They probably never admit it.

But the men who orchestrate rallies, no matter what the belief system -- when that energy surges toward them - what do you want to be that they get aroused?

If anyone wants to learn yet more, find a way to rent and view a documentary called Trekkies. It came out in the 1990s - a documentary on Star Trek devotees.

Leonard Nimoy was interviewed. He described attending his very first Star Trek convention.

Nimoy told how he was seated alongside George Takei and others on stage and behind a curtain. He expected a modest crowd.

The curtain went up. The auditorium was packed to capacity.

With utter humility and looking a bit pale, Nimoy told the interviewer how he was unprepared and shocked when he felt this surge of adoring groupie energy hit him full force.

Now imagine how addicted rally leaders must get, being able to orchestrate that same mojo.

Speed freaks crave that ecstacy, even though it burns out their bodies and minds.

Trouble is, its difficult to find former rally leaders who can talk about this. Its difficult to find former gurus who can discuss this.

Once one becomes adept at summoning this crowd energy, perhaps one becomes addicted, too.

But...we have to reserve the sadness for those recruited and provide information so its available.

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holly_golightly
I just wanted to ask people, how do you handle seeing friends or other SGI members, etc who are still practicing? Do you try to keep off the subject or do you welcome a discussion about it all to put your side across?

I ask them, "You still in the cult, has Ikeda croaked yet?"

Nichijew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 11:52PM by Nichijew.

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holly_golightly
I just wanted to ask people, how do you handle seeing friends or other SGI members, etc who are still practicing? Do you try to keep off the subject or do you welcome a discussion about it all to put your side across?

I've found that a substantive dialogue isn't possible with them if they can't think critically (and they can't). It's like a little switch gets flipped into the "off" position in their head and they can't go any further. I've encountered this repeatedly. In person, you can see it on their face and on the telephone, you can hear it in their voice. They also try to pathetically redirect the conversation. The very first time I experienced this was with a senior, salaried gakkai leader drone. I literally laughed out loud, they couldn't handle the "dialogue." It was one of the first experiences to open my eyes to the fact that they were not infallible; in fact, it showed me that they were manipulative idiots and full of crap.

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Tibbs
The video Hitch posted brought back a lot of memories. I remember having to plaster on a smile and feign enthusiasm to "encourage" others. I met Danny Nagishima about 8 or 9 years ago. He is looking much older. I'm sure constantly "encouraging" others to be "victorious in overcoming obstacles" takes a toll on his health.

I know it's wrong, but, while I was watching the video, I couldn't help but imagine an SGI drinking game: Watch an SGI video and every time someone says "mentor and disciple" or "President Ikeda" take a drink. We'd be completely hammered in about 2 minutes I think!

Yep, I went thru the same "training." Fake smile & demeanor (toban, soka-han, or if you are girl, byakuren) for all the members, straight back, rigid stance and deep bows (or salutes if you prefer) for the big leaders. At least the workers at Disneyland get paid for the facade and acting.

I'd love to meet Nagashima just to speak to him in an exaggerated same manner as he speaks to the members and see what his reaction would be. Watching that clip of his speech makes me laugh. I think he's a tool, a snake oil salesman without any new lines. I wonder if he is always in "on" mode? If so, I agree, it must be extremely tiring to always have to be fake and "in character." In a way, I feel sorry for this guy. He's just being used the same way Williams was.

The m/d speak was not as heavily pushed when I was in the youth div.. Things have definitely changed and it is incredibly more Ikeda centric now.

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corboy
Persons who have served in the military will tell you that 18 to 22 year olds are the ideal recruits - young enough to feel immortal, full of energy craving outlet, craving mentorship.

Young men in that age bracket, especially. Older soldiers are great, too. But they are more cautious. They have a perspective that the young bucks just do not have.

Society imposes endless restraint on boys and young men. Cool it. Dont fight. Dont get dirty. Be nice. You're too noisy, you're too loud, don't stomp so hard, dont yell, sit still, etc, etc.

Boys and more girls than one realizes, want to LET IT OUT.

Kick ass. Rave.

Fight.

An honorable outlet where you can let that yang energy surge is sweet indeed.

You are right on the money, corboy. The young ones are also more naive and malleable.

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corboy
They probably never admit it.

But the men who orchestrate rallies, no matter what the belief system -- when that energy surges toward them - what do you want to be that they get aroused?

Now imagine how addicted rally leaders must get, being able to orchestrate that same mojo.

Speed freaks crave that ecstacy, even though it burns out their bodies and minds.

