Dave wrote concerning a Quaker concern about being able to trust the Jesus Christians: The first flaw is that true Quakerism does not work on the basis of someone having to "earn trust". It is based on seeing that of God in others... something that requires us to more or less be reckless with our trust, in the belief that if we will trust other people, they will respond more positive
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

To continue with the thread of how offensive and racist it was for Dave to whip that Kenyan volunteer, I have to make mention of the human rights conventions it breeches. Whipping breeches the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948), the International Convention of Civil and Political Rights (1966), and the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Welcome back Yasmin. I think that you raise a really good point by saying that there appears to be no effective dissenting voice within the Jesus Christians rearding the whippings they justify. Personally I find the whipping of the Kenyan volunteer to be the most offensive of their actions to this point. To me it represents the racism and arrogance that sits at their core. The action of whipp
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Dave the "Quaker" said: Our decision to return to the whip as a form of punishment is actually based on a desire to shorten the period of punishment at the same time that we sharpen the message about punishment. Whips have been used in just about every culture, as a form of punishment, because they inflict a lot of pain without causing much more than superficial and temporary injury
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Fran twists the original point: Craig keeps pushing this line that anyone who believes it is okay to kill out of love is somehow going against 'turning the other cheek'. Well, Craig, you can get yourself a pen and paper and jot down for the record that I personally do not think that killing out of love is going against Jesus' command to 'turn the other cheek'. Are you
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Kim writes: SOURCE: "I am making an official request...can we please change the name of this thread? Please? Perhaps it could be, Franky is an attention seeker? Or, perhaps, Franky is a woman. Or, perhaps, Franky is a woman who takes charge of her own private life? or something other than what it is? I find it quite revolting seeing it whenever I open up this section."
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

More musings on Dave saying that he NOW thinks the teachings of Jesus don't have to be adhered to all the time: The question is whether Dave could extend his new liberalism toward Christ's teachings toward those who HAVE observed the same disciplines as the JC's and who were turned off by the pharisaical literalism that the community used to condemn others and yet continue to
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Dave wrote: SOURCE: "Well, we finally worked out who "Blackhat" is. Her name is XXX, and she does NOT live in XXX as she claimed (unless she has moved recently). The most recent address we have for her is in XXX. Now that we know who she is, she becomes legally responsible for the stuff she has posted on the Rick Ross forum. No wonder she freaked out and threatened to lea
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Quoting Dave on Jesus teachings: "It does seem that through our discussions we are coming to see that Jesus himself did not legalistically follow all of his teachings (e.g. refusing to give bread to the people who asked for more, and pushing through the crowd when they tried to kill him). It seems to me like we need to START with a kind of legalistic approach (or we will just rationalise
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Roland on violence: In trying to understand what Christ said about loving our enemies, I do see that there are acceptable allowances for a certain degree of force. Jesus walked through the midst of an angry crowd that were about to throw him off a cliff. I don't think that he just glided through them without them knowing what was going on. He must have been rather sneaky and a little asse
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Quoting Fran: I have been wondering whether part of the problem is that we tend to focus on the here and now. We tend to think that human life is really really important. Sometimes people act as if this life is all there is and that it must be protected at all costs. Our faith in God and in something eternal should help us to realise that there is more to life than life itself. The way I see i
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Dave is "shocked" by Casey having a confused vision on the idea of working for love. Perhaps he's trying to mirror Dave's pacifist stance? But its funny that Dave has to correct his loyal lap dog by referring to the time "when "we" were cleaning out the sewer in Chennai". Dave is actually referring to a whole crew of people he expelled. While ex members hav
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Dave wrote: "Actually, Jesse, the laws of the land DO outlaw slander (i.e. gossip which is hurtful to a person's reputation, which is almost always the case with real gossip). The problem is that there is almost a universal conspiracy against anyone being caught gossiping. It is the real reason behind the staunch loyalty that everyone seems to feel toward gossips: i.e. If I don'
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

"The serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood, after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth." (Rev. 12:15-16) Dave is getting all apocalyptic on us now stating that our criticism of his actions represent the flood coming f
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

