Hi Hitch. Being that the Lotus Sutra "is an important literary, historical, moral and ethical document." and the Human Revolution "is simplisticaly transparent, amateurish, and just plain stupid.", why do you think SGI members assiduously study and covet the Human Revolution at the expense of the Lotus Sutra?

Nichijew

Hey, Nichijew...I know this question is posed to Hitch, but I wanted to comment, too. SGI members are encouraged to accept the The Human Revolutions, new and old, as the best and most correct blueprint for achieving Kosen-rufu. Of course, "written" by Yamamoto/Ikeda. Who is the Wisest Dude in the Universe. Shakyamuni? Who dat??!!

The Lotus Sutra really hasn't seemed to matter in a long, long time, if ever, with SGI. I never recall being educated about his life, except brief bits, when I attended study meetings, or even regular meetings. It was all leading to Ikeda.

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Nichijew
Hi Hitch. Being that the Lotus Sutra "is an important literary, historical, moral and ethical document." and the Human Revolution "is simplisticaly transparent, amateurish, and just plain stupid.", why do you think SGI members assiduously study and covet the Human Revolution at the expense of the Lotus Sutra?

Nichijew

Hi Nichijew, the HR novel has always struck me as a transparent self-serving ploy to create a cult of the personality around the gakkai and its presidents, especially the 3rd one. It wasn't touted as strongly as it appears to be now, back when I was in the practice. I remember it getting a mention now & then, but it certainly wasn't an obsession. I've noticed that the gakkai cult undergoes revisions in philosophy and changes their top-down official "guidance" algorithm to suit their needs and the times. I suspect the current focus on the HR has a lot to do with the break with the priesthood and is done to widen and increase the polarity of the schism. The refocus may be a manifestation of Ikeda's and the organization's current insecurities and/or deluded mindset. That's my take on it, fwiw.

I've always viewed the HR series as a hack job and had to suppress my desire to roll my eyes whenever a "leader" would (on rare occasions then) gush about it.

Some more random posts that I'd kind of like to comment on:

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dragon14
Somehow I didn't make many friends in the Gakkai after 17 years as a member. There were a couple that I had some interest in pursuing after my departure, but they've all gone cold and I don't really miss them. To be honest, the whole time I felt like an outsider in the group even though I was heavily involved in activities.

Although I've been told that quite a few of them miss me, I can't say that the feeling is mutual. They've always struck me as a rather superficial bunch of so-called "friends." I ran into one person who is now a salaried leader and the arrogance was dripping out of their ears and their eyes had helter-skelter written in them. It was amusingly bizarre. If I had to sum it up in one word, it would be "creepsville."

"Better out than in" - as per wakatta & Shrek. ;-)

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quiet one

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evergreen

Daily life has been interesting lately. You see, I've always been told to chant about my problems. Since I've stopped practicing I don't chant (some others on this forum still do on their own or through another Nichiren school). I don't think I've ever had to deal with my problems head on, alone. It was always in the back of my mind that problems were there because I didn't chant enough, or that I was lessening my karmic retribution, or that I was being protected from something worse happening (benefit). Its hard to do, but fortunately I'm equipped now to be an adult. Sometimes there is no reason/logic for hardships.

Many people who are members of SGI don't try very hard in their everyday life, it seems to me. They just chant about problems that they have instead of really working and thinking things out. Good or bad things happen to them randomly, not necessarily due to work or planning, and then the good things are attributed to chanting, and the bad things are attributed to karma. We were told not to think things out. Use the "Strategy of the Lotus Sutra" to address problems (whatever that means??) is something that I heard many times.

For me, daily life has also been interesting lately. Without the cloud of SGI hanging over my head, I am enjoying life!

Regarding the bolded above, I've always had to kind of laugh about this. I've noticed the exact same thing. They'll literally chant until the cows come home (or not) and never actually take real action or do something in reality to solve and address the problem. Trying to chant away their problems or at least chant about them until they can change the way they view them or find a new way to accept it. I'm aware that they also give "guidance" on the importance of taking action, but I very rarely saw that actually happen.

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SGBye
It seems that you had a rebellious streak in you and I was the same. I would go along with the SGI shenanigans, but I'd be rolling my eyes at the same time and thinking, "Are these people for real?" But children are taught to listen to their elders and authority figures - in our case, gakkai leaders - and so I did what I was told.

I ran across a few individuals of like mind in the y(m)d. Once we found each other (I don't even remember how it happened, we must have naturally gravitated towards each other's (lack of) "ichinen"), we had a ball sitting back, watching and occasionally making comments about the goings on and certain individuals. Looking back, I think it was a way of shielding ourselves from much of the craziness and zealotry.

