I had some complex problems to figure out today. I was able to vent calmly with a friend, I did phone calls and emails back and forth with others, but did NOT chant Daimoku as part of the process to either ease the tension or 'make things happen' (magically?). I have the satisfaction of putting in my memory banks the results of things working out because of my actions - not gratitude for a practice, an organization, or a mentor. For me this is important in my attempts at a normal adult life and not a function of a selfish ego. In the past, I have had members unable to talk with me on the phone because they had not chanted yet that evening. I don't think the experience of a spiritual practice should be like having enough coke up the nose to be ready for the scene at the discoteque. Which leads me to this: My observations of NSA/SGI members in the real world does not leave me with good impressions. For example: Getting a bite to eat with some WD before discussing member care, these women were dismissive of the friendly outgoing woman working the counter. Without getting into detail, I wanted to apologize for their cold or non interactive behaviour with her. Well, she's not a member, so who cares, might've been the reason? Just like Nelson Mandela, if only he chanted he would be doing so much better. Back in the NSA days I remember young people asking about successful people who don't chant as if it didn't compute that they could have a high life condition without chanting.
To be fair, I do remember Ian McIlraith (big leader) expressing gratitude to the workers at an urban bagel shop and being impressed that he would do this when I'm sure they didn't receive such focused attention like that very often. Wait a minute, before I get dewy eyed. I have to remember "Kindness Happens." And sometimes it is good public relations.

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Chanter16
Thank you Morgaine, it was nice to read your reply. I don't know quite how to respond to those that just want to get on here and criticize each other. I would rather we encourage each other. No one is ever going to believe the same way, the same things anyway. I began to chant back in the 80's - was inspired by a co-worker turned sponsor that was just so fun to be around. The chanting brought such relief to so many years of anxiety. So if anyone is turned off by the SGi (as I currently am too) I hope they will give chanting a fair chance. I, too, though, am in a transition time and didn't expect to be where I am now, but I am feeling a lot better about having this distance from the SGI. It really does help to read other's experiences. I am glad, however, that I don't live daily with the intense anger that some seem unable to let go of. Life is too short . . . .and when you know what suffering is all about, and have found a good amount of happiness, you usually wish good things for others too . . . at least I do.

I hope you weren't referring to me in regards to the intense anger. I am not trying to be intensely angry, but like my login name says: I am Findingmywaytoday. My biggest fear is finding my way back into the SGI. I just don't want to be lost, but if I find my way back into the SGI, I hope it will only be for a short visit. Sometimes I feel anger as a way to protect myself from meandering back into the SGI organization.

For several years, SGI was my main source sadly of my social life, and not so sadly as some support. I have sensed recently as many of you here, that the tone and message of the SGI is changing (the constant push of mentor/disciple, etc). I didn't like that pressure, and how many SGI people were acting in regards to it. It was all at once like I woke up out of a bad dream, and recognized I had a choice.

I realized there were other ways to work on my karma without being in the SGI. I recognize I have faults and so forth just as we all do. The SGI wanted me to believe that the reason there is the organization is do to our human revolution and you can't do your human revolution without them. I like the idea of a human revolution, but I no longer want to use that vocabulary, and I no longer want to believe that the only way I can do it is by being a member of their organization.

Right now, I am hesitant to chant again because it reminds me too much of being in the SGI. Maybe at some point, I will revisit chanting, but it seems hard to do without thinking about SGI literature.

Earlier this year, I had a disagreement with another member. I was invited to another members house for some kind of SGI mediation. After that incident, I thought I might have to chant harder or do more activities. I even expressed that to the members there. I thought I had no other choice, but as if someone figuratively snapped their fingers...I felt that I suddenly woke up and realized that there are so many other ways to help oneself become a healhier individual emotionally and mentally. There is the option of seeking professional help, which is what I opted for. I am in therapy. I am really pleased and will continue as long as possible.

I am also realizing how wonderful it is to reconnect with old friends, and make new friends who have nothing to do with SGI. I feel like I am waking up in many instances which has some irony because I was also guided to chant to wake up my life and to realize I am the Buddha. I do still love that, but I am not in love with the SGI package it is wrapped up in.