Trouble is, its difficult to find former rally leaders who can talk about this. Its difficult to find former gurus who can discuss this.

Once one becomes adept at summoning this crowd energy, perhaps one becomes addicted, too.

Speaking from experience, those culture festival campaigns went far beyond addictive. It was like being completely immersed into a mini-cult world where nobody else existed except fellow roaring lions fighting side by side for Cousin Rufus. On tozan (pilgrimage to Japan), it was 24/7. When it was all over, it could be like an incredible movie ending and walking out of a theatre back into the real world/harsh reality. I saw the effect it had on people and those were the exact same times that everything bad about the organization went into hyperdrive with the manipulation and mind games "on" full force; people in a virtual mental high. Afterwards, as I've mentioned before in another post, a complete mental and physical breakdown when it was all over. I felt the tugs pulling me in, but it was kind of like that "Twilight Zone" episode with the lost little kid [www.youtube.com] ~ 22:45 min. mark, for me. For some reason, I was always able to keep one foot and arm out anchoring me to reality and use it to pull myself back. It's like a fantasy world to some people; one they choose to stay in, because they are more comfortable and it helps them to cope with the real world.

[/quote]Speaking from experience, those culture festival campaigns went far beyond addictive. It was like being completely immersed into a mini-cult world where nobody else existed except fellow roaring lions fighting side by side for Cousin Rufus. On tozan (pilgrimage to Japan), it was 24/7. When it was all over, it could be like an incredible movie ending and walking out of a theatre back into the real world/harsh reality. I saw the effect it had on people and those were the exact same times that everything bad about the organization went into hyperdrive with the manipulation and mind games "on" full force; people in a virtual mental high. Afterwards, as I've mentioned before in another post, a complete mental and physical breakdown when it was all over. I felt the tugs pulling me in, but it was kind of like that "Twilight Zone" episode with the lost little kid [www.youtube.com] ~ 22:45 min. mark, for me. For some reason, I was always able to keep one foot and arm out anchoring me to reality and use it to pull myself back. It's like a fantasy world to some people; one they choose to stay in, because they are more comfortable and it helps them to cope with the real world.[/quote]

Thanks to the lack of sleep and the forced, self or otherwise, as you say "hyperdrive", some people have similar reactions to hallucinogens, amphetamines, or a cocaine binge. It landed me in the psychiatric hospital for a few days after two such "movements" when I was 27 and 28 years old. For me, it was wanting to be in and being unable to extricate myself from such a state which was incompatable with life in the real world...believing I could live off of light and cammomille tea, loss of insight and judgement, believing that I was invincible, and eventually, after the sixth or seventh day, paranoia. They were literally schizoaffective and bipolar reactions. I still suffer the physical effects of the first incident when I jumped ~25-30 feet from an electrical stantion [luckily onto soft grass], landing on my heels, and suffering herniated discs and now arthritis of the lumbar spine. Fortunately I'm a pretty tough and driven individual and I'm still able to put in hundred hour weeks at work when necessary and I've learned to live and thrive despite the pain.

Their retort is that, "I never heard of that happening to anyone else." Fact is, in Australia and elsewhere, they now promote seminars on coping with depression and mental illness and there are many Soka Gakkai members less fortunate than I who are dependent on psychiatric medicines, in no small part, because of the activities and pressures of the cult. To protect themselves and the mentor, in their public guidances, they come out with the Ikeda guidance to get plenty of rest and to use common sense. This is a smokescreen because privately, during the actual activities of the young men's division, everyone is pressured to do more and sleep less.

Nichijew

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holly_golightly
I just wanted to ask people, how do you handle seeing friends or other SGI members, etc who are still practicing? Do you try to keep off the subject or do you welcome a discussion about it all to put your side across?

I still have one good friend still in the cult. We've had discussions in the past. He agrees with me on most SGI issues. But he's been in the SGI for a long time, almost 30 years. His parents also practice and his step-dad has a fairly high leadership position. It would be much harder for him to break away than it was for me. When I see him these days he never brings up the SGI. He knows where I stand. I feel like he values our friendship more than my lack of SGI membership and I'm glad.

