@Findingmywaytoday You wrote, "I told some people in SGI about counseling, and they said my counseling would go better if I would chant in addition to my counseling. I just laugh, and say: whatever." I agree that chanting can make anything, including counseling better. However, SGI does not end with chanting. It inevitably starts promising miracles, especially if you make Ikeda your mentor. For some of us with psychological or personal issues, I believe that the magical thinking/reward-punishment mentality promoted by SGI (and other religions) can be detrimental to inner peace. Some of us simply do not respond well to an exclusive "our way or the highway" approach to religion or personal growth. Some of us have a hard time just letting others rattle on about what is the right or wrong way to use our practice or view our problems without letting it get to us.

You also wrote, "I want to take my butsudan down, and my Gohonzon. Who has done this? Can you please give me tips on how to do this respectfully? Where do you store it? Not sure if I want to give it back or not." You may want to give back your Gohonzon, but I do want to know something. Have you actually practiced without SGI? I don't mean just away from the members. I mean without the SGI's ideas about Buddhism. These include mentor-disciple, RTE, fear of retribution, and materialism. This is what I have been doing for months now and I am loving it. I have come to embrace God, Shakyamuni, Nichiren, Jesus, the life of the universe, and anything and anyone that moves my spirit forward. Gone is the ignorance and the exclusivity I used to value way too highly. MY religious practice exists to make my life better from the inside out, not to tell other people what they should and should not believe or whom they should view as special.

You also wrote, "I was thinking that my life turned very sour after getting my Gohonzon. One month after getting Gohonzon, I moved to a neighborhood that is dangerous, dirty, and has made me feel miserable. I have tried my best to live here and survive, but it has seriously made my life worse. I don't mean to sound like a cry baby, but I feel like a neighborhood can make a difference in how you feel." As a member for over 20 years, I occasionally witnessed things like this. Sometimes someone would join and bad stuff would start happening. Most others, on the other hand, tended to experience lots of positive things internally and externally almost immediately. I will not resort to that tired explanation about getting dirty water and debris out of a hose that has sat outside during the winter. How the hell does anyone KNOW why bad stuff happens to some while good stuff happens to others when they begin practicing? Perhaps this practice does not work for everyone. Perhaps it does not work well on all problems. Perhaps this practice is not the right one for you. That's my explanation, but it is just mine. I don't know for sure. Therapy will help you, but therapy alone may not deal with any spiritual needs you have. Is it possible for you to create a practice to the Gohonzon that suits your needs? If not, perhaps you should shop around. If you return it to SGI, you can always download another one if you want to avoid being connected to another organization.

Finally, you wrote, "Perhaps someone might argue that this would be my karma without Gohonzon, but I have to tell you that my life was better before Gohonzon." You reveal here that you are prone to magical thinking or reward/punishment mentality. That is bound to wreck your serenity, your inner peace and this mentality can be dissolved. I have been experiencing that proof for months. When things go wrong I no longer think that it is a result of my leaving SGI or criticizing the organization or Ikeda. I accept that everyone experiences setbacks and disappointments. No SGI members I ever met were living without the same problems as everyone outside SGI: unemployment, family discord, health problems, financial problems, relationship problems, depression, etc. Your life without SGI or even without Buddhism shall continue to experience the same problems. See, I don't believe that a religious practice is supposed to produce things other than peace of mind, wisdom, self-confidence, and hope. I believe you can have these things, regardless of your circumstances.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 05:25AM by doubtful.

Hi Doubtful, Thanks for responding. If I take down my Butsudan, I wouldn't want to to download any Gohonzon. I don't believe in it, or want any memory of it if I take it down. The only reason I am not taking it down is because I am superstitious, always have been. I am not proud of that fact, but I believe it is my superstitious nature that lead me towards being in the SGI in the first place.

Speaking of which, if I have magical thinking, I see nothing wrong with it. So be it, so be it if I am prone to it. SGI, chanting, and anything connected with either of them is not going to make it worse or better. I don't think it is the end of the world if I am a magical thinker. I think anyone who wants to chant to a piece of paper is also prone to magical thinking.

