Re: Former SGI members, SkepDic New Thought
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: May 11, 2009 11:11PM
@ Anticult
In many ways I can agree to what you wrote. More than two years ago I rolled up the gohonzon I received from SGI.
Since I am in the process to get more involved with a more traditional Nichiren School (not NST) I will probably get rid of far more things – It does symbolise a break which is good. And it helps to clear one’s brain, if one continues to practise Buddhism after leaving SGI, having to many things that reminds one can create ill feelings. A surrounding that one reserves for worship should be clear from such objectss.
I will keep most of the books though, except there are some that I was more or less talked in to buy – like “A youthful Diary” etc.
I am not to sure on what you wrote on chanting though, what you referred to was basically autogenous training, in a way thats what SGI uses it for.
I would be highly sceptical if that was Nichirens intention though. Certainly one can ponder and mediate (also in silence) about a problem – but new cars and so forth I would not really consider problems anyway, leading a good life and acting with wisdom in life is in my opinion much harder to achieve.
That leads me to another observation. During my SGI times I often heard “experiences” when people were “victorious” and showed “actual proof”, tears rolled in those meetings and everybody was “encouraged”.
Maybe its just me but whenever things went wrong though like marriages breaking up, dysfunctional family situations within Soka families, severe illness like cancer you name it … if those people were not “victorious” they some how vanished form the scene. I am not sure if they just stayed silent or if they were told to sort things out and not show up at meetings.
The support one received from the peer group always seemed to be guaranteed if one was struggling or on the way to succeed, it got rather silent when someone’s life clearly did not go into the desired direction.
In many ways I can agree to what you wrote. More than two years ago I rolled up the gohonzon I received from SGI.
Since I am in the process to get more involved with a more traditional Nichiren School (not NST) I will probably get rid of far more things – It does symbolise a break which is good. And it helps to clear one’s brain, if one continues to practise Buddhism after leaving SGI, having to many things that reminds one can create ill feelings. A surrounding that one reserves for worship should be clear from such objectss.
I will keep most of the books though, except there are some that I was more or less talked in to buy – like “A youthful Diary” etc.
I am not to sure on what you wrote on chanting though, what you referred to was basically autogenous training, in a way thats what SGI uses it for.
I would be highly sceptical if that was Nichirens intention though. Certainly one can ponder and mediate (also in silence) about a problem – but new cars and so forth I would not really consider problems anyway, leading a good life and acting with wisdom in life is in my opinion much harder to achieve.
That leads me to another observation. During my SGI times I often heard “experiences” when people were “victorious” and showed “actual proof”, tears rolled in those meetings and everybody was “encouraged”.
Maybe its just me but whenever things went wrong though like marriages breaking up, dysfunctional family situations within Soka families, severe illness like cancer you name it … if those people were not “victorious” they some how vanished form the scene. I am not sure if they just stayed silent or if they were told to sort things out and not show up at meetings.
The support one received from the peer group always seemed to be guaranteed if one was struggling or on the way to succeed, it got rather silent when someone’s life clearly did not go into the desired direction.
SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 12, 2009 02:33AM
QUOTE:
Former SGI-USA Leader Denounces Money Collecting Style [www.culthelp.info]
Shukan Shincho, 8/4/94
"Scathing flames of denunciation blaze up from a former leader who engaged in activities in the U.S. for 20 years. Until three years ago, Mr. Frank Ross (46), who resides in Chicago, served as the Lake Shore Headquarters Chief in the American SGI (Soka Gakkai International). The money gathering style in the U.S. he speaks of is pernicious, the same as in Japan. He says Honorary President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire."
...
He further relates, "Several years ago, an SGI Headquarters Chief in Chicago contracted AIDS and subsequently died, even though hundreds of SGI followers were summoned to the Kaikan to chant for his recovery. He was called enlightened and with Buddha. On the other hand, if I get so much as a pimple on my nose, the Gakkai would now tell me, 'You received punishment from the Gohonzon' That is how much they employ brain-washing and mind-control. However, they clearly are nothing more than a business which borrows the title of religion to use as 'bait.'
...
"The World Inbune is exactly like Pravda of the old Soviet Union. I wrote nearly one article a day, but the contents were entirely favorable to the Gakkai. Their only goal was to brain-wash existing Gakkai members and to acquire new members. I had my choice of which meetings to cover, but I was told by the leaders to falsely report the number of attendees. A camera angle from one shot could make a few hundred participants seem like several thousand, and that's what we reported."