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Nichijew
Thanks to the lack of sleep and the forced, self or otherwise, as you say "hyperdrive", some people have similar reactions to hallucinogens, amphetamines, or a cocaine binge. It landed me in the psychiatric hospital for a few days after two such "movements" when I was 27 and 28 years old. For me, it was wanting to be in and being unable to extricate myself from such a state which was incompatable with life in the real world...believing I could live off of light and cammomille tea, loss of insight and judgement, believing that I was invincible, and eventually, after the sixth or seventh day, paranoia. They were literally schizoaffective and bipolar reactions. I still suffer the physical effects of the first incident when I jumped ~25-30 feet from an electrical stantion [luckily onto soft grass], landing on my heels, and suffering herniated discs and now arthritis of the lumbar spine. Fortunately I'm a pretty tough and driven individual and I'm still able to put in hundred hour weeks at work when necessary and I've learned to live and thrive despite the pain.

I've read some of your experience about Trets here on this thread. An amazing story and I've seen members within the throes of those kinds of mental highs during campaigns. It effects all of us differently. Glad you are here to tell the story. You are a survivor in more ways than most of us here.

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Nichijew
Their retort is that, "I never heard of that happening to anyone else." Fact is, in Australia and elsewhere, they now promote seminars on coping with depression and mental illness and there are many Soka Gakkai members less fortunate than I who are dependent on psychiatric medicines, in no small part, because of the activities and pressures of the cult.

Another example of their blissful ignorance. Psychotic breaks happen all the time in cults. While many may not actually reach that critical breaking point, it was common to see fellow members completely jacked up on adrenaline (natural & artificial) with wild bulging crazy eyes and behavior. I can still picture some of these people giving speeches at meetings. At the time, I just thought it was funny. But, looking back, it's obvious that they were riding on some pre-psychotic mental highs. There's nothing unusual about it at all, within that kind of environment. I recall being asked (no, "told") to do some things that I considered unsafe and irresponsible during such times/practices. I stubbornly just flat out refused, because in MY mind, they were crossing a line with me. I'm glad I did too, because I would probably have some of the same physical sequelae that happened to you or even worse (like breaking a neck or something). I can also tell you that not many people said no under such intense circumstances, either. Things like this were little clues for me that some things were completely bonkers within the "organization."

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Nichijew
To protect themselves and the mentor, in their public guidances, they come out with the Ikeda guidance to get plenty of rest and to use common sense. This is a smokescreen because privately, during the actual activities of the young men's division, everyone is pressured to do more and sleep less.

Many things are indeed different "off-the-record" within this cult. If you ever did try to invoke Ikeda's "official" guidance, you'd be treated like sh**, home "v'ed" and manipulated to get with the program and do more (even if the rest of your life and family are falling part, which in the warped mind of the cult is even more reason to practice harder, "double, even triple your efforts"). It's a vicious cycle and it eventually breaks people in different ways. And for those it doesn't break, I can think of a dozen examples of people that I know who are still practicing and have horrible intractable personal problems of the kind that ultimately cannot be squared with their years of practice - except in their own delusional mindsets.

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Tibbs

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tsukimoto

Where is the Buddha in all this busy-ness, and how does putting on this dog and pony show to impress some big zone leader actually leading to world peace?

Yes!! This is how I felt so many times. Usually as I was going off to attend yet another planning meeting to plan the next planning meeting. Dog and pony shows and planning meetings to plan the next dog and pony show.

HAHA! I just had to respond to this.

This was always a running joke as far back as my earliest youth div. days in the organization and it's still true today: going to a planning meeting, for a planning meeting, for a planning meeting. :-))

And the plans for the plans always change, because things never materialize as planned or are postponed several times due to lack of participation/interest, until eventually they are just cancelled completely and you start planning for new plans by having planning meetings for more planning meetings all over again. And every activity is SO important, until it is cancelled, then it isn't so important anymore - until you plan a new one. HAHA!!

If there is one thing about the Soka Gakkai that irked me more than the stupid planning meetings, it was their obsession with claimed "accurate" statistics but which were actually manipulated in a fast and loose manner and their harping on "victory" and "winning". I may have posted this before, if so, please excuse me. It is nearly word for word from an SGI Headquarters and up leaders meeting. my comments in parenthesis ().

Tariq Hassan: We just got back from Japan receiving guidance and meeting Sensei. Though it was a hard time with the loss of the LDP and Komeito, Sensei was in high spirits. He gave us tremendous guidance, “When you lose you actually win!”. So very important, the unity of mentor and disciple as we walk along side our mentor. Sensei said to his Japanese leaders, “please learn from America the spirit of oneness of mentor and disciple”. We met Hiromasa Ikeda and Vice President Hasagawa who said: “facing times of change, how much greater the mission of America. With ever deeper faith in the oneness of mentor and disciple we will protect sensei.” Again, as disciples of President Ikeda let us joyfully advance. We make the mentor proud when we unite wholeheartedly with him. With the Mentor we will always win (does that mean lose? HA HA). Sensei’s guidance was on the importance of statistics and statistics department. I am the head of the statistics department though I didn’t volunteer for this job (joke). There will be monthly statistics meetings for the districts. New form to remove someone from the SGI statistics roll. I will be happy to assist the SGI in doing statistics. In Japan, it takes six months before someone is removed from statistical rolls, signature of district and chapter chief required.

