To whom it may concern:

Here is some material that may be helpful.

Warning Sings

See [www.culteducation.com]

Cult Formation

[www.culteducation.com]

These guidelines can help to define problems within a group.

Thanks

I hope Typicalseeker will have a good look at the Cult formation link.

Quote
notanantiGnostic
This is a very problematic statement to be making on this group.


"These groups are obviously a religion of sorts. So you think it looks interesting. You go to a few meetings, you grow disillusioned and then you leave... end of story. What's the big deal? "

Typical you have obviously not looked into the concerns of the influence and problems of being involved in a cult or cultish group. Please look into this before making further comments like this.

How could something so patently false be 'obvious'? I read this entire thread and much of this site as well as others. I spent most of my adult life in a cult and I simply left when I got tired of it.

And what exactly about my statement is 'problematic?

"Correct me if I'm wrong Typical, but it appears that you have no actual experience with any Samael Aun Weor group."
Ok, you are wrong. I have lots of experience with them.



"Did Samael truly plagiarize?" Yes as far as the question is concerned for the definition of a cultic group and also..."
In other words, it is a baseless accusation. Please show examples or be revealed as a clueless gossip monger.


"He copied whole writing patterns, ideas and concepts without quoting his sources"
That is not plagiarism when the authors are long dead and the copyright is expired. Writing patterns? No one writes in the Samael style... if Samael had copied someone else's 'pattern' his books would have been much improved.


> "Please quote the SAW words and then quote the Gurdjieff, Ouspenky or whatever.
" Pretty sure we have already done this. Since I don't really want to read any of those mind fuckers right now, I do not really want to go into further efforts at this time.
No, you haven't 'already done this'. Not even close. Can you please give an example of something that justifies the accusation, "mind *uckers"?


"You see that's the problem. No one is repeating gossip here,"
Yes, you are. I pointed that out clearly. Please try to answer my questions in a more direct manner.


"we are handling a messy situation the best we can. All of the claims that you mention are sourced in at least one of the internet sources, some academic and some from organizations. "
More hand-waving...How about some clear references?


"These people were not exactly accountable when they were alive, so it is pretty hard to have clear cut answers about them after their death. If you look at one of the best known modern claimants Mark Pritchard (who claims to be Bezlebuub), you will see some real problems with verifying much about him. He does not state the Welsh town he grew up in and nor does he state where he lives now. No one can research and verify his claims of his story. a real cult leader."

So what? Who cares where he grew up? What difference does that make?


"His lack of accountable, which also makes research pretty hard, is damning evidence in itself."
'Damning' how? Again, please substantiate your accusations with something substantial.


"We have been trying to translate or find translations of Spanish papers and research where possible to be able to verify things as possible. You will see that I have taken as many "rumors that written here and verified them to the degree I am able. I think we have a post a page or two back of someone who heard a lot of it directly from his mdoern followers. "

In other words you have not verified anything yet... you are just repeating rank, malicious gossip.




> "Perhaps you could give a few examples of the fear rhetoric and manipulation?"
"I think this has been done, in general. But also remember that we are speaking about different groups and organizations that follow one mans teachings as well as culture of running an organization. So there will be variations and degrees of behaviour. This testimony, which you are quoting can be seen as a primary source for what its worth. "

It has not been done. No examples at all were provided, neither specific nor general.


>"I have a few issues with these Samael based groups but so far what I read here does not seem to reflect reality. "
"Yes but your experience is not the only one we are dealing with here. "
(So now you acknowledge my 'experience' which contradicts your opening statement....)


>"I wish the 'injured' parties here would be more specific"
"People here are only comfortable with discussing this matters to the extent that they can."
Well then, that extent is totally lame. Childish whining and pointless complaining is all I see.



" They tend to deal with the matter to get closure from their experience and than move on. What we actually need is for a psychologist,...'"
What you really need is to back up your accusations and complaints with something substantial.



"References were made to 'rituals'... perhaps a few details would be forthcoming? "
"I have already described, about a year ago, the limited rituals which I participated in. "
That is NOT true....rituals were only mentioned, they were not described.

re; Cult Formation

It would be nice if someone could show how these Samael groups are doing the following;

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.


I have been following one of these groups for a while now and I came here to get the 'dirt' on these guys if there is any. So far there is not one valid complaint on this thread.

Typical Seeker.

"How could something so patently false be 'obvious'? I read this entire thread and much of this site as well as others. I spent most of my adult life in a cult and I simply left when I got tired of it.

And what exactly about my statement is 'problematic?"

So far I see no sign you having read the entire thread or much what this site has to over, perhaps there was no comprehension on your part.

The problem with your statement is that for starters you assume that the circumstances you went through were the same as everyone else. We can would need to deal with relationship issues, financial issues, not to mention thinks like the psychological problems or threats if they may have existed. Your I simply left line seems to come right out of the rational that is typically used by cult apologists.

Once again your what was the big deal question is a little limiting since we are dealing with a general movement related to a teaching which has not been limited to a specific organization organization in a long time.

