another thing about SGI that needs research, is how they treat SGI members who got sick, and then got the entire SGI community chanting for them, and then died.

Also, how many SGI true believers, don't have prompt medical treatment, and just "chant", and then die due to lack of early medical treatment?
That is similar to Christian Science, where in fact, the leadership BLOCKS having studies done of their members death rates due to disease. Why? Because some initial studies were done, and it showed the Christian Science death rates were much HIGHER than the general pubic, as they were not getting quick (or any) medical treatment.

This is why these groups and cults block studies being done of their members. (like the various "nun" health studies that have been done).
Because the leaders actually know their death rates are far higher than the general public, due to delayed or lack of medical treatment, as if people choose to "chant" instead of the best immediate medical treatment, they are going to have the death rates of people from hundreds of years ago, who had no medical science.

SGI does suppress the facts about the many SGI people who die, even after having half of the city chanting for a person.
The "placebo" effect only goes so far, and has no affect on things like cancer, as has been proven many times in actual studies.

So as a side-note, one should always seek the best possible medical attention immediately, of course.
As far as things like just praying or chanting, if that is the only thing done, and medical attention is delayed or denied, then the person is going to have a death-rate of someone in the Middle Ages.

In reality, so-called chanting has no positive effect whatsoever on death rates and illness.
If it did, the only way to prove it, would be for SGI to allow a fully independent university to conduct a proper study. But they don't allow it, none of these groups do.
Why?
Because they have hired people to look at their own internal data on death rates, and they see its HIGHER than the general public. The leaders know this, which is why they don't allow proper studies to measure it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2009 02:52AM by The Anticult.

The Anticult, I agree with the need to study "chanting" and health benefits. I know a study was done with "Christian prayer" and there was no difference in overall recovery rates over people where there was no prayer (the exception was where christian groups framed and funded the studies...WHAT A SHOCKER!). I also know that this new age healing thing that many nurses are into (I forget the term...I studied it over a decade ago) where they don't actually touch the patient, but hover their hands over the patient to heal them with their "energy" proved bogus under scientific scrutiny as well.

I think it is important to separate faith and religion from science, however. As long as an Elvis-haired TeeVee evangelist makes magic claims for his power, then that is a legitimate thing to challenge.

Most people who huddle on their prayer rugs and pray to Mecca or count the Rosary...well...let 'em believe what they believe (unless they dare to claim some Truth better than science...THAT needs to be challenged).

So glad to discover this forum! I was an SGI-USA member for 18 years in LA, and a district leader who quit about 9 months ago. At first, I kept waiting for the "other shoe to drop," like waiting for a disaster to befall me as I had heard would happen to members who went taitan. Well, I'm happy to say that my life has its ups and downs as always, but I'm doing quite alright with my life otherwise. Feel like I woke up from some kind of long dream or brainwashing experience as Anticult described. There were numerous reasons why I left the organization, but the main reason was that as a Vietnamese-American, I realized as I got older and after becoming a lawyer that I was just more conservative and traditional Vietnamese than I thought and couldn't handle the ultra-liberal mindset of most of the SGI-USA members here in LA, who seem to always bring politics, activism or ethnocentric ideas into the meetings and activities. In other words, they couldn't keep politics out of the religion and that turned me off. I also couldn't handle the constant drumbeat of "mentor and disciple relationship", the youth-is-the-most-important emphasis, and the "dialogue, diversity, and tolerance" message always rammed down my throat in the organization. Anyway, I'm looking forward to contributing what I can here.

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gingermarie
It's been a while since I've posted but I've kept up. Both Tsukimoto and Rothaus are so right. I had posted about a Men's Division co-leader that I had trouble with. He was difficult and verbally abusive toward me and other members. I kept getting guidance after guidance, and calling this guy on his nonsense to no avail. The leaders, although they listened, kept telling me that it was my "opportunity" to change some fundamental darkness of my own! Even when I pointed out Ikeda's guidance about Men's Division attitudes toward women that roughly states how those men who are abusive toward the womens's division are not fit to be leaders, they cleverly brushed it aside, and put the responsibility on me. They said that you can't wag Sensei's guidance at people! Furthermore there was absolutely no where to take my grievance. It was appalling. It made no sense. So it seems that SGI follows the mentor only when it is convenient, otherwise it's the member's karma. Perhaps it was a way to keep me chanting and chanting? I dunno.