I realised that I did not address the point Dave raised about the nasty people who "condemn the Jesus Christians for a mock trial in which we inflicted pain on ourselves as a demonstration of our love." The doublethink that expresses itself in Dave using Bonhoeffer logic to challenge Gandhian pacifism and vice versa, is also apparent in the JC trial and whippings. This trial follo
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Dave wrote: (http://welikejesus.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=16542&sid=f5e66adb7d6009ec193de9dbc829867f#16542) "An excellent illustation, Josh. I have always wondered that Bonhoeffer was considered such a hero, first, for having plotted to kill someone, and second, for failing at it. I reasoned that he is only remembered because he was so good with words, i.e. with justifying his positio
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Christine wrote regarding the Quakers: "While people fail to address the issue of gossip, they have already taken a side, whether they care to admit it or not." The charge that the Quakers have been unethical in the way they have withdrawn their fellowship with the Jesus Christians is apparently hypocritical when one reads the wild speculations that Dave publishes against them a
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Kevin's name is acknowledged on the original Easy English books and Liberator comic along with Dave's but I don't believe he ever signed anything. The "book" Cry in the Wilderness was printed up as short story in 1982 in the primitive style of their early literature according to the testimony of those who distributed it.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Rob wrote concerning a fictitious story based on a true story that Liesel is reportedly writing: "I don't think the judge is going to be so dumb as to not see that she is trying to slander real people through her chilling account "based on a true story". Usually people have to pay royalties if they want to use your story. Maybe we should sue for royalties as well as lible
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Casey said: They want you to lose your mind, act emotional and then say something stupid because you've been blinded by the anger you feel at having been accused of something so false. Do you really think we want you to "lose your mind"? Are you having to exercise that degree of self control during these debates? That is a lot of expended energy? What is it you are trying t
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

I have been thinking about the biblical role of prophet within what is presented as the "church"/"body of Christ", and that Dave is praising past ones while stoning living ones. Prophet meaning critic, that is. It is so important for any organisation to have its critics/prophets as it helps balance things out and opens eyes to blind spots where people may be experiencing abu
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

After pondering upon Dave's response a bit more. I just gotta respond some more because it is such a cop out, and one which he would never allow one of his underlings to get away with. So having said that, and bearing in mind that what is good for the goose is good for the gander... (His stuff is in italics) Dave said: I freely admit that I cannot think of a single time that I have
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Thanks for the feedback Blackhat. I am glad that you were able to take a break from the ongoing saga. Much appreciated.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Quoting Casey: There are always two sides to a grievance and part of the purpose of this forum is to give ex memebers a chance to share about what is really bothering them, but quite often, when people who feel hurt do not get the apology they want, they will "misremember" the grievance, play with time sequences, leave significant parts out in the retelling of the grievance, or just ma
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Quoting Dave doing his "it never happened" routine AGAIN: Now Craig has invented a complete myth in his own imagination, where the parade is happening, he and Attila are quoting Ghandi and controlling any would-be killers, and Dave is bug-eyed and out of control, reaching for guns that don't even exist, and calling on others to join him in killing people! Sure Dave, sure, we
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

QuoteJack Oskar LarmAnd just when the circus was getting dull: JCs and Tattoos I, for one, will be interested in Herr McKay's responses to this sticky matter, particularly 'sad' posts from potential recruits...lol I would be curious to know where Jesus says you cannot call your mother "mum". He did.... when he was hanging on the cross; eg. "Mother behold you
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

It is interesting that Dave chose to ignore the observation that there appears to be no evidence whatsover of any indivduality on their forum. We may have arguments here, but at least it is evidence of individual thought and actions. Certainly cannot say the same for the Jesus Christians. I also thought I would add a bit more to my above post after reflecting some more on Dave's past ac
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Quoting Dave: The whip situation DID involve a crime against ourselves, and we DID "turn the other cheek" in terms of offering to take the punishment ourselves. Remember that "turning the other cheek" is more or less ASKING to be "whipped", and that is what we did. Being whipped is violent... we agree. But being hit on the other cheek is violent too. We just asked t
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Thanks for your somewhat humorous support Malcolm regarding Dave's public accusations of minors. Now while wiping the mud off myself that he is doing his best to make stick, lets take some time to reflect upon some of the highlights of our discussions with Dave. One biggie was that it is perfectly justifiable in the JC courtroom to whip those considered sinful. He boldly proclaimed his
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

I wonder if Dave considers Casey to be as "fully developed" as Christine.... probably not. Sheesh, talk about flattering people to gain an advantage.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"