All I can really speak of in regards to this is my own situation. Yes I left, and yes I was allowed to leave. But when I did there was a lot of ridicule and statements of failure made about me and towards me. I experienced the "no good reasons for leaving" effect. Also I had to deal with feelings of paranoia, depression, isolation and other diffculties, and this was only after 5 months of being exposed to the teachings, in a rather motified but I'm sure equally manipulative form. It actually took me close to a year to get any sense of normalcy in my thought patterns.

There are others who I have spoken with in private who have had far worse experiences. What they have told me only helps to confirm what is written here. There are many ex students of Samael Aun Weor groups who are affraid to speak out, that in its self speaks volumes for me.

I will get to the rest of your comments a little later.

From more on my personal experience and the group I was involved in read this [forum.culteducation.com]

For Typicalseeker,
"Correct me if I'm wrong Typical, but it appears that you have no actual experience with any Samael Aun Weor group."
Ok, you are wrong. I have lots of experience with them. "

What experience with any of these organizations do you have? So far it appears that all you have is experience with the writings of Victor Gomez. I'm judging you here based on your questions and lack of understanding that is effident from those question.

With this we can explain.

">"I have a few issues with these Samael based groups but so far what I read here does not seem to reflect reality. "
"Yes but your experience is not the only one we are dealing with here. "
(So now you acknowledge my 'experience' which contradicts your opening statement....) "

I state above that you I did not believe that you had actual experience with any actual Samael Aun Weor groups, that does not mean you didn't have an experience. However it appears that your experience comes completely from reading books. I stand by my point and I hope this is cleared up. I will change my position when you start demonstrating this experience, beyond reading, that you claim to have.

"Did Samael truly plagiarize?" Yes as far as the question is concerned for the definition of a cultic group and also..."
In other words, it is a baseless accusation. Please show examples or be revealed as a clueless gossip monger."

Sounds like an opinionated attack from an apologist to me. The reference to plagiarism is to someone who never had an original and copied others ideas as if they were his own, without sourcing his ideas as if they came from his own experience.

"That is not plagiarism when the authors are long dead and the copyright is expired. Writing patterns? No one writes in the Samael style... if Samael had copied someone else's 'pattern' his books would have been much improved. "

There is actually a number of places were Keir and I discuss this matter, if you are unable to find this on your own I will find it for you when I some more time.


"No, you haven't 'already done this'. Not even close. Can you please give an example of something that justifies the accusation, "mind *uckers"?"

Is it not obvious that mind fucker is an opinion statement? In my experience and in my opinion this whole nonsense is a mind fuck, Victor Gomez and everyone who spreads his teaching is a mind fucker. In regards to the rest of your statement do you the work yourself or wait.


"So what? Who cares where he grew up? What difference does that make? "

I noticed that you only brought up my concern about where he was born, not the current problem of where he lives at this time. Are you from the Gnostic Movement? my point is that not including either pieces of information means that no one can check on the story either of his past or his present. There is also an account he gives where he is falsely accused of a crime against a student. Would it not be interesting to check to see what was actually going on with ths case of Mark Pritchard miss treating a student of one of his centres, instead of just accepting his story, where it only acts as a stage on his path towards enlightenment to be treated like a god?

"In other words you have not verified anything yet... you are just repeating rank, malicious gossip."

Again how about you do some research yourself? Have you even opened the links provided?

""References were made to 'rituals'... perhaps a few details would be forthcoming? "
"I have already described, about a year ago, the limited rituals which I participated in. "
That is NOT true....rituals were only mentioned, they were not described."

Now you see this rather interesting TypicalSeeker. You certainly did get the typical part right by the way. If you had actually read my reference you would see that there is was not much of a ritual related to the group I was involved in ( the Gnostic Movement). However some people might interpret certain things as being rituals. However I can now see that that in place of rituals they had dogmatic believes about day to day activities, such as never eating pork and never even eating in a place that served pork, not blowing out candles but always using a snorfer as that offended the nature of the flame. More ritualistic activities included having a more secret and private place for more advanced students, where beginner level students were not permitted to go. I no longer see this as being purely "ritualistc" but is rather secretic as only those who had passed certain unofficial test had been passed.

You may be interested in learning about words like speculation, or heresey instead of using words like gossip. This would be much more appropriate when someone is making a reference to a source, which has been discussed for a long time on a forum that has a disclaimer that states it is opinion.

Keep up the good work Typical.

"re; Cult Formation

It would be nice if someone could show how these Samael groups are doing the following;

1. a charismatic leader who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose their power;
2. a process I call coercive persuasion or thought reform;
3. economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.


I have been following one of these groups for a while now and I came here to get the 'dirt' on these guys if there is any. So far there is not one valid complaint on this thread."

I don't know TypcialSeeker with all of your experience why don't you do this work instead of making excuses for the group that belong to? Do you expect others to do your homework for you? I really do not feel like going all over this forum for to find the references that you need.