But, yes, the members are slapped with the responsibility of everything that they can't fix through chanting.

It amazes me how SGI-USA members who zealously preach equality and feminism here in the US never look at the obvious inequality depicted on those monthly Ikeda videos they watch from Japan: how the men sit on one side of the auditorium and the women on the other. That's where I would reform first if SGI has any guts. Make it so that both sexes could sit anywhere in the SGI Japanese auditoriums. My guess is they don't dare to criticize Ikeda for not changing the culture of inequality between men and women in Japan.

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Like you Tsukimoto, I too have wondered, if this really works, many more millions of people should be chanting, doctors, psychologists, etc.

You're so right. I've had countless arguments within the organization that because the vast majority of successful and prominent, indeed famous, people that I admire and look up to in the world in most fields don't chant daimoku. That was one of the simplest evidence to me that practicing this Buddhism was not a prerequisite to being a success in this life. To which the members always countered that "Well, maybe those people are not really happy in their personal lives because they have divorce, children problems, etc.", to which I always responded, "Hey, you're just speculating about these successful people's personal lives," and making sweeping and smug statements like that doesn't advance their argument one bit. Of course, I never got a satisfactory rebuttal to this.

SGI-USA members always give lip service to the idea that they have "interfaith dialogue" with other religious faiths. In fact, one of their Seikyo Times issues a few years back had that topic on the cover. However, I find that in the World Tribune, and in leaders' speeches at the local community center (LA Friendship Center), somebody will inevitably declare that this Buddhism is superior to all other religions because X, Y, and Z. They usually preface by saying some vague disclaimer ahead of time about how people have freedom of religion to practice whatever religions they wish BUT "the SGI is the only religion that"... It's always at this point that I always got pissed off and couldn't even listen or read the rest of the speech.

I tell ya, SGI is clearly using various forms of classic "brainwashing" on various levels of their membership, in differing degrees.
One can use different language to describe it, Thought-Reform, powerful mass persusasion, but they are using some quite strong methods.
And they have deliberately modified them for the west, as they were having trouble years ago with complaints about their methods.

Also notice how SGI has allowed itself to be modified in the west from Japan?
They reformatted SGI to make it more acceptable to those in the west, including modifying many of the methods they use on people.

Its clear that Ikeda doesn't care if the SGI folks are "ultra-liberal" in the west, when they certainly are NOT that way in the east.
Why?
The SGI political wing in Japan is certainly not liberal.

The most common sense answer is that they don't care, and the SGI in the west, is more about generating income, so let them think what they want.

LEAVING SGI
Also, quitting SGI, will certainly not make anything "bad" happen in people's lives.
That actually is a basic cultic technique, to use fear and superstition on people.

Then if something "bad" does happen, people are LOOKING for it, and with the Confirmation Bias, will tend to notice so-called "bad" things, and think its due to leaving SGI.
Again, very clever techniques by SGI to prey on human superstition like that.

Its also can be a self-fulfilling prophecy...like if you tell a child...DON'T SPILL THE MILK over and over, guess what, they are going to spill it. If people fill their minds with fear of "bad things" happening, maybe they will find what they are looking for?

The way to counteract that, is to perhaps get a journal, and make a list of all the "good" things that happened since leaving SGI and various "bad" things, and then look at them objectively, and compare them to the time in SGI.
There won't be much difference, who knows, maybe more good things happened since leaving SGI?

What seems most reasonable, due to the negative effects of SGI, is that after leaving SGI, more good things could happen in people's lives, as they might become more active and start doing new things.
Every cultic group tries to scare their members into not leaving, its a basic scare-tactic, and SGI uses it deliberately.
But when people leave, they often find things get a whole lot better in life.

Why not have a healthier belief about leaving and use the Confirmation Bias to one's own benefit?
Maybe leaving SGI is the first day to lots of interesting new things happening in one's life?
If measured, that is probably the accurate belief, and its certainly more healthy.
The reality, is most likely the opposite to the primitive SGI scare-tactics.

