Lately I have been thinking of the interesting situation we are in with the Samael Aun Weor teachings and how to deal with all these different groups.

Clearly with Victor Gomez aka Samael Aun Weor we are not dealing with a current cult leader but a former cult leader and his suspect teachings. One way to bring up a concern is just simple on the basis of his wacky ideas or the weird things he did in his life, like calling a son Osiris.

Many of the groups that pepetuate his teachings good easily be categorized in the suspect groups or groups of concern category, like many former cults. By this kind of group I am thinking of those non affiliate groups that are doing nothing else but promoting his works on the internet, they are usually the groups that are most helpful when you want to find a source for his writings.

Than we have groups that could be considered to be like a day to day typical cult like the Gnostic Movement led by Mark Pritchard and most pretty well others who are active in the English speaking world.

However there seems to be third cetegory that is more dangerous and even gets called a cult by the some what normal groups, those groups in South America that Keir was mentioning who you could worry about being involved in dangerous action such as suicide actions or doomsday activities. Apparently there are also remnants of the Robolu school or New Order movement. I was told they simple stopped recruiting but are still out there. This is whole Pritchard can perpetuate the idea that the divine masters basically made them scatter to the wind. From what I was told this is not true they are out there, I quess acting like secret societies. Keep in mind that they are in the western world and no one knows what really happened, well at least no one who is willing to speak objectively about it. I think they have followed a lot of the nuttiness around 2012, as newagers search out his book for that reason.

Just thought we should start thinking about how these are related phenomenon but not the same. It has been far easier to pin down the problems of the Gnostic Movement because we are dealing with a specific group.

Hi all. I'm quite baffled at people trying to convince others that Samael (Victor Gomez) was plagiarizing other people's or organizations material. Wasn't that the case also with Alesteir Crowley, Israel Regardie, Mather's etc.? I don't like the defamatory aspect. However light is the best desinfectant.

This is pretty funny. Clearly silver here is a Samael Aun Weor follower.

You wish to dispute how Victor Gomez was a plagiarizer (he was also insane by the way), but so far you have done nothing to come back the argument that has been made in this area. What did Victor do was original in any way shape or form that was not obviously created to put down others or to spread fear?

I am not a big fan of Crowley but he was light years ahead of Gomez. Do you know about Crowley being the first person to translate the Tao Te Ching and make it accessible to Europeans? And this was an effort at pure translation, unlike the interpretation that Gomez attempted of the Pistis Sophia where he all he did was add in his nonsense. By the way if you want the source of the Pistis Sophia look for Mead.

"However light is the best desinfectant." Sounds like some pseudo-Gnostic nonsense to me.

No, I think you're the one who's funny here. I'm not a follower of anyone sect or religion. And just because I have found Samael Aun Weor to be a good collaborator and revolutionizer of gnostic material doesn't mean that I have any desire to start a silly debate with you. If you don't like don't read it.

Are you trying to upset me by assaulting what I quoted?

silver:

You should exxpect a "debate" if you are here to defend a group being criticized on this thread. And it would be "silly" to think otherwise.

No I am trying to do anything like that I was just point out the problems of your position. I feel I have an obligation to do so and will continue to take such action.

I said you were a Samael Aun Weor follower, not that you belonged to any particular group. If you think he was a good collaborator than you need to look further. There is nothing revolutionary about what he wrote. However he did live in a society that was going through revolutions and such language was potent at the time, and ti was also a comment against the Marxism that he was against.

As far as Gnostic Material, Gomez died to early to have access to most of them, with the exception of the pistis Sophia, which we do not know the origin of.

It is not possible to assault what you quoted since you have not quoted anything.


Sliver all the best on getting clear on this matter.