Linda Johnson: Chant to live up to the mentor. Learn from President Ikeda. He gets this Buddhism. He has never lost (then he has never won?? HA HA sorry to interrupt). Linda J. continues, To manifest your capacity…vital to study Sensei. Send out only Sensei’s encouragment on the internet not your own. Lets learn from the best. Home visit every member. It is the time to teach them about Sensei and how to win (which is really losing???). “Bless her” (Kitty Shapiro who helped her when she was a new member) "hallelujah" [yes, she said hallelujah]. Chant to let me win. (shouldn’t she have said, chant to let me lose which is actually to win?). Then she spoke about the attitude one should have when we chant. Maybe she mentioned the Gohonzon one or two times. Determine that your members will win today. Challenge ourselves to care about the members winning. Never leave a home visit without impressing on that person the oneness of mentor of disciple. This is the eternal formula we must get and teach. To insure through our care that every single member always tap unlimited potential and win we must practice with the spirit of mentor and disciple. Change our lives, the lives of our family, and this country.

Next, young mens’s division leader Nathan Gauer: Who will uphold Sensei’s legacy? 50th anniversary of his visit to America in July. Culture festivals. Sensei determined to spend the remaining part of his life in America, the country he loves best. Culture Festival for Sensei. REALLY REALLY GREAT (he must be spending too much time with Danny Nagashima) Real short speech.

Vanissa Shaw national YWD leader, Crest toothpaste girl, actress and Ikeda disciple extroadinaire: ARE YOU READY TO ROCK THE ERA. ROCK THE ERA MEETINGS AND FESTIVALS IN JULY. AMERICA CAPITAL OF MENTOR AND DISCIPLE. “Entire focus, the mentor”. (duh). As Sensei has said always sing a gakkai song during our Rock The Era meetings. Sensei we will create the capital of mentor disciple.

Keith Beeber student division leader: National direction… shakabuku on college campuses. Since July, 15 universities 200 guests and 35 shakabuku. Carry on the spirit of the oneness of mentor and disciple based on the mentors guidance form student groups. Bring joy to Sensei by warmly embracing our leaders.

Nagashima (shouting as usual): HELLO EVERYONE ARE YOU HAPPY? THANK YOU THANK YOU VERY MUCH. We did 1984 shakabuku in the month of august, the most in twenty years. We have been waiting for this moment for twenty years. (somewhat surprisingly, muted cheering and clapping). The time has come. We have to create AMERICA WITH YOUTH DIVISION. I’M THIRTY YEARS OLD. EVERYONE IS YOUTH DIVISION. AS LONG AS WE SEEK SENSEI WE CAN REMAIN YOUNG. THE KEY TO VICTORY IS STATISTICS. 70 % increase in membership (I have a bridge to sell you). As a disciple of Daisaku Ikeda,the oneness of mentor and disciple IS THE KEY. We will make exhibits of mentor and disciple. Fifty years since Sensie’s first visit to United States. We are experiencing in America, the great character of Daisaku Ikeda, we are fusing with him. Something genuine is the oneness of mentor and disciple. What is the Genuine meaning of oneness of mentor and disciple? SEEKING SENSEI (Im getting a freaking migraine). Genuine disciple of sensei is never defeated. Ever victorious. Always winning. KANSAI NEVER LOST SINCE 1957. With your bond with sensei you will be ever victorius, EVER VICTORIOS WITH SENSEI (flailing his arms and coming back to his chest), with sensei. SCREAMING AGAIN. YOU BODHISATTVAS TO CREATE EVER VICTORIOUS AMERICA. HOW MUCH CAN WE CREATE THIS KANSAI. KANSAI NEVER LOST SINCE 1957. Orlando Cepeda joke and then 7 points of victory for Kansai. Oneness of mentor and disciple, repeating it again several times. SHOUTING AGAIN: READING GOSHO AND SENSEI’S GUIDANCE; UNITY; FIGHT AGAINST INJUSTICE; LIGHTENING SPEED IN COMMUNICATIONS AND GUIDANCE; ACTION ACTION ACTION; ALWAYS WIN (which means lose?); Last one I didn’t get(BECOME A LION?) BASED ON ONENESS OF MENTOR AND DISCIPLE.