I do believe for sure, I was a lot happier before SGI. Yes, I had my moments of glee after an activity and a lot of energy was generated because I participated in a dance and so forth.

Regardless of what karma I had before SGI, with SGI, or after SGI, it is what it is. I am just so tired of the guilt and being told that I am not standing up for my life even when I was tired and couldn't make it to an activity. I am tired of being told what to do from people in the SGI. Being told not to come across as insecure if I give an experience or MC a meeting because we have guests and we wouldn't want them to have the wrong impression.

What I had before the SGI besides my karma, was peace of mind, and less anxiety. This is what I am craving. I know I can have it again. When I chanted, I always waited for the other foot to drop. I worried about car accidents, and the boogie man who was going to get me metaphorically speaking. I constantly worried because I felt like prey to my karma. I felt paranoid, when I don't chant I feel peace of mind.

I almost feel like your response to me was a plea to consider staying in the SGI. I say **** the SGI. I am sorry, but I am pissed off with that organization, and with some of the people in that organization.

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Rothaus
@ Findingmywaytoday

First of al congrats on what you have achieved so far. I think it would be most interesting, especially to those who just follow the conversation, to learn if your counselling also touched on the subject of you being in a cult. It would be interesting to hear what professionals have to say on that.

In terms of your Butsudan. I still have mine set up as I do chant but rolled up the script role. The bottom line is to do whatever you do with respect. I think you are closing a chapter of your life that you came out of on top actually. And if you feel ready just bring the Gohonzon back to where you got it from – for this I would wait though until you feel 100% ready to face up to the talking you out of leaving by SGI that's bound to take place. As SGI gives no guideline doing those things (would be a bit strange if they did) its entirely up to you on how to proceed. At least that's how I look at it.

Thanks so much Rothaus. I feel validated by what you wrote here for the most part! I agree it would be strange if they offered advice on how to return your Gohonzon.

I want to mention that once I told a coleader that SGI is a cult, and she was very mad at me. She said how could you say this? How could you say this? I think it is one thing to be in cult voluntarily and enjoy it, and be okay with it, but still know you are in a cult, and then there are those who so fervently deny they are in a cult. I would rather be the first person than the second one I described.

I feel so free. One of the other reasons I am leaving the SGI is because I see that what I really needed was therapy. I need to be around and engaged in things that validate me, and also help me love myself truly and deeply. That is what true spirituality is about. I don't need to belong to any organization, or church. I am fine alone, or in the company of those that validate and encourage self love in myself. Anyone with other motives, I don't need to be with them.

If I came to the SGI looking for this, then I was wrong to do so. I can't learn self love from an organization that is so aggressive and manipulative.

I didn't and don't get along with the people in my District. It isn't because I am so impossible. It made it hard to want to go to meetings. As I mentioned before, there was a time I was asked to MC, and I was told to not appear insecure even before I did it only because we had guests. I then declined to be apart of the meeting. I had better things to do.

I start to look at something like this as teaching people to stay in relationships that don't work or are even abusive for the sake of world peace. I had friends in other nearby districts, but I wasn't allowed to change districts. I felt like I didn't have a choice but to be with people who I didn't like, or who weren't very supportive of me. This is what world peace is supposed to look like? I think not.

My personal opinion is that if a relationship is not working out, why make yourself suffer? Maybe there are some dye hards on the board who would say I am taking the easy way out. Maybe so, but then let it be. Maybe I still need to learn some maturity on that, and if I do, then I am sure it will happen eventually before I die whether it is done easily or in a rougher manner, I am sure I will learn it. This includes also magical thinking. Maybe I need to get rid of magical thinking, but it obviously is serving me in some manner. I will change when I learn the lesson, and I know I will still learn life lessons without the Gohonzon in their proper order.