Mav, you wrote:


"It amazes me how SGI-USA members who zealously preach equality and feminism here in the US never look at the obvious inequality depicted on those monthly Ikeda videos they watch from Japan: how the men sit on one side of the auditorium and the women on the other. That's where I would reform first if SGI has any guts. Make it so that both sexes could sit anywhere in the SGI Japanese auditoriums. My guess is they don't dare to criticize Ikeda for not changing the culture of inequality between men and women in Japan."

I remember one video I saw where Ikeda asks all the men to make the guests of honor feel comfortable by taking their jackets off. Immediately, every single man, on the one side, of course, took their jacket off. It was so bizzarre.
Not one young man left his jacket on. There was a sea of white shirts. I wonder, if one young man had left his jacket on, what would happen?

I began a journal and it helped a lot. I began to use my critical thinking skills again. In one entry I recalled how members were often told that "Sensei" would only travel where he could feel the daimoku of the members, and where the "members were fighting the hardest for kosen-rufu. And of course, we want "Sensei" to come to America this year! "Obviously, this would start tosos rolling. Well, when one really thinks about it, Ikeda goes to where the photo-op is the best. He went to China and Russia, no members there. He went to Harvard, for a speech (in the basememt of some insignificant building, where the head of Asian studies wasn't even invited) And he went to Columbia University, for a speech, etc. But no, Ikeda only goes where the camera will follow him. I feel so sorry for people who chant so hard to see him. They are truely deceived. To make matters worse, the members are probably told that they are not chanting hard enough, and that is why "Sensei" isn't coming to America, blah, blah, blah.

On a lighter note, I feel much better since I have stopped participating. No accidents, illness, misfortune, just happier and without all that guilt that I am not doing enough for world peace. :)

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Mav
At first, I kept waiting for the "other shoe to drop," like waiting for a disaster to befall me as I had heard would happen to members who went taitan. Well, I'm happy to say that my life has its ups and downs as always, but I'm doing quite alright with my life otherwise. Feel like I woke up from some kind of long dream or brainwashing experience as Anticult described.

I've had countless arguments within the organization that because the vast majority of successful and prominent, indeed famous, people that I admire and look up to in the world in most fields don't chant daimoku. That was one of the simplest evidence to me that practicing this Buddhism was not a prerequisite to being a success in this life. To which the members always countered that "Well, maybe those people are not really happy in their personal lives because they have divorce, children problems, etc..

When leaders said things like that, I would always think, "Well, how do you know that SGI leaders are really happy in their personal lives? You don't! People can struggle with all kinds of problems -- bad marriages, troubled children, debts, addictions, eating disorders, whatever, and put on a good act to hide their pain. It's human nature to want to look good to the people around you. Wouldn't we all rather be seen as smart people who make good decisions and handle our lives wisely and well? How are SGI leaders exempt from this? SGI leaders, in fact, can feel even more pressure to look happy and successful, since SGI teaches that the practice can help you become that way. If you're a member with unresolved problems, you will not only feel as if you've failed at your job, parenting or marriage -- you'll feel as if you failed at Buddhism as well.

On the whole, my life is going smoothly too, normal ups and downs, but mostly good -- and without the stress and guilt of "I'm not doing enough daimoku; I'm not doing enough for SGI." According to SGI, nothing would ever be enough anyway. I can really feel what you said, Mav, about waking up from a long dream. Now that I'm away from SGI, and writing and reading about the foolishness I was taught...I'm just amazed that I bought into such lame ideas. And relieved that I no longer have to.

Those Ikeda videos, Gingermarie, I know. Once as I was watching one, I found myself thinking, "If President Ikeda told these members to just run out of the auditorium and jump off of a cliff -- they'd scream, "Hai, Sensei!" and do it --and consider it an honor.

Hi everyone - I am happy that all of you have had a rather smooth transition from practicing with the SGI to being independent. I have not. I'll take that for what it is and remain positive that things will change for the better. Problems are karma period. I have not had a sheltered life by any means. I know what the real world is like. I have not until recently had the courage to make this important decision and stick up for what I believe. When all is said and done, I love being me.

