@ wakatta1

Picking up on your first post one must also note that SGI to an Ikedaist could never ever be on a slippery slope, so ones own environment is always in perfect 'harmony' and if one does suffer even though one has done as being told, its to show (divine) actual proof – its a test by the (SGI-) universe so to speak. SGI and its followers can never be wrong and even if they are its being declared right to be wrong. After a while one does get a quite twisted view on reality, I can only say this in retrospect though after the smoke has lifted.
I recall once asking a member if she would die for Mr. Ikeda – and after a brief moment of thinking she said yes. I was irritated at the time and the only hope I have for her is, that her sanity, that might have resurfaced in that brief moment of thinking for an answer, will prevail one day.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2010 01:56PM by Rothaus.

Chanter16 - Yes the Masters that have taken in this practice, both had practice other Buddhist teachings – In my opinion they were well versed in Buddhist teachings. Also they would ask me questions and given me insightful answers! None of this mentor/disciple chatter that SGI is pushing. When I do venture into a meeting mostly to see how this theme(mentor/disciple) is progressing – when I am their the leadership has keep it at a low key – Example one Sr. Leader @ a meeting said we accept president Ikeda as our mentor in practice! After his statement I question him – I said I think you misspoke you said we meaning all of us – I believed you meant to say I take Ikeda as my mentor! SO bush back I feel is the key otherwise the powerful in charge will think all is well in the land of Ikeda! Now I must add I am not the only one – and I know that off the radar in conversations there are more that feel the same way but don’t speak up because of the ramifications of speaking out some are in leadership lower echelon or have been member for a very long time and some have Japanese wives and I guess domestic tranquility trumps all.
I recall quit clearly my Masters of over 30 years ago stating to always follow the law and not the person.
For sure SGI was reportedly to support members practice – as we have seen SGI is now telling members that the members need SGI to practice as well as to take Ikeda as their mentor! AMAZING!!!!

Checklist for the Soka Gakkai personality cult:

# 1. The Guru is always right.
# 2. You are always wrong.
# 3. No Exit.
# 4. No Graduates.
# 5. Cult-speak.
# 6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking
# 7. Irrationality.
# 8. Suspension of disbelief.
# 9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions...
# 10. Personal attacks on critics.
# 11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY.
# 12. The cult and its members are special.
# 13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members.
# 14. Unquestionable Dogma, Sacred Science, and Infallible Ideology.
# 15. Indoctrination of members.
# 16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities.
# 17. Instant Community.
# 18. Instant Intimacy.
# 19. Surrender To The Cult.
# 20. Giggly wonderfulness and starry-eyed faith.
# 21. Personal testimonies of earlier converts.
# 22. The cult is self-absorbed.
# 23. Dual Purposes, Hidden Agendas, and Ulterior Motives.
# 24. Aggressive Recruiting.
# 25. Deceptive Recruiting.
# 26. No Humor.
# 27. You Can't Tell The Truth.
# 28. Cloning — You become a clone of the cult leader or other elder cult members.
# 29. You must change your beliefs to conform to the group's beliefs.
# 30. The End Justifies The Means.
# 31. Dishonesty, Deceit, Denial, Falsification, and Rewriting History.
# 32. Different Levels of Truth.
# 33. Newcomers can't think right.
# 34. The Cult Implants Phobias.
# 35. The Cult is Money-Grubbing.
# 36. Confession Sessions.
# 37. A System of Punishments and Rewards.
# 38. An Impossible Superhuman Model of Perfection.
# 39. Mentoring.
# 40. Intrusiveness.
# 41. Disturbed Guru, Mentally Ill Leader.
# 42. Disturbed Members, Mentally Ill Followers.
# 43. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency.
# 44. Dispensed existence
# 45. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic
# 46. Keep them unaware that there is an agenda to change them
# 47. Thought-Stopping Language. Thought-terminating clichés and slogans.
# 48. Mystical Manipulation
# 49. The guru or the group demands ultra-loyalty and total committment.
# 50. Demands for Total Faith and Total Trust
# 51. Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.
# 52. Inconsistency. Contradictory Messages
# 53. Hierarchical, Authoritarian Power Structure, and Social Castes
# 54. Front groups, masquerading recruiters, hidden promoters, and disguised propagandists
# 55. Belief equals truth
# 56. Use of double-binds
# 57. The cult leader is not held accountable for his actions.
# 58. Everybody else needs the guru to boss him around, but nobody bosses the guru around.
# 59. The guru criticizes everybody else, but nobody criticizes the guru.
# 60. Dispensed truth and social definition of reality
# 61. The Guru Is Extra-Special.
# 62. Flexible, shifting morality
# 63. Separatism
# 64. Inability to tolerate criticism
# 65. A Charismatic Leader
# 66. Calls to Obliterate Self
# 67. Don't Trust Your Own Mind.
# 68. Don't Feel Your Own Feelings.
# 69. The cult takes over the individual's decision-making process.
# 70. You Owe The Group.
# 71. We Have The Panacea.
# 72. Progressive Indoctrination and Progressive Commitments
# 73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings
# 74. Trance-Inducing Practices
# 75. New Identity — Redefinition of Self — Revision of Personal History
# 76. Membership Rivalry
# 77. True Believers
# 78. Scapegoating and Excommunication
# 79. Promised Powers or Knowledge
# 80. It's a con. You don't get the promised goodies.
# 81. Hypocrisy
# 82. Denial of the truth. Reversal of reality. Rationalization and Denial.
# 83. Seeing Through Tinted Lenses
# 84. You can't make it without the cult.
# 85. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider
# 86. The cult wants to own you.
# 87. Channelling or other occult, unchallengeable, sources of information.
# 88. They Make You Dependent On The Group.
# 89. Demands For Compliance With The Group
# 90. Newcomers Need Fixing.
# 91. Use of the Cognitive Dissonance Technique.
# 92. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims.
# 93. Black And White Thinking
# 94. The use of heavy-duty mind control and rapid conversion techniques.
# 95. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who leaves the cult.
# 96. Threats of bodily harm or death to someone who criticizes the cult.
# 97. Appropriation of all of the members' worldly wealth.
# 98. Making cult members work long hours for free.
# 99. Total immersion and total isolation.