Anyhow, that's all for now. I am just writing to make sense of some of the choices I made the past four years that I have been in the SGI. I remember being told it is no big deal to get a Gohonzon. I wish I never did, but on the other hard, even if I don't want to believe I was in a cult, I do know I have grown as a person because of it and I am still growing now that I feel I want to be officially out.

Btw, how does one know that one is officially out of the SGI? How do you know it?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2010 03:54AM by Findingmywaytoday.

@FMWT If you want to be officially off of SGI's membership lists the only effective way is to return the Gohonzon. If it makes you uncomfortable to return it in person you can give it to someone in the organization (one who will not give you a hard time or try to talk you out of it) and have him/her drop it off at the center. The reason I say this is because I know that as long as you have the Gohonzon SGI will continue to count you and will even try to contact you when new leaders come into a district or when there is a big event coming up. Okay, I know I may catch some heat for this but I cannot bring myself to mail it to the center or leave it at the door so I don't encourage others to do so. One ex-member started to throw his in the trash when I volunteered to take it in for him. He remained adamant about the the trash bin, so I intercepted it. I guess I have not dissolved all my superstitious thinking. I hope you continue to use this forum as a way to raise your concerns, dissolve destructive patterns, or learn about Buddhism or other things that might be useful. This website has helped me so much. As I read all of my posts starting from May, I can see how different aspects of my fears, beliefs, misconceptions, and issues have surfaced and many have gotten resolved. Others will take longer and that's okay. I practiced with the organization for over 20 years, as a leader for over 6 years. It's natural that it should take some time for me to let it go completely.

@rattyboy You wrote, " I don't think the experience of a spiritual practice should be like having enough coke up the nose to be ready for the scene at the discoteque. Which leads me to this: My observations of NSA/SGI members in the real world does not leave me with good impressions." Okay guy I have to have some fun with you now. You have used this cocaine analogy a couple of times now on this forum. Hm? Hm? I find it hysterical. Surely you must have a "friend" or "acquaintance" who has done blow before going to a disco. On a more serious note, I am still hesitant to let go of my practice altogether. I am one of those who cannot function without my diet of gongyo and an hour of daimoku before I leave the house in the morning, unlike you who, "did NOT chant Daimoku as part of the process to either ease the tension or 'make things happen' (magically?). I have the satisfaction of putting in my memory banks the results of things working out because of my actions - not gratitude for a practice, an organization, or a mentor." Sometimes I think I would like to let go of caffeine in the morning AND the prayer ritual. Sometimes I think that sort of routine guarantees that I will always credit my practice for my the good stuff that happens and my ability to handle the not-so-good stuff that happens. However, there was a time in my life when I lived without the prayer routine and my life was qualitatively worse. I am not talking about a short trial period either. I have enough years on both sides of the routine to suggest that for me the routine is better. Nevertheless, I do long to be like those who can sleep in, run to work, gracefully handle the up's and down's of life, and live in harmony with neighbors, friends, and family. Ah, maybe one day.

@chanter16

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Thank you Morgaine, it was nice to read your reply. I don't know quite how to respond to those that just want to get on here and criticize each other. (snip)

Hmm, interesting point of view. Please note that I have only seen very occasional criticisms on the board of "each other" but I have certainly seen some excellent critical thinking about SGI, it's past and present leaders and what it has meant to others who have been members of the Cult and have left it behind.

When a person is submerged in a cult, and fully conditioned by cult thinking, anything that doesn't have the "cult good housekeeping seal of approval" on it represents a threat. I can guarantee that there is a lot of non-cult thought going on here!

For sure there are many people on this board who at this point in time have absolutely no interest in chanting, nor do they want to be chastised for not chanting either. Someone direct from the "Chapter Guidance Meeting" mind set would have essentially one guidance and one only (er, maybe two) "Chant a lot and don't forget your zaimu". Can you think of any other guidances that essentially cannot be summed up the same way? "Follow our glorious master Ikea and his golden words will definitely lead you to your human revolution". What are those golden words? Chant, unity, zaimu? Chant to what? Unity with what? Zaimu for who?

Now for a show of hands - all those who have definately achieved buddha-hood and Ningen Kakumei please stand up!