More upseting is that I made myself vulnerable by posting my question. I think some responses were very kind and thoughtful. Some were logically or scientifically focused in their reply. Some were outright harsh...I kept thinking not only was I wrong to bare my soul, but "if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen." Obviously this forum is the only one of its kind. I do not plan on isolating myself from this forum just because my feelings might have been hurt.

I am coming along and hope that I will contribute or help someone along the way.

Oh, BTW my biggest issue with Japan vs. the US is the Komeito party. When I first learned of the SGI's financial and promotional efforts toward this political arm, I felt sick to my stomach. Of course none of the people I sought guidance from in the past could fathom or interpret this phenomenon.

What will SGI do when president Ikeda passes away. Will it keep spewing his guidance? Will it start to follow a new mentor? My gut says SGI will remain unchanged.

evergreen,

First I am sorry about your bumpy ride to "recovery". Like any recovery it will get smoother and easier with time...hang in there. I know everyone here wants the best for you ASAP.

You are right to "fear" the Komeito party. The old adage of "relgion and politics do not mix" is most likely a western one. Clearly they do mix in the Komeito.

No one can see the future, but I would probably guess that when Ikeda dies, his successor (and let's face it folks, it WILL be a MAN as sexism is alive and well) will INITIALLY continue Ikeda's direction. As time goes by I would suggest that the new leader of SGI will stamp more and more of his own personal ideas on the org. Eventually the SGI we see today will NOT resemble the SGI of the future (for better or for worse).

@ evergreen
ups, I guess that was answer that may have upset you. Its just about trusting your own judgement again. In SGI one would normaly seek "guidance". In most mainstream faiths, even Nichiren Shu, that would be a normal thing too. The difference being I would then talk to trained people and when it comes to faith even a dsicussion i.e. a REAL dialogue might develop.
In SGI I believe the guidance is rather uesd to keep one on the party line, as the answer seem to stem from a catalogue of possible answers.

@ Sparky
My guess is that Ikeda's son will take over. If that was so then the resemblance to North Korea does have a comic undertone.
Your assertion is right that it will be leader based again. I believe that SGI has taken more on board from Nichiren Shoshu than they would like to admit. The fixation on a person based leadership is so deeply rooted there. Its only a guess though.
SGI will develop into something differnt only faintly connected to Nichiren Buddhism and philosohpicaly at its fringe. Even at the moment the only thing that originates in Nichiren Buddhism are parts of SGI's practice, while the teachings of Nichiren are being more and more replaced by what Ikeda makes out of it.

I think Anticult's journal is a good idea. I was at a point in my life a year or so before I quit SGI where I was trying to win back an ex-girlfriend, and all I got from leaders' guidance was to let her go or chant to fight harder for kosen-rufu. Nobody gave me practical ideas to go out and just do what I used to do best before her and that was to just go out and date tons of women, which I did. It wasn't that I was expecting practical ideas from these leaders, it was just no men's division really understood what I was going through or had been out of the dating scene for so long. I met the girl of my dreams and moved in with her after I stopped chanting. Anyways, the point is that, my love life is great, my business is great, and all this is happening during this severe economic downturn we're having (even with all the high-flyers and poseurs here in LA, the hip spots in town and conspicuous consumption definitely have slowed down).

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gingermarie
I began a journal and it helped a lot. I began to use my critical thinking skills again. In one entry I recalled how members were often told that "Sensei" would only travel where he could feel the daimoku of the members, and where the "members were fighting the hardest for kosen-rufu. And of course, we want "Sensei" to come to America this year! "Obviously, this would start tosos rolling. Well, when one really thinks about it, Ikeda goes to where the photo-op is the best. He went to China and Russia, no members there. He went to Harvard, for a speech (in the basememt of some insignificant building, where the head of Asian studies wasn't even invited) And he went to Columbia University, for a speech, etc. But no, Ikeda only goes where the camera will follow him. I feel so sorry for people who chant so hard to see him. They are truely deceived. To make matters worse, the members are probably told that they are not chanting hard enough, and that is why "Sensei" isn't coming to America, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, they’d been telling us to chant for him to come back to the US since 1996. I think that was his last visit here. I just never understood why SGI-USA members never questioned what was up with this continuing 13-year and longer wait and the chanting and tosos had no effect. Especially since they always said “President Ikeda cares about Los Angeles, he thinks LA will be in the forefront of kosen-rufu for the US and the world!”