I would like to add something to isolation. It doesn’t only mean away from your families and friends, although that is a part of doing many SGI activities. It means that when you voice even the slightest doubt about Ikeda and the SGI, one is “isolated” and taken aside and surrounded by SGI members, home visited,, and reindoctrinated. One last thing. there are indeed housing complexes and the equivalent of gated communities in Japan, nearly exclusively inhabited by SGI members.

An SGI member wrote:

"To pretend that this article has anything to do with the SGI is just another example of your dishonesty."

I responded:

Anyone can use this as a checklist against their own Gakkai experience. Are you saying that the experience of hundreds of thousands of Americans who left the Gakkai, many based on just such observations, is invalid? Only in your mind, warped by SGI indoctrination.

Mark



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2010 01:29PM by Nichijew.

@Nichijew,

REading the cult list brings chills up my spine, I can think of two very distinct times when I was ''Isolated" and attempted to be bought back into the fold. One good way to address them if they should try this with you is to remind yourself of the long time, perhaps years that went by when they did NOT home visit or even talk to you . Only once you begin to voice concerns very clearly do they attempt to isolate and home visit you and "re-indoctrinate" you.

indoctrinate [ɪnˈdɒktrɪˌneɪt]
vb (tr)
1. to teach (a person or group of people) systematically to accept doctrines, esp uncritically

Interesting list Mark. I can tell you want to be 'right' about this list. Are you trying to say it all applies to SGI? How long were you a member and did you learn the chant or gongyo and do the practice consistently? I have reviewed the list and can say there are many, MANY that do not apply, but several that really do!

Here is my take:

1, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 31, 32, 33, 37, 38, 39, 40, 45, 47, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 67, 68, 71, 77, 80, 81, 83, 85, 93, 98.

The highest level leadership position for me was a Youth Headquarters Leader and later years an adult division Vice Chapter Leader. I conducted a very consistent practice of the chanting and prayers, and still do. But I realize the activities have very little to do with Buddhism and more to do with membership drives most probably linked to financial goals and needs.

SGI-(USA) is all I can speak about and it has probably bordered on small-scale Cult behavior for many years, but in the last 3 years or so with the re-organization, it is leaning more heavily in that direction with the push for Oneness of mentor/disciple - which is their own invention. I don't see it as a dangerous, life-threatening organization. Membership is still by choice but once you have a Gohonzon you are on the list forever and even if no longer attending activities may be contacted on and off by someone that believes they need to 'wake up' inactive members to improve their own fortune. Maybe it is much more like a cult in Japan or other places.

Quote
Chanter16

I don't see it as a dangerous, life-threatening organization. Membership is still by choice but once you have a Gohonzon you are on the list forever and even if no longer attending activities may be contacted on and off by someone that believes they need to 'wake up' inactive members to improve their own fortune. Maybe it is much more like a cult in Japan or other places.

Perhaps it is not life-threatening, but your life can really be affected by SGI. Devoting most of your spare time and making monetary contributions to SGI is expected if you are a member. When I look back on my life and the lives of others, I wonder how much more I could have done. This isn't to say I didn't do things that I consider great like having children and a career, but somehow I feel that SGI affected my confidence and willingness to try. I just chanted to improve my lot in life, instead of taking action and working for change. When I look back, I see many members who seem to have been held back. Life is what you make of it, and if you are giving all to SGI and to the mentor, then the things in your life are bound to suffer.

Something that I have been thinking about lately is how much more fear I had when I was with SGI. I feared car accidents, making bad decisions, people getting hurt, etc. Maybe it's that we were always talking about karma that made me feel afraid and like it was out of my hands. I've noticed now that I have developed a much more rational approach to the ups and downs of life, and I don't worry (nearly as much!) about catastrophes. I feel more in control of my own life and more accepting of things that I can't change.

Quote
Chanter16
Interesting list Mark. I can tell you want to be 'right' about this list. Are you trying to say it all applies to SGI? How long were you a member and did you learn the chant or gongyo and do the practice consistently? I have reviewed the list and can say there are many, MANY that do not apply, but several that really do!