Hmm, doesn't look like a lot of those people around.

Now, according to Josei Toda, the true buddha has no suffering in his life, and no problems beset him. Wherever he goes the Buddhist Gods clear a path for him. Only absolute truth comes from his mouth. Every life he touches spontaneously erupts with enlightenment like springtime flowers blooming at once. In the dark he glows and radiates colors through the entire spectrum.

I don't see any of those things happening with the top leadership, middle leadership and most everyone else associated with SGI. Why then is there such a hubris about being the "only true way"?

Remember Sokushin Jobutsu? How can you have sokushin jobutsu when you spend your every waking minute chanting, donating money and doing frenetic activities. A SGI life seems to be a life that is empty of all but SGI activities and sound bites from "Sensei". Is that the basis of sokushin jobutsu? How do you eliminate your dark inner nature when your life revolves around running from one pointless activity to another? Chant for two hours to get an iPod. How did that change poison into elixir?

And what of mercy? In buddhism it is called "ri" and it represents the very core of Boddhisattva. Do you see much mercy in SGI? Oh yeah, all the money they donate to the sick and needy. And the many outreach activities to raise people up. I guess I must have missed that memo too because that stuff isn't happening either. Just a huge amount of self interest. Which Boddhisattva is the buddha of self interest anyhow?

Ok, here is my point.

If Jogyo Buddha was sitting in the Headquarters in Japan, what would he be doing right now? Sitting back and enjoying the pile of money accrued there, or following the Bodhisattva ethic would he be out among the suffering people lightening their load.

If Jogyo Buddha was offered an honorary degree to the university of south frisbee, would he rush to collect it, or would he be out among the suffering people lightening their load?

I could go on and on. Essentially, SGI is a human organization based upon the premise that they can somehow get people closer to enlightment as a Lay organization. But wait! No priest, no lineage to Nichiren, and a lot of bogus gohonzons, all being marketed using the methods pioneered by Amway. One sponsor converts a person who converts two more and on and on. A pyramid scheme. Could it be SGI has lost its way? Perhaps devils have infiltrated? Hmm, worth thinking about isn't it. Lost people following lost people simply get more lost.

Disclaimers: In this missive I have not criticized anyone on this board, I have just pointed out some obvious things which you would never hear at a district meeting. Names have been changed to protect the innocent. Void where prohibited by law. Batteries not included. Mileage varies.

Wakatta



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2010 08:33AM by wakatta1.

@doubtful

Sometimes I think I would like to let go of caffeine in the morning AND the prayer ritual. Sometimes I think that sort of routine guarantees that I will always credit my practice for my the good stuff that happens and my ability to handle the not-so-good stuff that happens. However, there was a time in my life when I lived without the prayer routine and my life was qualitatively worse. I am not talking about a short trial period either. I have enough years on both sides of the routine to suggest that for me the routine is better.

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As I read this a lightbulb lit above my head. Let me pose a question. Has the practice been the same in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1989, 1997, 2002 and today? Worshiping the gohonzon, following Ikea's guidance, doing activities, etc. - is the reward the same?

This is a little metaphysical here, but bear with me.

The different transformations that SGI has gone through over the years has either brought it closer into line with the Gohonzon or taken it further away. Remember, there are a lot of different elements within the script of the Gohonzon. People consumed by the lower six worlds find them represented there (which means Jigoku (hell) is there too) other worlds such as shomon (learning) and engaku (absorbtion) appear as well (the false heaven with a false enlightenment). As the organization rises to higher levels of enlightened behavior or slides to deeper levels of suffering, the gohonzon remains the same. However, the day to day experience changes along with the life condition of the individual. When you worship the Gohonzon your life condition resonates with it, good or bad.

So you can do the same routine for years - gongyo, practice, meetings, and believe you are holding steady or advancing towards eventual enlightenment, but in fact, you could be slipping down the slippery slope since your life condition is linked with your environment (esho funi), and if your environment is only SGI, you go to the same place they are going. To use SGI's terminology, what counts is actual proof.