I will end this reply with a example of beautiful support from my sponsor. I was supposed to give my first experience at a meeting 4 years ago. I was excited, wrote it out, and practiced it. The eve of the meeting, I became really discouraged. My sponsor told me that this was Sansho Shima. I told her that I didn't want to do it. She still encouraged me to come to the meeting. Then I thought, if I am coming to the meeting, you better believe I am giving my experience. She then told me to give the most imperfect experience I could give. I felt like I could do that. It was what I needed to hear in that moment as strange as it sounds. Because it made me feel like I am allowed to make mistakes. I didn't make one mistake in giving that experience. It made me feel motivated and relaxed.

I still think my sponsor is a beautiful person, if only a little brainwashed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2010 10:43AM by Findingmywaytoday.

Hi,
I tried to post yestday and felt really clear on my message. The post was deleted - I guess I didn't do it right. I will find out if I do it right this time if it gets posted so I will be brief.
I have been a member of SGI-USA for 26 years and not embarrassed to say that. I chose the experience - they did not control me. Many years were very happy, lots of 'golden' memories as they used to say. But I am not someone that needs to have a 'oneness of mentor disciple' which is not a concept from Nichiren Daishonin at all. It is an SGI invention. I am an independent person by nature and enjoy the personal practice. I have always been consistent and can count on one hand the times I didn't do my morning & evening prayers; usually due to illness. For this effort, I feel happy to be alive, free, and always moving forward. I am in touch with my higher self, buddhahood, source energy or whatever you want to call it, and this energy speaks loudly to me that SGI is going down the wrong path. In my area they even replaced all the leaders with a younger set and seemed to focus on individuals that are born to follow and not question anything. For this reason I can understand why the word 'cult' is now associated with this organization. They no longer really care about the members happiness; it is more about building up the legacy of President Ikeda. I will remain grateful to those that helped me begin my practice. But I truly hope more people can wake up to this deviation from the true practice.

@ Chanter16

Hi there, well to be honest and in retrospect I believe that the cultish patterns of behaviour have been present also in the 'golden days' even long before the split. Its only since I have left that incidents come to my mind when I thought at time 'hang on this ain't right, or is it?'
Today I can more clearly say 'No, it ain't right full stop'.
For me the hardest part was to admit 'yes, you were in a cult'. This feeling is a kind of personal defeat in way that I at a time got lured into something that I would normally be highly sceptical of even though I was a teen at the time. One most not forget – and its very sad indeed to say that – that many many members just do not have a life apart from being in SGI. Come on we were reading the daily guidance by Ikeda before chanting and it took years for SGI to 'officially' translate the Lotus Sutra. If this at all was a Buddhist, even Nichiren Buddhist Group, would it not have made more sense to read quotes from the Lotus Sutra or Gosho?

Most of my practice has included studying the gosho but it really would depend on the content of the meetings and who planned it. Some people are intimidated by the study of Buddhism as it fairly complex. I am happy to have a district leader very well versed in the gosho and each meeting contains study of this; never just books by Ikeda.

I do look back on some of the activities and say "I can't believe I did this" but a lot of that is the difference between 'youth' and 'all grown up'. I can recall many, many experiences years back where we were doing very creative, individual things with the meetings. For example, we had the annual Women's Division activity (oops I gave away a little personal information) and we had many non-Buddhist elements in our meetings. We would start with gongyo and chanting and then members and guests would visit the different displays and take part in a dialogue: one on collauges to help with visualization, one on yoga, one on nutrition, etc. People were so interested in this different Buddhist group that they spent their day with, and maybe they decided to try the practice, but no pressure. It made women feel good about being women. This type of activity no longer happens. Now the annual WD meeting is always the very same. Here is your theme, have a district level meetiing, visit lots of members but don't have an original thought. And it's not for the women but the women must sponser the regular district meeting for the whole group.