...
Mr. Toshimitsu Ryu, a former Komeito Party member of the Tokyo Diet, makes the following observation about the American Soka Gakkai of late. "In the U.S. they are saying that if money is paid to the SGI, benefit will result. This is worse than an 'Inspiration Business.' At any rate, in that country, they are stressing the adoration of Ikeda as a sage, and are teaching that kosen-rufu means spreading Ikeda's name, but Ikeda has been excommunicated from the sect, so to do such things cannot be justified. Originally, U.S. believers knew nothing about such things, but now the facts are coming to light.
Soka Gakkai - Cult Awareness and Information Centre
[www.culthelp.info]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2009 02:48AM by The Anticult.
Former SGI-USA Leader Denounces Money Collecting Style [www.culthelp.info]
Shukan Shincho, 8/4/94
"Scathing flames of denunciation blaze up from a former leader who engaged in activities in the U.S. for 20 years. Until three years ago, Mr. Frank Ross (46), who resides in Chicago, served as the Lake Shore Headquarters Chief in the American SGI (Soka Gakkai International). The money gathering style in the U.S. he speaks of is pernicious, the same as in Japan. He says Honorary President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire."
...
He further relates, "Several years ago, an SGI Headquarters Chief in Chicago contracted AIDS and subsequently died, even though hundreds of SGI followers were summoned to the Kaikan to chant for his recovery. He was called enlightened and with Buddha. On the other hand, if I get so much as a pimple on my nose, the Gakkai would now tell me, 'You received punishment from the Gohonzon' That is how much they employ brain-washing and mind-control. However, they clearly are nothing more than a business which borrows the title of religion to use as 'bait.'
...
"The World Inbune is exactly like Pravda of the old Soviet Union. I wrote nearly one article a day, but the contents were entirely favorable to the Gakkai. Their only goal was to brain-wash existing Gakkai members and to acquire new members. I had my choice of which meetings to cover, but I was told by the leaders to falsely report the number of attendees. A camera angle from one shot could make a few hundred participants seem like several thousand, and that's what we reported."
...
Mr. Toshimitsu Ryu, a former Komeito Party member of the Tokyo Diet, makes the following observation about the American Soka Gakkai of late. "In the U.S. they are saying that if money is paid to the SGI, benefit will result. This is worse than an 'Inspiration Business.' At any rate, in that country, they are stressing the adoration of Ikeda as a sage, and are teaching that kosen-rufu means spreading Ikeda's name, but Ikeda has been excommunicated from the sect, so to do such things cannot be justified. Originally, U.S. believers knew nothing about such things, but now the facts are coming to light.
Soka Gakkai - Cult Awareness and Information Centre
[www.culthelp.info]
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2009 02:48AM by The Anticult.
Re: SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: May 12, 2009 01:59PM
@ anticult
I noticed the articles in the link you submitted are quite old. are you still affiliated to any Nichiren school?
I noticed the articles in the link you submitted are quite old. are you still affiliated to any Nichiren school?
Re: SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: May 12, 2009 10:39PM
Those article links just came up in a search about SGI. There is some interesting info in there.
I had mentioned earlier in the thread about not being a Buddhist, my interest is in more of the cultish aspects of SGI.
I did the SGI "chanting" thing before, when checking out various religions, but was deeply turned off at an SGI chanting meeting where one guy had pics of a Mercedes, valuables, etc, that he was chanting to/at/for. To be blunt, I thought it was absurd, and idolatrous.
I was recruited to this so-called "Buddhist" meeting, never being told it was SGI, and only later figured it out.
Even without knowing all the details at the time, the entire thing seemed incredibly absurd.
I do recall the person who recruited kept trying to persuade me to keep coming back, and it got to the point of avoiding this SGI person's hallway to stop being hassled.
In regards to the previous post about chanting to get stuff, I do agree it lacks the deeper religious significance. But its just an idea about how a person MIGHT keep parts of it, while getting rid of the damaging SGI stuff.
It would be a type of autogenic training, and of course I would agree that does conflict with even a common sense idea of Buddhism. Personally, I think doing a "sacred chant" to get "stuff" is absurd.
