I would just like to add one more detail to the record, for anyone who reads these forums trying to find information on the group i was talking about.
The over-arching feature of their doctrine is the sexual aspect of it. They teach a version of "chasity" that is pretty interesting, although not unheard of in certain new-age and eastern traditions. They insist that people should never have an orgasm, and that a man should never "spill" any semen. Ever. They promote practices of "alchemy" where a man and a woman have sex without, for lack of a better term, finishing in the way most people would. I know that this is similar to something gnosticweb (mysticweb when i was familiar with them) promotes. I never saw anybody do this, they said it was for a committed couple to do in private, but the practice they describe involves saying mantras and visualizing their sexual energy "transmuting," and other such things. I was single throughout the time of my involvement, so i do not know the impact this practice would have, nor do i know if there is any private instruction that they offer a couple who is interested. It would be interesting to hear from somebody who had engaged in this for a few years and then quit, to describe what effect it had on their sexual functions, not to mention their psychology. As a single person i had been simply chaste, which has effects of its own, but that is not as strange, as there are many religious people who refrain from any sexual acts or stimulation while they are unmarried. To begin having sex without finishing it must take extreme discipline and dedication to an ideal, perhaps that is what this group wants in people.
This practice is so central to their doctrine that it is repeated almost constantly in their lectures and in the books written by Samael. They also contend that single people will not make progress in "the work" until they find a spouse to take up this practice with, and they insist that homosexuals are completely lost causes. I cannot overemphasize how obsessed they are with sexual issues. It really is their one answer to all the universe's problems. I can only hope that my own psychology has recovered from this warped doctrine, and hope that others who have taken it seriously can be normal again.

Is it possible that their leader gains sexual access to women in the group by promoting this stuff? Possibly offering to teach them the methods? I have no idea, and it would be hard to make such an accusation since all the instructors were married and promoted monogamy. Again, what went on in deeper levels is known only to them. It is interesting to note that Victor Gomez, aka Samael Aun Weor, the founder of their movement, had quite a few children for someone who never spilled semen, some with women other than his wife. They have an explanation for that of course, which is a little tedious to explain. It is also interesting to note that many cults have strict guidelines on sex, often teaching some kind of chastity, while the leader/guru/whatever seems to gain sexual access to the female members. Just a pattern i've noticed. Whether or not anything like that happens in these gnostic groups is hard to say. They could simply be hung up on sexual issues for whatever reason, and whether or not their leaders are themselves chaste may vary from group to group.
As i mentioned, attendance at their lectures is sparse, as one would imagine for a group that promotes such an unpopular idea. The key may be that the few people you can convince of this doctrine would necessarily be troubled individuals ready to believe almost anything.

Hi Justdan,

Maybe you can go more into what you know about the sexual activities of Victor Gomez aka Samael Aun Weor or at least from the perspective of what you have heard. My understanding of it from what I had heard in this thread was that he took another woman to preform "alchemy" with after his wife hit menopause. As you may have eluted to in my time with the Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb It was taught that there was a time when someone on the path to be a master had to give up alchemy for a time and than take another partner to do it with, despite all the love involved. This version is probably another take on the same story. It is sounds like a justification for the teacher to take advantage of the female students.

You should know that the first major rift seems to have taken place in the Samael Aun Weor Movement when he left his wife and went to another woman. I would assume that was 1960 when supposedly everyone left him.

Interesting that you suggest that there were several other women.

So much of his life is a mystery, particularly for those who were involved in the more dishonest groups.

Yesterday I was thinking about what kind of impact his school days in the Jesuit school had on him. The Jesuits system of education and debate as well as manipulation is quite powerful. We should reference the term Jesuitical here, which essentially means manipulative or conniving. This skill would help him to convince people of his nonsense.

Good questions, sorry if i implied that i know more than i do. I can only relate what the instructors of my former group said, and regrettfully i did not ask them where their information could be found or confirmed. The story went that he had a wife when he was young, who he divorced. No name was given, nor any details. It was said not to matter much. Then he was said to have married his spiritual partner, Arnolda De Garro i believe (you can check their material for correct spellings), who was an integral part of his movement and who was eventually said to be a "master" herself, taking the spiritual title of "Litelantes" and contributing to the doctrine here and there. They had several children. Beyond that it was mentioned that he had other sexual partners later in life to satisfy karma, or some such vague explanation, and this was with no details given. When the matters of how many sexual partners he had, or how many children he had and with whom came up, answers were reluctant and vague. One person high up in the group actually denied all this at first, before they got their story straightened out. I do not know the specifics of his other partners, but somebody seemed to know something. I felt that they were afraid it might be an embarrassing topic. So its possible that the information is out there somewhere, and that they rather you didn't know it.