You're right. As a child, we had no choice but to endure it. It's not like we could have gotten up, walked out and driven ourselves somewhere else or home. Once I reached driving age, though, that's exactly what I did more & more. The older I got, they became less an "authority" figure and more clown-like in my eyes. I felt like I was escaping from the circus sometimes. I kind of went thru 3 phases: 1) blind obedience, 2) a balance of obedience and disobedience & 3) defiance. Regarding phase #2, I would go, show up, stay for a while (sometimes for the whole time if they didn't go nuts) or until the manipulation and power games started, then I'd just say "adios." One parent was cool with it and took my side of things, "he went, gave it a try, what more do you want" and the other had to grudgingly accept it (the red-yellow-blue bandana wearing gakkai soldier). It got uglier when I moved into phase #3, both at home & at activities.

Yup, I was rebellious. If not, I'd probably still be in it. A little rebelliousness is definitely a healthy thing.

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Hitch
Some more random posts that I'd kind of like to comment on:

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dragon14
Somehow I didn't make many friends in the Gakkai after 17 years as a member. There were a couple that I had some interest in pursuing after my departure, but they've all gone cold and I don't really miss them. To be honest, the whole time I felt like an outsider in the group even though I was heavily involved in activities.

Although I've been told that quite a few of them miss me, I can't say that the feeling is mutual. They've always struck me as a rather superficial bunch of so-called "friends." I ran into one person who is now a salaried leader and the arrogance was dripping out of their ears and their eyes had helter-skelter written in them. It was amusingly bizarre. If I had to sum it up in one word, it would be "creepsville."

"Better out than in" - as per wakatta & Shrek. ;-)

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quiet one

Quote
evergreen

Daily life has been interesting lately. You see, I've always been told to chant about my problems. Since I've stopped practicing I don't chant (some others on this forum still do on their own or through another Nichiren school). I don't think I've ever had to deal with my problems head on, alone. It was always in the back of my mind that problems were there because I didn't chant enough, or that I was lessening my karmic retribution, or that I was being protected from something worse happening (benefit). Its hard to do, but fortunately I'm equipped now to be an adult. Sometimes there is no reason/logic for hardships.

Many people who are members of SGI don't try very hard in their everyday life, it seems to me. They just chant about problems that they have instead of really working and thinking things out. Good or bad things happen to them randomly, not necessarily due to work or planning, and then the good things are attributed to chanting, and the bad things are attributed to karma. We were told not to think things out. Use the "Strategy of the Lotus Sutra" to address problems (whatever that means??) is something that I heard many times.

For me, daily life has also been interesting lately. Without the cloud of SGI hanging over my head, I am enjoying life!

Regarding the bolded above, I've always had to kind of laugh about this. I've noticed the exact same thing. They'll literally chant until the cows come home (or not) and never actually take real action or do something in reality to solve and address the problem. Trying to chant away their problems or at least chant about them until they can change the way they view them or find a new way to accept it. I'm aware that they also give "guidance" on the importance of taking action, but I very rarely saw that actually happen.

The proof is in the pudding, Hitch...I feel very strongly about what I had expressed in a previous post. If you will not, cannot, (or both) accept and come to terms with issues you are facing in your life, well...ya get what ya get. Just chanting for hours and hours won't do a heck of a lot. It falls into magical thinking. Everything will be just fine if I chant and do activities!

Tons of chanting and tons of activities create a situation where you don't have to face the painful nitty-gritties. High "life-conditions", too. Therefore, that's why members' lives don't always have a lot to show for "actual proof" with what would be considered on-going Karma--karma that never seems to go away.

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Shavoy
Tons of chanting and tons of activities create a situation where you don't have to face the painful nitty-gritties. High "life-conditions", too. Therefore, that's why members' lives don't always have a lot to show for "actual proof" with what would be considered on-going Karma--karma that never seems to go away.