On further reflection, its probably best to permanently drop that absurd idea from SGI permanently.
Visualizing goals for achievement is natural and healthy. But linking chanting with "getting stuff" is quite ridiculous, is it not?
On the other hand, the image of the laughing prosperity buddha is a valid one, as it can represent Nature, a good harvest, etc.
But on further reflection, it seems essential to drop all of the SGI methods, as they are really not what they seem at first glance.
Its interesting about SGI. The more one looks into it, the worse it gets.
The main problems with SGI are not really its philosophical and religious problems.
The financial exploitation is a large part of the problem.
But the MOST serious problem, its becoming very clear, is that SGI under Ikeda uses some VERY potent "brainwashing" techniques on people, that have nothing to do with the technical religious aspects, or the Lotus Sutra, or anything like that.
He is using many of the common cult brainwashing techniques on people.
Perhaps focussing just on the religious and philosophical problems of SGI is a serious mistake?
Leaders like Ikeda are usually very clever people, who spend years studying all of the various techniques they can use on people to get them to join their sect, and keep them. These are over and above any of the "teachings". Again, like other groups, its more on a meta-level or what is being done to people by SGI.
The problem though, is that many SGI folks, like other groups, get caught up in the religious/philosophical aspects, and don't look at what is being done TO them by the group.
This is why people stay in SGI for so long, and have such a tough time getting out.
Its very important for some people who know all of the SGI methods, to very carefully analyze them, and how they work and operate on people. That analysis does not yet seem to have been done for SGI.
Clearly, SGI is using various cult and "brainwashing" style techniques on people, and its essential to figure them out, and explain them openly. SGI is using a fig-leaf of "Buddhism" to distract people from what is really happening to them, that is very clear. But when one studies dozens of these groups, the cultic patterns are similar or even identical, when the "religious beliefs" are not related.
SGI is not about Buddhism, anymore than Scientology is about aliens, for example.
Its about money and power for General Ikeda and family. That guy is utterly ruthless, and the more one looks into it, the clearer it becomes. He cynically used "Buddhism" as a fig-leaf, and a way to pander to human fallibility, wishful thinking, and to passify people.
Its really very ugly when one looks at the big picture.
But the part of SGI that needs to be researched are the SPECIFIC mind-control and group-control techniques that are being used. That literally needs to be mapped out in great detail.
I had mentioned earlier in the thread about not being a Buddhist, my interest is in more of the cultish aspects of SGI.
I did the SGI "chanting" thing before, when checking out various religions, but was deeply turned off at an SGI chanting meeting where one guy had pics of a Mercedes, valuables, etc, that he was chanting to/at/for. To be blunt, I thought it was absurd, and idolatrous.
I was recruited to this so-called "Buddhist" meeting, never being told it was SGI, and only later figured it out.
Even without knowing all the details at the time, the entire thing seemed incredibly absurd.
I do recall the person who recruited kept trying to persuade me to keep coming back, and it got to the point of avoiding this SGI person's hallway to stop being hassled.
In regards to the previous post about chanting to get stuff, I do agree it lacks the deeper religious significance. But its just an idea about how a person MIGHT keep parts of it, while getting rid of the damaging SGI stuff.
It would be a type of autogenic training, and of course I would agree that does conflict with even a common sense idea of Buddhism. Personally, I think doing a "sacred chant" to get "stuff" is absurd.
On further reflection, its probably best to permanently drop that absurd idea from SGI permanently.
Visualizing goals for achievement is natural and healthy. But linking chanting with "getting stuff" is quite ridiculous, is it not?
On the other hand, the image of the laughing prosperity buddha is a valid one, as it can represent Nature, a good harvest, etc.
But on further reflection, it seems essential to drop all of the SGI methods, as they are really not what they seem at first glance.
Its interesting about SGI. The more one looks into it, the worse it gets.
The main problems with SGI are not really its philosophical and religious problems.
The financial exploitation is a large part of the problem.
But the MOST serious problem, its becoming very clear, is that SGI under Ikeda uses some VERY potent "brainwashing" techniques on people, that have nothing to do with the technical religious aspects, or the Lotus Sutra, or anything like that.
He is using many of the common cult brainwashing techniques on people.
Perhaps focussing just on the religious and philosophical problems of SGI is a serious mistake?