I remember at one point they got into an extensive explanation of why someone very high on the spiritual path had to re-unite sexually with spouses from past lives so they could complete their work. They referenced material other than Samael's on this one, it appreared to be doctrine that they themselves were coming up with. Whether it was a revisionist attempt to explain what Gomez had done, or one of them deciding it was something they wanted to do, i do not know.

Mr. Gomez's actual biography is a murky topic indeed. I doubt we will ever know exactly what his life was, especially since decades have gone by since his death, and people who may remember him will be increasingly harder to find. That is assuming any sort of journalists or academics took up the task of trying to research his life and the movement he founded, which doesn't seem likely soon. There may for all we know be reliable and abundant information available in South America or Mexico, but for now he remains obscure to larger world.

The biographical information given by his followers and himself is not very useful or objective. It is usually in the abstract terminology that he created, and doesn't mention many actual facts; instead it focuses on his alleged spiritual accomplishments - none of which can be proven obviously. His so callled autobiography "The Three Mountains" is a good example of this, which unfortunately i read.

Thanks so much Justdan,

That is a very helpful account, certainly don't be sorry, I don't expect you to know everything just wanted to see what you did know or at least better get your perspective and you have kindly given both.

I think you have give some really good clues for further research, mostly in the area of the suggestions of his sexual activities later in life. Quite likely we will find evidence of the sexual exploitation and access that is common to a cult leader as well as the common hypocrisy.

By the way the Gnostic Movement/Gnosticweb completely denied any of the mixed sexual history of Gomez to the greatest extent that they could. Your explanation really helps me out. Perhaps we can find more about what appears to be the sexual exploitation of students/followers.

It would be nice if someone could provide some facts to back up the claims made here.

Did Samael truly plagiarize? When, where and how? Please quote the SAW words and then quote the Gurdjieff, Ouspenky or whatever. I read all three of these authors and I saw similarities but it is not plagiarism to use and build on the ideas of another, especially when they are long since dead. The man's skill as a writer was dubious at best. Much of it bordered on just random stream of consciousness. Much was just plain absurd. The claim that he authored 70 books is ridiculous too. I just printed out one of his so called 'books'. A whole seven pages! Many others were just transcriptions of talks he gave and Q&A sessions. I have seen other religious leaders make the same sort of claims. But its not really a big deal if you ask me.

Samael had 4 kids... now that is interesting. I think it would be possible for one chance conception while practicing 'alchemy' as he calls it, but FOUR?.... Not likely. I think the SAW fans got some explaining to do on that one.

I think it would be useful to know and understand the circumstances around Samael's divorce from his first wife.

The rumors of other affairs with offspring are something that should be substantiated in some way. To merely repeat the rumor without providing a reputable source is just rank, malicious gossip.

I had also heard about the story of Samael practicing alchemy with other women after his wife's hysterectomy, but again this needs to be substantiated in some way. If true, I think it would be rather damning evidence that the man was a bit of a fraud.

Are there substantial facts about these things or is it just rumor?

"They use a progression fear base method of manipulation. When you first join the free lectures they appear as a innocent spiritual school. But as several months pass they start increasing their fear rhetoric. Its fearful message repeated over and over again little by little. "


Perhaps you could give a few examples of the fear rhetoric and manipulation?

I have a few issues with these Samael based groups but so far what I read here does not seem to reflect reality.

Beyond the typical "Hell" scenarios found in most religions, there does not seem to be extraordinary levels of fear mongering going on.

I wish the 'injured' parties here would be more specific. How exactly were you hurt by these groups? How long were you in them? Did they extract large sums of money from you? Did they lock you in a closet and try to brainwash you? References were made to 'rituals'... perhaps a few details would be forthcoming?