Here is my take:

1, 5, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 31, 32, 33, 37, 38, 39, 40, 45, 47, 51, 52, 53, 55, 57, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 67, 68, 71, 77, 80, 81, 83, 85, 93, 98.

The highest level leadership position for me was a Youth Headquarters Leader and later years an adult division Vice Chapter Leader. I conducted a very consistent practice of the chanting and prayers, and still do. But I realize the activities have very little to do with Buddhism and more to do with membership drives most probably linked to financial goals and needs.

SGI-(USA) is all I can speak about and it has probably bordered on small-scale Cult behavior for many years, but in the last 3 years or so with the re-organization, it is leaning more heavily in that direction with the push for Oneness of mentor/disciple - which is their own invention. I don't see it as a dangerous, life-threatening organization. Membership is still by choice but once you have a Gohonzon you are on the list forever and even if no longer attending activities may be contacted on and off by someone that believes they need to 'wake up' inactive members to improve their own fortune. Maybe it is much more like a cult in Japan or other places.

Dear chantert 16:

9, isn't true [Nichiren Shoshu, Nichiren Shu Gohonzon worthless, five senior disciples]? To some extent they are all true, if not to one to another. I have been chanting consistently for more than 27 years out of the last 34 years and have maintained my altar for the entire 34 years. Five or six times I did a million Daimoku in 2-3 month span and I too once was a YMD headquarters chief. Now I am a general member of the Kempon Hokke and very happy.

According to the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren Daishonin, they are Law Devouring Hungry Spirits.

Mark

Quote

Something that I have been thinking about lately is how much more fear I had when I was with SGI. I feared car accidents, making bad decisions, people getting hurt, etc. Maybe it's that we were always talking about karma that made me feel afraid and like it was out of my hands. I've noticed now that I have developed a much more rational approach to the ups and downs of life, and I don't worry (nearly as much!) about catastrophes. I feel more in control of my own life and more accepting of things that I can't change.

I can so relate to this. I am glad you wrote about this because I think about this as well. I had a lot more fear when I was in the SGI. I constantly worried about my karma and bad things happening to me. I worried that there would be a lose dog to bite me when I would walk down the street. I worried consistently about karma related things especially when I chanted and did a lot of SGI activities because people constantly were warning me about karma.

Now I feel so much more freedom. I don't have that paranoia. I am so pleased. It is like a load off of my shoulders. Recently, I took a fall at work. It was no big deal. I realized that had I took that fall while I was big into chanting, it would have had a different conotation. I would have been analyzing my karma. I live a more relaxed and ironically happier life to some degree.

Quote
wakatta1

Your point, and a very a good one too, especially within the cult speak mentalities is: If you have a good outcome it is because of the "Awsome power of the SGI". But if you have a bad outcome or bad luck then it is because, first and foremost you weren't chanting right, didn't give enough zaimu, should have gone to that "special" meeting, didn't kneel properly, didn't read enough gosho, (examine your conscience, pick the biggest worry and agonize over it). How many people chant and do gongyo because they are afraid of what bad things will happen if they don't? That is brainwashing if I ever heard it.

One benefit of breaking away from the cult is that you readily get back the ability to fail occasionally and not have it be punishment from for not being pious enough or not making "the right kind of cause".

Wakatta

This rings a bell with me, and so does Quiet One's statement about feeling less fear now that she's out of SGI. I have been on vacation, and my checked suitcase did not arrive at my final destination with me. I had a brief thought of, "I should have chanted before I went on the flight!" My next thought was shock that I still have even a little of this superstitious thinking still in my mind. I reminded myself that this kind of thing happens when you travel, whether you chant or you don't.

I made some calls, and the airline found my suitcase, put it on the correct flight, and I picked it up the next day...my dirty laundry and souvenirs were all there. In the old days, I would have chanted like crazy about the missing suitcase -- and I would have given my daimoku the credit when I got the bag back! I'm here to tell you, even people who don't chant can get their missing luggage back. But why, oh why did I even think for a second that whether my luggage gets where it should has a thing to do with whether I chant? It was that flash of fear, before I reminded myself that these things happen because the people who work at airlines are human, not because it's some divine retribution from the universe for not chanting! (And really, even if it were divine retribution, losing some dirty clothes and cheap souvenirs is a pretty light punishment.)

So what was need to practice – so when I started back in the day one of my Masters asked me what was required to practices – so the list went something like this – Gohonzon, Gongyo, Butsudan, Chanting, Gosho, then the organizations NS/SG.
After I gave my list to him he said all you need to do is to chant – and study Gosho – the rest is window dressing – Let me explain – Gohonzon is not required to practice – a sincere heart is – Butsudan is also not needed people think that a bigger the Butsudan the bigger the benefit – this is also holds true for the Gohonzon of course this is a false premise! On doing Gongyo until the 1960’s the only ones who did Gongyo were the priest - so this is a new item for lay members – Now on the organizations they are not needed to practice no matter how important they try to become!
I am sure I missed something - Like Ikeda guidance but back in the day he was just the President and nothing more :)