Leaders like Ikeda are usually very clever people, who spend years studying all of the various techniques they can use on people to get them to join their sect, and keep them. These are over and above any of the "teachings". Again, like other groups, its more on a meta-level or what is being done to people by SGI.
The problem though, is that many SGI folks, like other groups, get caught up in the religious/philosophical aspects, and don't look at what is being done TO them by the group.
This is why people stay in SGI for so long, and have such a tough time getting out.
Its very important for some people who know all of the SGI methods, to very carefully analyze them, and how they work and operate on people. That analysis does not yet seem to have been done for SGI.
Clearly, SGI is using various cult and "brainwashing" style techniques on people, and its essential to figure them out, and explain them openly. SGI is using a fig-leaf of "Buddhism" to distract people from what is really happening to them, that is very clear. But when one studies dozens of these groups, the cultic patterns are similar or even identical, when the "religious beliefs" are not related.
SGI is not about Buddhism, anymore than Scientology is about aliens, for example.
Its about money and power for General Ikeda and family. That guy is utterly ruthless, and the more one looks into it, the clearer it becomes. He cynically used "Buddhism" as a fig-leaf, and a way to pander to human fallibility, wishful thinking, and to passify people.
Its really very ugly when one looks at the big picture.
But the part of SGI that needs to be researched are the SPECIFIC mind-control and group-control techniques that are being used. That literally needs to be mapped out in great detail.
Re: SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: May 13, 2009 05:07AM
Quote
The Anticult
But the MOST serious problem, its becoming very clear, is that SGI under Ikeda uses some VERY potent "brainwashing" techniques on people, that have nothing to do with the technical religious aspects, or the Lotus Sutra, or anything like that.
He is using many of the common cult brainwashing techniques on people.
Perhaps focussing just on the religious and philosophical problems of SGI is a serious mistake?
I can agree that SGI can be manipulative and deceptive...."potent brainwashing" though? If they're brainwashing people, they're not doing a very good job of it. Their retention rate is terrible. I've been following the Byron Katie thread with interest. None of the SGI leaders I've met seem capable of spinning people's minds on that level. Or even close. Ikeda? Most of us have never met him even once, much less spent hours with him.
Some random thoughts about SGI:
1. I think that chanting itself affects the brain and nervous system. Meetings generally open with a period of chanting, so perhaps that makes members somewhat more receptive to what the leaders say after that.
2. There's definitely love-bombing for both new people who come to meetings, and members who give an "experience" about how they chanted a lot, contributed to SGI, and were able to overcome a problem and gain something that they wanted.
3. Keeping members busy with SGI activities. It keeps you away from friends who are not into SGI.... after awhile, most of the people you know will be SGI members. Leaving SGI then means losing a lot of your social circle. You think that you can stay friends with the members after you leave, but often that doesn't happen.
4. Peer pressure; adults are not immune to this. If you're in a room, and everyone else is watching the President Ikeda video and cheering, you feel like you're strange, thinking, "What's so great about this guy?"
5. As Anticult has said, chanting to get something makes you think about it a lot -- which will make your mind come up with some ways to get it.
6. Anticult and Rothaus also mentioned the "confirmation bias." You'll remember if you chanted a lot for something and then got it. If you're an SGI member, you'll also have given an experience -- given a speech at a meeting about how you chanted and achieved your desire. So your SGI friends will also remember that you chanted for something and got it -- and they'll likely have love-bombed you if you gave a great speech about it.
If you chanted and didn't get what you wanted -- you're not going to be up there in front of everyone, saying that. And if you do complain, you'll just be told that you didn't chant hard enough, or with the right attitude, you didn't work hard enough for SGI -- basically, it's your fault! As Rothaus said, SGI members who have problems that they can't resolve...tend to just stop coming around.
Then of course, the leaders say, "Well, of course, so and so's life's a mess, he never comes to meetings, what do you expect?"
7. Wakatta mentions the idea of whether people feel entitled to get what they want. The whole notion of "We are SGI, we are going to save the world and bring about world peace," may make certain members feel more entitled to go for, and get what they desire. Especially if, say, you are looking hard for a job -- AND, on top of that, chanting a lot, and doing extra work for SGI. You start to feel, "Damn, I really DO deserve that job, what with everything I'm doing.
