum) have been thankful for FL's lectures and books on Reincarnation, developing a loving relationship with God, not being the material body, etc... [b:503f237cd0]BUT LOOK AT HOW THINGS HAVE DEVELOPED SINCE THEN!!! [/b:503f237cd0]

The latest letter by the Filipino devotee brings up the question of how [b:503f237cd0]INSULAR[/b:503f237cd0] (thanks for this word, Rama!) they have become, and this is [b:503f237cd0]DEFINITELY NOT A GOOD SIGN[/b:503f237cd0]....

Any more ideas out there?
:?:

In regards to the moderater's question, and as someone who reads here frequently, I would want to say that I personally do not agree with any of this promotion and glorification of Vaishnavism and A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami and it seems like the wrong place for it.

I see the words, authority and logic of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as extremely disgusting and destructive.
I see the parameters of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as being designed specifically to create these unhealthy cult situations.

No matter how "nice" the "guru" figure may be, it is still destructive. You have the basic theme of one man rising to this god like status and the average person is supposed to take their place as their follower that comes along with all this dialogue of submitting, being the servant, not questioning the divine wisdom of your earthly god master, not to mention all the really weird stuff about aspiring to having no desire beyond following your "spiritual master" through eternity.

This is all creepy, this all extinguishes what I see as the inherent potential and birthrite of the individual to be free, to discover their own power and passion and to develop their own gifts and skills.

Rick,
Here's the thing for me.
I think that there are several types of people who hava a beef with old Chris.
One group is the Vaishnava bros,
well represented by quotesman
and was a sorely lacking voice (spokesman who really knows Vaishnavism) on this forum.
I think the letters should be presented
and people can make up their own minds.
I don't feel it is propaganda to promote a cult
unless you feel a large branch of Hiduism is a cult.

In fact a lot of the creepiness about Chris and his group is self evident
and comes out in these letters.
Let them be aired!

I do not support Vaishnavism any more than any other RELIGION,
and debate the quotester often here.
We agree to disagree.
But I think he is making valid points and tries really hard not to offend or preach.

The greater issues of the philosophy of Vaishnavism can also be debated here.

BTW quotester --- bringing up ACB and his general swamis, as well as the philosophy and basic tenents of Vaishnavism IS up for debate here and a valid issue for the forum.

I'm glad you are here quotesman. You've added a lot to the discussion even though we don't agree on everything, we can agree on some things.

Quote
Rama Das (slave name)
In regards to the moderater's question, and as someone who reads here frequently, I would want to say that I personally do not agree with any of this promotion and glorification of Vaishnavism and A.C. Bhaktivedanta swami and it seems like the wrong place for it.

I see the words, authority and logic of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami as extremely disgusting and destructive.
I see the parameters of Gaudiya Vaishnavism as being designed specifically to create these unhealthy cult situations.

No matter how "nice" the "guru" figure may be, it is still destructive. You have the basic theme of one man rising to this god like status and the average person is supposed to take their place as their follower that comes along with all this dialogue of submitting, being the servant, not questioning the divine wisdom of your earthly god master, not to mention all the really weird stuff about aspiring to having no desire beyond following your "spiritual master" through eternity.

This is all creepy, this all extinguishes what I see as the inherent potential and birthrite of the individual to be free, to discover their own power and passion and to develop their own gifts and skills.

I agree with you 100%.
But this forum is a good place to examine, question, debate, and challenge these ideas. Your opinion is important here.

Censoring quotesman will not further the cause of freedom.

I'd like to urge everyone to post everything they have that is relevant to understanding this cult leader and this cult.

I have heard Chris Butler equate himself to Jesus. He calls Jesus a "spiritual representative of God" and he calls himself a "spiritual representative of God."

I believe I have heard Chris Butler say that Jesus is not God. That contradicts my possibly flawed understanding of Christianity.

I also am not a big admirer of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I certainly see no divinity there. I am not able to judge the quality of his translations or interpretations, but you can see the "quality" of the religious cults that he has left behind.

As you can guess, I am not a big admirer of the Hare Krishna religion or Krishna Consciousness, Bhakti Yoga, yadda, yadda. (I am not a big fan of the terms "Vaishnavism" or "Vaishnavas." If we are talking about the Hare Krishna religion or Krishna Consciousness, why don't we just say so? You shouldn't have to be familiar with Sanskrit to understand this cult.)

"Vaishnavism" or "Vaishnavas" is jargon, obviously used by the supporters of this cult.