Wakatta

Hello FMWT, just wanted to answer that No, I wasn't picking up anger from you. I enjoy your perspective. I didn't realize you spent 4 years in the SGI and I was concerned that you were much newer. It sounds like you gave the practice a good try. I sincerely wish you the best. Someone accused me of being insincere and another has stated I am in the life condition of animality. So apparently they think they know me and what is the difference in that and SGI members thinking they know what is best for people? So possibly they are ruled by anger and the need to be 'right' and make their point. Anyway, people are people and hopefully we are all learning more about the nature of our own lives and that both Hell and Buddhahood reside inside. And that is also where the work begins even when we have a therapist walking us through the process. Nothing wrong with that - I've sought out that kind of help myself as well.

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Wakatta1
The different transformations that SGI has gone through over the years has either brought it closer into line with the Gohonzon or taken it further away. Remember, there are a lot of different elements within the script of the Gohonzon. People consumed by the lower six worlds find them represented there (which means Jigoku (hell) is there too) other worlds such as shomon (learning) and engaku (absorbtion) appear as well (the false heaven with a false enlightenment). As the organization rises to higher levels of enlightened behavior or slides to deeper levels of suffering, the gohonzon remains the same. However, the day to day experience changes along with the life condition of the individual. When you worship the Gohonzon your life condition resonates with it, good or bad.

So you can do the same routine for years - gongyo, practice, meetings, and believe you are holding steady or advancing towards eventual enlightenment, but in fact, you could be slipping down the slippery slope since your life condition is linked with your environment (esho funi), and if your environment is only SGI, you go to the same place they are going. To use SGI's terminology, what counts is actual proof.

That's indeed a very interesting thought. To spin it even further any advance in ones life would be based on ones affiliation with SGI any any set backs would be explained by not having fully grasped Ikedaism. Welcome to SGI-Land, quite an easy concept it has become, or not?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2010 01:06AM by Rothaus.

@Rothaus

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That's indeed a very interesting thought. To spin it even further any advance in ones life would be based on ones affiliation with SGI any any set backs would be explained by not having fully grasped Ikedaism. Welcome to SGI-Land, quite an easy concept it has become, or not?

You have an alternative point than I was making but a valid one nonetheless. My point was that by simply sliding along with SGI as it has morphed and changed isn't a guaranteed ticket to enlightenment, and in fact (provided the person was using a gohonzon that worked) it might even be detrimental to do that if the organization is heading in the wrong direction. SGI's group destiny is played out in the lives of everyone submerged into it.

Your point, and a very a good one too, especially within the cult speak mentalities is: If you have a good outcome it is because of the "Awsome power of the SGI". But if you have a bad outcome or bad luck then it is because, first and foremost you weren't chanting right, didn't give enough zaimu, should have gone to that "special" meeting, didn't kneel properly, didn't read enough gosho, (examine your conscience, pick the biggest worry and agonize over it). How many people chant and do gongyo because they are afraid of what bad things will happen if they don't? That is brainwashing if I ever heard it.

One benefit of breaking away from the cult is that you readily get back the ability to fail occasionally and not have it be punishment from for not being pious enough or not making "the right kind of cause".

Wakatta

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Chanter16
Hello FMWT, just wanted to answer that No, I wasn't picking up anger from you. I enjoy your perspective. I didn't realize you spent 4 years in the SGI and I was concerned that you were much newer. It sounds like you gave the practice a good try. I sincerely wish you the best. Someone accused me of being insincere and another has stated I am in the life condition of animality. So apparently they think they know me and what is the difference in that and SGI members thinking they know what is best for people? So possibly they are ruled by anger and the need to be 'right' and make their point. Anyway, people are people and hopefully we are all learning more about the nature of our own lives and that both Hell and Buddhahood reside inside. And that is also where the work begins even when we have a therapist walking us through the process. Nothing wrong with that - I've sought out that kind of help myself as well.

Dear Chanter 16:

I totally misunderstood from where you were coming. I believed you an SGI plant trying to lure FMWT back into the SGI. Please accept my apology. I have seen them surreptitiously misrepresent themselves online dozens of times, in order to promote SGI. Comment sections on forums in which the SGI is criticized are notorious for such counter responses by supposed uninterested third parties.

Mark