Anyway, here's to not dwelling on the past! I don't need to categorize myself or my experience in the SGI and question if I was in a cult, and now what do I do? I'd better get help. That is looking outside for the answers which is counter to Buddhism. There is always a positive and negative potential to everything in life. And it is so true that the condition of our inner life is what draws the good or bad things to us. The personal practice continues to help me draw the positive in and that is why I do not have much contact with the organization at this point. My life is unable to fuse with something so negative. For members, includiing leaders, that have never done much with the personal practice or regularly skip chanting and are consumed with the meetings, meetings and more meetings, probably have not elevated their life enough to notice the nonsense of it all.

@Findingmyway, You wrote, "Speaking of which, if I have magical thinking, I see nothing wrong with it. So be it, so be it if I am prone to it. SGI, chanting, and anything connected with either of them is not going to make it worse or better. I don't think it is the end of the world if I am a magical thinker. I think anyone who wants to chant to a piece of paper is also prone to magical thinking." I am sorry if this came across as a criticism. It definitely was not. I agree that the whole experience of chanting to a piece of paper can have magical thinking elements if you(not you personally) are trying to make things happen by chanting to that piece of paper. I don't lump trying to generate wisdom, serenity, faith, or confidence into the same category as trying to get jobs, cars, partners, raises--the kinds of things SGI encourages.

You also wrote, "I do believe for sure, I was a lot happier before SGI. Yes, I had my moments of glee after an activity and a lot of energy was generated because I participated in a dance and so forth." Then you were. See, I was not.

You wrote, "Regardless of what karma I had before SGI, with SGI, or after SGI, it is what it is. I am just so tired of the guilt and being told that I am not standing up for my life even when I was tired and couldn't make it to an activity. I am tired of being told what to do from people in the SGI. Being told not to come across as insecure if I give an experience or MC a meeting because we have guests and we wouldn't want them to have the wrong impression." I agree. This is the unpleasant side of SGI because so many members/leaders (possibly most) think they KNOW what somebody should or should not do. In their defense, I have to say some of them are doing as much as they can to believe that the practice works equally well for everyone on everything. That is false and I think all members/leaders suspect this deep down but would not dare to say it.

You also wrote, "What I had before the SGI besides my karma, was peace of mind, and less anxiety. This is what I am craving. I know I can have it again. When I chanted, I always waited for the other foot to drop. I worried about car accidents, and the boogie man who was going to get me metaphorically speaking. I constantly worried because I felt like prey to my karma. I felt paranoid, when I don't chant I feel peace of mind. I almost feel like your response to me was a plea to consider staying in the SGI. I say **** the SGI. I am sorry, but I am pissed off with that organization, and with some of the people in that organization." Again, I apologize if I in any way suggested you stick with the organization. That would be hypocritical of me given that I have left. All I did was suggest that you create your own practice to the Gohonzon without any of SGI's ideas. It sounds like that is not possible because the actual practice has been a large part of the problem for you. By all means then you should give the Gohonzon back or take it down at least. Perhaps you need to avoid religious practice altogether. Some of the happiest, most successful people I know do not practice anything besides acceptance, love, and tolerance. Sometimes I wish I could be one of them, but I have different needs than them. So please do not take anything I have said as an attack or a criticism. I want to be through with that kind of thinking or behavior. I feel life is too short to waste on activities or practices that make me anxious, fearful, or unhappy; or on ones that encourage me to control the behavior and thoughts of others. Finally, I agree your sponsor had a great advice for giving the experience. I wish I had had that sort of mentality a long time ago.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2010 03:29AM by doubtful.

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doubtful
@Findingmyway, You wrote, "Speaking of which, if I have magical thinking, I see nothing wrong with it. So be it, so be it if I am prone to it. SGI, chanting, and anything connected with either of them is not going to make it worse or better. I don't think it is the end of the world if I am a magical thinker. I think anyone who wants to chant to a piece of paper is also prone to magical thinking." I am sorry if this came across as a criticism. It definitely was not. I agree that the whole experience of chanting to a piece of paper can have magical thinking elements if you(not you personally) are trying to make things happen by chanting to that piece of paper. I don't lump trying to generate wisdom, serenity, faith, or confidence into the same category as trying to get jobs, cars, partners, raises--the kinds of things SGI encourages.