Hello all.
I was involved with a Samael-type "Gnostic" group in the U.S. for a several years, and stopped about a year ago. Recently i was reflecting on the experience, and tried to find some websites for people who had formerly been involved, or even some kind of investigative reports on them. I bear no resentment or malice, i just don't know who i have this experience in common with, and there are still things i wonder about them. I found this site, but might keep looking for more info. I had already noticed that there is scarcely any scholarly or professional journalistic information on any Samael based groups. They really fly below the radar despite their widespread advertising, and apparent large membership in the Spanish-speaking world (of which i am not familiar). The threads on this message board have been quite interesting, and i decided to register and post this reply, maybe to reach out, or maybe for a chance to try to articulate something i never had a chance to tell others about.
If anybody is interested, i can describe the group, although before anyone gets excited i will say upfront that i did not witness anything spectacular or sinister beyond the level that you would find in any new-age group or church youth organization (in my opinion anyway). I have suspicions about things that may occur that i never had the chance to witness, but i do not believe in slandering or accusing based on such feelings. I have no evidence of any criminal activity, although i would speculate that some of their ridiculous medical advice could someday land them in civil court. I can give examples if you wish, but none of this is secret; they openly publish and answer questions about their doctrine.
There are evidently many "gnostic" groups, many either unaffiliated or embattled with others, but i can only comment on the one i was involved with. They are based in the United States, and are English speaking, although their "top guy" (for lack of a better term) was Central American and claimed to have studied with Samael himself in Mexico. He went by his normal name and did not claim any title like "master", at least not that i know of. The organization is mostly run by a handful of couples, who have "schools" around the country- "schools" here usually meaning a room of one of their houses renovated to be a sort of classroom. I find nothing wrong with such a setup, i just want to be clear that we aren't talking about an organization like the Mormons or the Freemasons, or other such mainstream, well-funded groups. Their main school is in New York City, which i visited a few times, and they ran "international retreats" which i also attended. Their main activity and mission seemed to be publishing books by Samael Aun Weor, in English. Some of you by now probably know who i mean based on that last sentence. I would speculate based on what i saw that they were self-publishers who arranged for a "vanity press" to print their books, which they then sold to their students and on amazon. I bought quite a few of them myself.

My post has been long enough, i would be glad to elaborate on anything for anybody who is interested. If it is felt that this post should be in a different thread or catagory, that is fine. I say that because there is a lot of material in this thread about South American organizations with which i had no involvement, and which do not resemble the group i was with. There are also some opinions here i would not attach myself to, although i can certainly understand the enthusiasm.
I regret the years of my life i wasted studying their ludicrous doctrine, socially isolating myself the whole time, but i think I now understand why i did. It had more to do with me than them. I may be interested in talking to anybody who is in the NJ/NYC area who had a similar experience and wants somebody to discuss it with. Feel free to contact me if you fall in that category, because i don't know anybody who would really be able to talk with me about my experience with any understanding.
To be clear, I have no axe to grind with this group, and will not participate in slandering them. Neither am i looking for sympathy or help coping with my experience, i am quite healthy nowadays :)
I think that a reasoned analysis of their doctrine is fair, although as anybody who was involved with them may suspect, they would probably reject such an attempt as an "attack" or misunderstanding. In my opinion.
take care

Hi Justdan,

Thanks for your contribution to our discussion, you are certainly in the right place, however if you also want to have an indepth discussion about the particular group you can also create a discussion for that as well. I participate in this discussion, when there is anything to talk about but I have also created a discussion-information piece on the group I was in (from my point of view and the others who have posted), which is the Gnostic Movement led by Mark Pritchard aka Belzebuub. [forum.culteducation.com]. That should tell you about my personal experience and my perspective on it.

This leads me to my main point. It is very important to remember that the Samael Aun Weor phenomenon is a very broad topic, and this thread is not really about any specific aspect of that phenomenon. The one unifying aspect that we are all dealing with is the philosophy of Victor Gomez aka Samael Aun Weor. Something that is very helpful is to look at the life of the man in question to understand where his philosophy and believes came from. That is one of the main reasons why Latin America comes up so much, in addition to that that area is still effected so heavily by his messed up thinking.

Next I think we are then dealing with the particular schools of thought on spreading the Aun Weor teachings, a few weeks ago I attempted to create a scale for the type of groups are dealing with, or at least proposed that one should be worked on which conveys a danger level to individuals and society. From what you say the group you were involved in might belong on the mild end of the scale, where the Gnostic Movement is in the middle to a little higher. This important to keep in mind when you are evaluating others statements here, they may be coming from a completely different experience than you.

You mention that you consider the group you were in to be of no more concern than the typical religious group or youth group. But why should they not also be of concern?

I very much agree with you that more research needs to be done, that is why I have attempted to bring together as many sources as possible and reference them here. On that note i would like you to consider being more descriptive about group you were in and gives us a name, for those of us who do not know. Of course this would all be read as your perspective and therefore not slander. The key part of slander would be speaking about something that isn't true to the best of your knowledge (basically).

From my judgment I would say that Victor Gomez qualified as a cult leader for most of his life, some of the modern groups are less dangerous than him and some are more dangerous.

My biggest concern is the effect that these teachings have on peoples psychology, as it messed me up pretty bad. So I come at this from a limited but pretty significant experience. For me I could see the teachings doing the opposite of what they claimed to do.