Comment: Platitudes upon platitudes.

6 mentions of Nichiren Daishonin. >100 mentions of Ikeda. No mention of Shakyamuni. One or, at most, two mentions of the Gohonzon. No mention of the Lotus Sutra.

Are they winning? That must mean losing HA HA.

Protect Sensei? The guy’s already got dozens of body guards who will take a bullet for his old self but they want you to protect him all the way from New Jersey. The cult speaks and sometimes SCREAMS!

Nichijew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 12:16PM by Nichijew.

SGI-USA is WINNING! [www.youtube.com] (They should hire him as a spokesman.)

It's all how you "perceive" things, that is the key to "winning." It has always been a numbers game with sgi-usa. Elaborate nonsense planning meetings with elaborate padding of the numbers. I'm not sure, but I think this kind of thing may have also played a role in Williams' downfall. I believe he was "winning" when he was actually losing, as well.

Found some more posts that I'd like to comment on:

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TheVoid

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Shavoy
He has the charisma for many who need and want a father figure, .

I never understood this, how does he have charisma, no one sees or get to talk to him, to me his charisma is a phantom. It is made up by the org, by people that have never met him, by the leaders who recieve letters from Sensei which make them cry and realise how wonderful he really is. It's all fakery and lies. At the bigger meetings i attended there was always a leader who had written to Ikeda and got some kind of generic reply that usually just said 'STAND UP' and from this the leaders gushed about how amazing sensei was, it made me bloody sick. What nonsense!

I've seen PI in person a few times. To be honest, I never felt much charisma from the guy. He just seemed like an ordinary, short, pudgy Japanese guy to me. If I had to compare two people, I'd say that Williams had more charisma that PI. Maybe that was part of his problem and downfall, too.

*********

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DrJesusEsq
I have been lurking the past couple of pages and would like to give my 2 cents.

They way the SGI works is dependancy, especially on the chanting. If you have a problem and things don't work out for you, best you spend your time. Don't plan, don't take a look at any options in solving your problems, just chant. Many leaders do like to say that one should take the correct action, but that is often an ambigous term. In fact, I have known a few leaders and fortune children who have acted in an inconsiderate manner towards me. When I called them out on it, they usually say, "I'm sorry. I will chant more next time." These people who have been chanting for years somehow find human decency a very esoteric subject and cannot change themselves without chanting first.

Thinking about my time in the SGI and even reading the experiences on the board, it seems that there is systematic abuse. Many of the leaders I have personally met were very verbally abusive. It is their way of keeping the masses in order, just in case you started thinking on your own. Nagashima once called me stupid to my face. Furthermore, and going back to the first point, if you do have a problem with the leaders (and you are a peon), it is because you are not chanting hard enough or you have fundamental or some other reason why you are not good enough. In the end, the peons of SGI are given more responsibility in their actions than the leaders.

Thoughts anyone?

Re: the bolded portions -

I have never met one single salaried gakkai leader in America who wasn't what I would consider arrogant, in some way. Some more so than others, of course. (There were plenty of other non-salaried ones too, but that's another story.) With some, I know for a fact that it is insecurity based. With others, I suspect it is because they have lived most of their life dispensing orders and guidance to others that they genuinely believe that they have all the right answers, for everyone and all situations. It doesn't make any difference if they have no background information about either you or the subject matter, they still have no problem telling you the simple solution - which is always a generic variation on the same theme: "chant more, practice harder, chant more, do your own human revolution, chant more, do "x", chant more, do "y", chant more, do "z", and chant more; put your practice first and everything else will magically fall into place."

I grew up in the practice, so early on I had no problem, because I didn't think for myself. Once you start thinking for yourself, and questioning, that's when the problems start. If you don't tow the line, the verbal (and mental, if you are susceptible to it based on fear) abuse becomes more commonplace. It was pervasive, I saw it everywhere and its malignant nature seemed to grow in direct proportion to how close you got to the organizational epicenter in Santa Monica. So, yes, I'd say the abuse was systematic and starts from the top down.

You know, it's funny that Nagashima used the word stupid towards a member. Karma is what goes around comes around . . . . . That's the exact same thought that came to my mind about HIM when I saw his speech on YouTube (see clip above). In that clip, everything he says right down to HOW he even says it, IMO is a joke. Sgi-usa in my mind, doesn't get any more cliched than that clip of Nagashima talking: superficial, transparent, manipulative, authoritative, pretentious and vacuous. And on top of all of that, the man isn't even ORIGINAL.