These groups are obviously a religion of sorts. So you think it looks interesting. You go to a few meetings, you grow disillusioned and then you leave... end of story. What's the big deal?

?

here-now

My opinion from reading what you wrote here is that you never really got over the nonsense of the Samael Aun Weor teachings, at least to a certain extent.

Also I wish to repost my response to your statement about investigating for yourself from the "Gnostic Movement" discussion.

"This all sounds quite nice, however students are being biased in their interpretation of what they see and experience as a result of the "teachings" that they have received. It is well known what happens in a hegemonic organization to findings and opinions are that no acceptable. They are eliminated, either by being pushed to leave or change their minds. I personally left because I found out things that did not fit. "

Ok now I will deal with TypicalSeeker,

Sorry I have been busy with the holidays. Correct me if I'm wrong Typical, but it appears that you have no actual experience with any Samael Aun Weor group.

"Did Samael truly plagiarize?" Yes as far as the question is concerned for the definition of a cultic group and also quite likely under the conditions of legal copyright, if he wasn't just plagiarizing other loons. He copied whole writing patterns, ideas and concepts without quoting his sources. This was done to give the impression that Gomez was much more of an authority than he actually was. We have already had quite a detailed discussion on this. If you would like to dispute any particular points on this matter go ahead, we can deal with that.

"Please quote the SAW words and then quote the Gurdjieff, Ouspenky or whatever. " Pretty sure we have already done this. Since I don't really want to read any of those mind fuckers right now, I do not really want to go into further efforts at this time.

"To merely repeat the rumor without providing a reputable source is just rank, malicious gossip."

You see that's the problem. No one is repeating gossip here, we are handling a messy situation the best we can. All of the claims that you mention are sourced in at least one of the internet sources, some academic and some from organizations. These people were not exactly accountable when they were alive, so it is pretty hard to have clear cut answers about them after their death. If you look at one of the best known modern claimants Mark Pritchard (who claims to be Bezlebuub), you will see some real problems with verifying much about him. He does not state the Welsh town he grew up in and nor does he state where he lives now. No one can research and verify his claims of his story. a real cult leader.

"I think it would be possible for one chance conception while practicing 'alchemy' as he calls it, but FOUR?.... Not likely. I think the SAW fans got some explaining to do on that one. " Yes it is all full of lies and there is also good evidence of double standards for Gomez and others of power.

"If true, I think it would be rather damning evidence that the man was a bit of a fraud. " His lack of accountable, which also makes research pretty hard, is damning evidence in itself.

We have been trying to translate or find translations of Spanish papers and research where possible to be able to verify things as possible. You will see that I have taken as many "rumors that written here and verified them to the degree I am able. I think we have a post a page or two back of someone who heard a lot of it directly from his mdoern followers.

"Perhaps you could give a few examples of the fear rhetoric and manipulation?"

I think this has been done, in general. But also remember that we are speaking about different groups and organizations that follow one mans teachings as well as culture of running an organization. So there will be variations and degrees of behaviour. This testimony, which you are quoting can be seen as a primary source for what its worth.

"I have a few issues with these Samael based groups but so far what I read here does not seem to reflect reality. "

Yes but your experience is not the only one we are dealing with here.

"there does not seem to be extraordinary levels of fear mongering going on. "

No fear mongering from what I have seen. There is an effort to understand what has been experienced. Have you read about the Samael Aun Weor suicide cult? There is certainly an dangerous extreme in this movement.

"I wish the 'injured' parties here would be more specific"

People here are only comfortable with discussing this matters to the extent that they can. They tend to deal with the matter to get closure from their experience and than move on. What we actually need is for a psychologist, anthropologist or sociologist to research this movement in a much more extensive extent, using the leads that are provided. Finding the appropriate limits and scope would be rather difficult.

"References were made to 'rituals'... perhaps a few details would be forthcoming? "

I have already described, about a year ago, the limited rituals which I participated in. The particular group had limited rituals but had a lot of superstitions. Other groups might not be the same.

This is a very problematic statement to be making on this group.


"These groups are obviously a religion of sorts. So you think it looks interesting. You go to a few meetings, you grow disillusioned and then you leave... end of story. What's the big deal? "

Typical you have obviously not looked into the concerns of the influence and problems of being involved in a cult or cultish group. Please look into this before making further comments like this.