Your point about Samael Aun Weor supporters seeing any analysis as an attack is quite accurate, for me this seems to show that there is something to hide and to be fearful of. It is not that they are sacrifcing children or torturing animals, it is the effect of the teachings and the manipulation that is used that is of concern. As I state before some groups are worse than others.

I think I have addressed my main concerns in your post.

Take care

I had written a long reply, but i think i got logged out while typing it because i took too long.
I'll sum up as follows:

The group i was familiar with was called Thelema Press, and they had a website called gnosis-usa.com. They have changed names to Glorian Publishing, and have several websites, most notably gnosticteachings.org. They are based out of NYC, which i live near, and i had attended lectures at their "school" there. They hold retreats, which i also attended. They are loosely affiliated with some other "gnostic schools," some of which are Spanish-speaking, but they strongly condemn and disavow gnosticweb (formerly mysticweb) along with a few other groups. This splintering and rivalry among the Samael movements has been noted in this thread already. The group i am speaking of is American, and English speaking, although the man i perceived to be their leader was originally Central American, and claimed to have practiced with Samael Aun Weor personally in Mexico.

Their primary activity is to print books written by "Samael Aun Weor," translated into English, which they then sell on their website along with incense and other schlock. They have made great efforts to be the pre-eminent publisher of Samael books in English, and sell on amazon as well. When i say "publish," from what i can tell they are self publishers who pay a vanity press to print their books.
They have sparse attendance at their lectures, but they still manage to produce high quality websites and books, so i assume the majority of their following is online; indeed that is how i first became familiar with them.

The pattern i observed in their recruiting and indoctrination was that people with intense interest in "gnosis" or other spiritual/metaphysical topics would come across their website or go to a lecture, but upon hearing their doctrine promptly move along. The "students" who stayed on and retained interest were very few. There is a small number of highly dedicated members who help run the organization, giving lectures at various locations around the country (usually in their home, a room in which they have renovated to serve such a function). Their funding is derived from donations and books sales, and i would not speculate that there is any underhanded financial activity. I did not perceive any rigid hierarchy, but there were deeper levels that were hinted at, and their was an obvious deference to their senior teacher, the man i mentioned already.

To accuse them of anything illegal or immoral would be difficult, regardless of how i feel i was manipulated into accepting a ridiculous doctrine. I will say however, that their medical advice is possibly an area that could land them in some trouble. They publish a book called "Occult Medicine and Practical Magic," that you can find on amazon or their website, that is an absolute farce. I'll give you an example. Somebody suffering from cancer is advised to be treated by a "gnostic doctor" who would give them a rattlesnake to eat. If they weren't cured, well it was the will of their "inner being." Another condition, i forget what is it, is supposed to be treated by drinking a potion made of herbs and goat feces. I am not making these up. I do not know the laws regarding irresponsible medical advice, and i was not ever personally offered actual medical care or products from them, but i would suspect that such stone-age treatments may someday land them in some trouble. They were careful to say that only certain people were qualified to administer these cures, and no qualified people were ever introduced. I have no idea if they sought legal advice on how to publish this material.

I could go on some more if anybody has any questions, but i will leave it there for today. There are some laughable rituals that i was roped into believing in that i could describe. If my other post appears, i apologize for the redundant information. Again, i leave the door open to anybody who was involved with this group (you would certainly know from my description whether or not you were) or a similar one if you want to contact me to talk about it. I have no intention of pursuing an agenda against this group, but understand its pretty embarrassing to realize you were in a cult and that it might be hard to find someone to talk to about it, so that is why i offer. To those in the group that may monitor this forum, i would only say that i bear no ill will toward you, i am merely describing your group in plain terms. Nothing i have said was imparted to me in confidence, and any personal conversations i may have had with members will remain private. If you are uncomfortable with my description, then seriously consider what you are doing, because i am merely dragging out into the light.
take care

Thanks Justdan,

That is great.

I believe that it is common for Aun Weor groups to do a lot with very little money. The Gnostic Movement /Gnosticweb is the same way. Both the organization you were with and the Gnostic movement over very simliar programs, online courses, publishing of books and centres. Glorian press or what ever name it may use seems to be more middle in general than the Gnostic Movement, but that is my personal bias. The grass is always greener on the other side.

As far as their imparting of information goes I think they probably believe that they should deliver it exactly the way that "Samael" wrote it and particularly in the area of medicine it will lead to trouble. Something I have discussed in the other thread is how The Gnostic Movement has attempted to clean their hands of any damage that may result from practices. The astral projection practices that they encourage people to explore hold great potential but are also quite dangerous your brain and your psychology. We don't even need to get into medical advise to see actual danger in a teaching. They actually attempt to wash their hands clean of any death that may result.