SGI always bragged how Ikeda would meet Gorbachev or some other leader. I never was or now too impressed with Gorbachev. In any case, I think Ikeda only met with Gorbachev after he left office and was a private citizen. Ikeda never got to meet with any American President like Clinton or Bush while they were in office, even though he obviously wanted to. Whenever there's an international crisis he would offer a peace solution to the crisis, e.g., the Iraqi Wars.

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tsukimoto
When leaders said things like that, I would always think, "Well, how do you know that SGI leaders are really happy in their personal lives? You don't! People can struggle with all kinds of problems -- bad marriages, troubled children, debts, addictions, eating disorders, whatever, and put on a good act to hide their pain. It's human nature to want to look good to the people around you. Wouldn't we all rather be seen as smart people who make good decisions and handle our lives wisely and well? How are SGI leaders exempt from this? SGI leaders, in fact, can feel even more pressure to look happy and successful, since SGI teaches that the practice can help you become that way. If you're a member with unresolved problems, you will not only feel as if you've failed at your job, parenting or marriage -- you'll feel as if you failed at Buddhism as well.

I can’t tell you how many SGI-USA leaders and members I’ve known or heard about who always presented a happy face and always trumpeted their accomplishments through chanting, who turned out to have been cheating, being unfaithful, or doing some other stuff that supposedly enlightened spiritual people don’t do. Looking back now, it really bothered me that the organization always told young people that they were “special” or in the “forefront” of youths in America who will greatly “succeed” (maybe because this was LA, after all). Well, guess what? 10 or 15 years later, I see these youths and they haven’t “succeeded” spectacularly in anything. Oh sure, the ones who now have regular jobs, spouses, and kids are fine people, but they’re just like responsible 30- or 40-something adults in society who don’t chant. So, what was the purpose of chanting? To have built up your fortune in your 20s so that you could be a responsible adult with a mortgage in your 30s? If that’s the case, I didn’t need to chant. With very few exceptions (like Duncan Sheik, the singer, a friend I did gajokai in the early 90s with), the youths I participated in activities with in my 20s are not in the “vanguard” of anything in American life except in their own minds. I got very disgusted at the rah-rah cheerleading they're doing to the newest crop of youth leaders in my final days in the organization. Felt like they were insulating these kids from the harsh reality of life, e.g., umm, doing Buddhist activities by themselves ain't gonna get you a job, kiddo.

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Sparky
You are right to "fear" the Komeito party. The old adage of "relgion and politics do not mix" is most likely a western one. Clearly they do mix in the Komeito.

No one can see the future, but I would probably guess that when Ikeda dies, his successor (and let's face it folks, it WILL be a MAN as sexism is alive and well) will INITIALLY continue Ikeda's direction. As time goes by I would suggest that the new leader of SGI will stamp more and more of his own personal ideas on the org. Eventually the SGI we see today will NOT resemble the SGI of the future (for better or for worse).

The current American members except for some old-timers are so naïve. I bet 99% of the members who joined after 1992 or so (after the priesthood split) aren’t even aware that there’s such a party. I never heard the word Komeito mentioned anywhere publicly in a meeting by anyone in my 18 years. I only learned about Komeito through private conversations with old-timers in the early 90s, or reading a private translation of an SGI article published in Japan.

There is a censorship process with publications in SGI-USA. No doubt, the SGI censors feel that disclosing the existence of the Komeito party would turn off a lot of American members who in the beginning at least, join a religious organization without expecting there would be a political connection. Too bad many of them eventually change and use the organization as a forum to advocate for one-sided political causes, at least in my experience here in LA.

As far as his son succeeding him, I don’t think that will be enough. Admittedly, President Ikeda is very charismatic and has a unique personality. However, I just didn’t see anybody in Japan who could even come close. Maybe I just don’t know or maybe such a person will rise up. But we would have seen such a man groomed by now and playing a prominent role. As far as Ikeda's son Hamasa Ikeda (I think that’s his name), he seems like a really bland fellow. I don’t think he’ll have what it take to keep the members going. And, yes, I absolutely agree that it’s a shame that nobody questions this automatic succession going on.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2009 03:38AM by Mav.