That's the co-main reason my wife and I left. Twenty years in the Gakkai and my wife was dying [literally] and I was nearly a broke doctor despite tons of chanting and activities. Now we are complete and because of our experience of a better way and never wanting another to experience what we experienced, I have become an anti-SGI warrior. I fight them tooth and nail, rarely giving an inch, advancing a hundred steps and retreating but one [the saying is advancing three steps and retreating but one]. I am way beyond retreating every third step. I think I am close to never yielding to any argument or assertion that they make. If there is anyone with a similar drive, I suggest that you learn everything about their faith, practice, structure of the organization, finances [difficult] what the Japanese think of them, SGI controversies, the personalities, weaknesses, and strengths of their leaders, their guidance, and their objective history [difficult]. "Quick and appropriate responses to changing situations" [Sun Tzu] is a useful secular strategy. If you can get on SGI Buddhism worldwide internet community [you can look it up], you can get an up to date idea what they are teaching and thinking. You would have to lie that you are still an SGI member and have some one vouch for you that you are a card carrying member. I was on their site for a while, despite never having anyone vouch for me but I got to the point I couldn't put up with the leaders manipulation, shallow un-Buddhist guidance, and their use of thought control towards naive, suggestible, and suffering members. The bottom line was, the benefit of remaining [continuing to learn about them and their current thinking and publishing their perverse teachings, photographs, and discussions] was outweighed by the angst of having to keep silent in the face of their evil organization. Also, it got to the point that I would have been banished anyway for correcting and criticizing their leaders so I voluntarily withdrew. Just a few thoughts.

Nichijew



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 01:28PM by Nichijew.

I, too, have seen a lot of members whose situations don't seem to change for the better, yet they stay in the organization year after year. I knew one lady who was in the organization from at least the 1970's. She lived in government-assisted housing, her disabled husband passed away (and he wasn't even that old), and then, a little while later, she got cancer. I moved away from her about 3 years ago so I don't know how she's doing now but when do the good things start happening for her? Where are all the benefits? At what point does one say, "OK, I don't think this is working"? Some will call it the power of faith but I'm more inclined to call it a mental, physical, and spiritual trap.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 01:50PM by SGBye.

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Shavoy
The proof is in the pudding, Hitch...I feel very strongly about what I had expressed in a previous post. If you will not, cannot, (or both) accept and come to terms with issues you are facing in your life, well...ya get what ya get. Just chanting for hours and hours won't do a heck of a lot. It falls into magical thinking. Everything will be just fine if I chant and do activities!

Tons of chanting and tons of activities create a situation where you don't have to face the painful nitty-gritties. High "life-conditions", too. Therefore, that's why members' lives don't always have a lot to show for "actual proof" with what would be considered on-going Karma--karma that never seems to go away.

Exactly.

I've seen many long time sgi members (including pioneering members) go to their graves (they seem to be getting sicker and passing away more frequently with each passing year) with their same set of problems, some with even worse problems. They spent their whole life practicing, attending activities, doing zaimu, doing toban, being transportation for other divisions (youth), having meetings at their house, doing shakubuku, subscribing to publications, cleaning and maintaining the community centers (while not doing the same for their own homes), cooking, serving and supporting "leaders" who came from out of town (again, while not doing the same for their own families) for some activity, driving 2-3 hours to attend activities or support an outlying area, and on and on and on. In the end, nothing special to show for it. I don't know how they are able to justify it in their own minds when they look back. One big, glorious waste of time, IMO.

I came across this post from back on page #304 in response to another individual, but I would like to comment on it.

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Shavoy
Hello, doubtful. "All the Ikeda worship will not play anywhere but Japan, in any meaningful sort of way. Do they really believe that what the world really needs is to know how special Ikeda is?" I am trying to wrap my head around why people's minds get sucked into deifying somebody and wanting to make their mentor's dream their own...fulfilling their mentor's dream. What about their dreams? I have stated it here before and have had some good feedback about it, but I still cannot completely get why..why SGI feels that mentor/disciple worship is going to go down like gravy in America. They seemed to have loosened that grip back in the 90's, but now, as we all know, it is back with a vengence. How unappealing. The marketing strategy for the US is pretty darn lame, if it wants to widely spread kosen-rufu here. They've really dropped a ball in their mission to overtake the Western Hemisphere. It ain't going to happen.

It was always "Master" and disciple for the majority of my time in the cult. The term "master" never did sit well with me and obviously many others. Then they tried to wrap it up in the more euphemistic "mentor"-disciple package. Why? Because it wasn't playing well to the masses. And it still doesn't, even after the repackaging.

The mandatory pathological association with Ikeda is their fatal flaw in the West. I agree 100%. Ikeda is NEVER going to be accepted to the degree that they want and need him to be. Show Ikeda's photo to any American and their reaction is, he's an Asian guy with a paunch; they are practically laughing at the photo. That's where it stops and they don't take it seriously. It's ironic, because the gakkai in America is very sensitive to the appearance of being an Ikeda "fan club" - yet that's exactly what they are! They go to great extremes to deny it with their mouth, yet all of their actions betray their true intent. It's like an organizational cognitive dissonance and it's fascinating to watch sometimes.