I think the letters should be posted here. I have really enjoyed the letters that Quotesman has posted. It also adds credibility and integrity to this thread as cold, hard facts tend to do.

I was much impressed by the letter written by the devotee from the Chaitanya Mission. It seems to me that this devotee shows more sincerity and craving for knowledge than FL. Probably more knowledge of shastra than FL too (LOL!)

That whole situation is absolutely ABSURD! More fuel to the fire that FLs group is a cult. Hard to make spiritual advancement when the seed is planted amongst weeds, in contaminated soil, and constantly pecked at by hungry birds.

Poor Narayan Maharaj (whom I've never heard of before) must have been deeply saddened by the struggles of this sincere devotee. I also find it interesting that this devotee had been praying very devoutly to Lord Chaitanya for association and guidance and was eventually presented with Narayan Maharaj - not FL.

Everyone should understand this important point - here is a sincere devotee with great awareness of past teachings who simply wants to make spiritual advancement but was NOT supported and even PUNISHED by guru for trying to do so. Is this not an offense????

“In my opinion, the letter goes to prove that Mr. Butler does not have the qualities of a devotee as outlined by Lord Chaitanya: "I have no desire to accumulate followers..."
googling

Yes they do prove that absolutely. It was all about prestige, money and collecting followers. There is not even a tinge of humility from FL’s side.

“In my opinion, the letter goes to show that Mr. Butler's mode of thought is more like Stalin than a Vaisnava...” googling

Absolutely true. Like a jilted high school girl Stalin.

“I think the letters should be presented
and people can make up their own minds.
I don't feel it is propaganda to promote a cult
unless you feel a large branch of Hiduism is a cult.” Dassi

Unfortunately some here do believe all of Vaishnavism is a cult. This is truly sad. But everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how biased. This is just me speaking here. I have learned a lot from non-Vaishnavas, one thing I have learned is if you want to convince an opponent of a differing view, it is a good idea to understand them. So from that point of view I do not see why there should be objection to the letters. I have tried to speak as much as possible without preaching. But what to say, I am an aspiring Vaishnava so sometimes I cannot speak without saying what I have learned or understood coming from my heart and Vaishnava tenants.

For the record, I appreciate an open forum where unreasonable censor does not take place. One thing most of us have in common is we were abused by the FL, this much we can agree with and have in common. We also agree he is no Jagad Guru.

There is an array of differing opinions here and I am just representing one more. Although I do not agree with many here on many points I think I do understand where you are coming from and how you got there. This forum has helped. I would hope others would try to understand me in the same way.

I found some of the fighting in previous pages very distasteful. Debate and argument has always been a Vaishnava tradition. However name calling back biting and back stabbing is not. Even though many who present themselves a such engage in all the mentioned. Therefore I distanced myself when all that was happening here recently.

“I do not support Vaishnavism any more than any other RELIGION,
and debate the quotester often here.
We agree to disagree.
But I think he is making valid points and tries really hard not to offend or preach.”
Dassi

I strongly support the right of every individual to practice their beliefs without hindrance. I also support any persons right to NOT believe in God. I support free speech and debate. In fact I have helped many people of other faiths understand the Vaishnava religion better. In so doing I have also understood other faiths better. If we do not understand each other how can we ever have peace between us?


“BTW quotester --- bringing up ACB and his general swamis, as well as the philosophy and basic tenents of Vaishnavism IS up for debate here and a valid issue for the forum.”
Dassi

Ok as you like. But rational arguments will be better appreciated than emotional outbursts. I do not think you have been guilty of that. But others have been, from all sides. Lets keep the debates civil. That is my humble request. I think that is where censorship is best served. Emotional outbursts and name calling does not help any side.

“I'm glad you are here quotesman. You've added a lot to the discussion even though we don't agree on everything, we can agree on some things.” Dassi

Ditto.

“Censoring quotesman will not further the cause of freedom.”
Dassi

It is curious you would say that because I just said about the exact same thing on another website.
I have been debating on a Christian site. At first I was debating the Christians then some atheists came on and I ended up on the side of the Christians helping them by giving Vedic evidences for the existence of God, mostly common sense stuff and not dogma, which they ended up appreciating very much. The webmaster Pmed me and said he was thinking of censoring the atheists and I said to him just about the exact same thing you are saying here. Then I went one better by telling him if we censor the atheists it appears we have no good argument to defeat them.

Hoax, your post was very much appreciated by me.