You also wrote, "I do believe for sure, I was a lot happier before SGI. Yes, I had my moments of glee after an activity and a lot of energy was generated because I participated in a dance and so forth." Then you were. See, I was not.

You wrote, "Regardless of what karma I had before SGI, with SGI, or after SGI, it is what it is. I am just so tired of the guilt and being told that I am not standing up for my life even when I was tired and couldn't make it to an activity. I am tired of being told what to do from people in the SGI. Being told not to come across as insecure if I give an experience or MC a meeting because we have guests and we wouldn't want them to have the wrong impression." I agree. This is the unpleasant side of SGI because so many members/leaders (possibly most) think they KNOW what somebody should or should not do. In their defense, I have to say some of them are doing as much as they can to believe that the practice works equally well for everyone on everything. That is false and I think all members/leaders suspect this deep down but would not dare to say it.

You also wrote, "What I had before the SGI besides my karma, was peace of mind, and less anxiety. This is what I am craving. I know I can have it again. When I chanted, I always waited for the other foot to drop. I worried about car accidents, and the boogie man who was going to get me metaphorically speaking. I constantly worried because I felt like prey to my karma. I felt paranoid, when I don't chant I feel peace of mind. I almost feel like your response to me was a plea to consider staying in the SGI. I say **** the SGI. I am sorry, but I am pissed off with that organization, and with some of the people in that organization." Again, I apologize if I in any way suggested you stick with the organization. That would be hypocritical of me given that I have left. All I did was suggest that you create your own practice to the Gohonzon without any of SGI's ideas. It sounds like that is not possible because the actual practice has been a large part of the problem for you. By all means then you should give the Gohonzon back or take it down at least. Perhaps you need to avoid religious practice altogether. Some of the happiest, most successful people I know do not practice anything besides acceptance, love, and tolerance. Sometimes I wish I could be one of them, but I have different needs than them. So please do not take anything I have said as an attack or a criticism. I want to be through with that kind of thinking or behavior. I feel life is too short to waste on activities or practices that make me anxious, fearful, or unhappy; or on ones that encourage me to control the behavior and thoughts of others. Finally, I agree your sponsor had a great advice for giving the experience. I wish I had had that sort of mentality a long time ago.

Thank you so much Doubtful! Your encouragement is helpful to me. I didn't want to make it sound like I am attacking you either. My departure from the SGI is so new to me. I definitely have some anger about the SGI, so I am sorry if I seemed venomous towards anyone at all!

Hello - Finding my Way today. I read some of your writings. That relationship with your sponsor is special. It sounds like she is a true friend. Many in the SGI now are not focused on the right things; it's back to the old style of desperately increasing the membership and there are often casualties to this type of 'membership drive'. I'm sorry if you were not treated right.

I also want to point out that people often expect other Buddhists we meet in the organization to be so perfect, and they are not. And we don't all get along that's for sure. We often feel nothing in common with other members. But we sit down and chant together despite those differences and pray to improve ourselves, chant for a friend to overcome their problem, or chant for world peace. We create unity through the daimoku despite the great diversity amongst us. And that example is what shows us World Peace is possible. It sounds like the district you were in was an opportunity for you to stick up for yourself. 'You' decide if you want to be emcee despite what pressure appears to be there. 'You' decide if you want to visit other districts despite what opposition appears to be there. And in embracing this opportunity, 'you' become stronger and then that negative force, contrast or whatever you want to call it, is turned into something positive.
I don't know if you don't like to chant, or just don't like the people involved, but you can do it on your own, if it feels good. If not, just set it aside for now and there might be a time in the future. But you will likely, again, find yourself in situations that are opportunities to strengthen and believe in yourself. The chanting can keep you on a positive course, that is my experience for many years. There have been so many instances of turning difficult negative, even hopeless situations into something great, even greater than I chanted for.
Good luck in your quest to become strong and feel inner peace and happiness.