8. You can unite people if they all dislike the same person or group. I think that this was a huge part of the SGI/Nichiren Shoshu split. The SGI leaders felt that they could unite the members by making us all hate the high priest Nikken and his cronies. I think that a lot of the drama around this distracted members from asking about what was going on in the higher ranks of SGI.
This is all very manipulative -- but we live in a very manipulative world. All of us, every day, have people who want to manipulate us to get what they want -- friends, family, coworkers, spouses, salespeople, advertisers. And if you've got kids...they can be the most manipulative of all. My former fiance was a rather manipulative sort. When I accused him of this, he said, "No, I don't use manipulation...it's just 'skillful use of influence.'"
My question is, what exactly is the difference between persuasion, manipulation, 'skillful use of influence,' and brainwashing? Is it just a matter of degree -- persuasion is mild, manipulation is a bit more intense, brainwashing is the most intense? Or are there other differences?
In the beginning, I DID like SGI, and I enjoyed some of the experiences that I had with my groups. As time went by, SGI changed, and I changed. The things I didn't like outweighed what I did like, and I left. Was I manipulated? Yes, I did some things for the organization, like become a group leader, that I really didn't want to do. I stayed a few years too long, in the hope that the organization would change. But I also had some choices. I can agree that I was manipulated, and that information was withheld from me, and other members. Brainwashed, though? That's too strong a word.
Re: SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: May 13, 2009 05:32AM
@ tsukimoto
I think you make some valid points. I would myself not put SGI on a level like lets say Scientology considering the means it uses
But it is not a buddhist organistaion.
If it would at least cause a sort of "self empowerment", but people spend too much time in meetings to let society as whole "benefit" from its goals. The purpose of SGI is SGI and to secure its grwoth and influence.
Buddhism is as whole about reflecting on ones life and actions to simply become a better person and let others benefit from that.
Its a shame that SGI hijacked a wothwhile philsophy, its important to let people simply know that its not buddhism ... also not nichiren buddhism.
The social bonding is a key point in the SGI system. Lost most of my "friends" too.
What SGI would whant to achieve is have an amount of influence just as in Japan. At this stage even the growth SGI may or may not have in europe or the US is just good for ist domestic PR.
But SGI has become shallow thst may even be its danger - more than ever before.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2009 05:49AM by Rothaus.
I think you make some valid points. I would myself not put SGI on a level like lets say Scientology considering the means it uses
But it is not a buddhist organistaion.
If it would at least cause a sort of "self empowerment", but people spend too much time in meetings to let society as whole "benefit" from its goals. The purpose of SGI is SGI and to secure its grwoth and influence.
Buddhism is as whole about reflecting on ones life and actions to simply become a better person and let others benefit from that.
Its a shame that SGI hijacked a wothwhile philsophy, its important to let people simply know that its not buddhism ... also not nichiren buddhism.
The social bonding is a key point in the SGI system. Lost most of my "friends" too.
What SGI would whant to achieve is have an amount of influence just as in Japan. At this stage even the growth SGI may or may not have in europe or the US is just good for ist domestic PR.
But SGI has become shallow thst may even be its danger - more than ever before.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2009 05:49AM by Rothaus.
Re: SGI, President Ikeda is a "money-sucking vampire" SGI brainwashing
Posted by:
evergreen
()
Date: May 13, 2009 08:27AM
This is going to hurt some perhaps. I do not mean to do so. I personally believe that we all have the potential in our lives to look to something external as the source of our happiness. Some even believe that there is a person that will connect you to your own happiness. For the last decade, I have been getting guidance about my problems with the propoganda re: SGI President Ikeda. As I posted before, I do not see him as my mentor on life. I am not his disciple. In fact, I feel that I have a better grasp of the Lotus Sutra and the Gosho than him. Not to sound arrogant. I don't care about real life people who are referred to as examples in Ikeda's guidance. I really don't like the flowery happy crappy language that I've heard my whole life (born into the practice). Its kind of like "think speak" for those of you who are fans of "1984." I follow the teachings of Nichiren period. I guess that makes me a disciple of Nichiren. However, I do not focus on the fact that Nichiren is my master (they changed Master to Mentor years ago to appease the African-American members who did not like the word - due to the historcal significance of master and slave).
The whole point is this - some people need a mediator between themselves and the divine (or in this case buddhahood/enlightenment). It is in their nature to see this propoganda as the truth. I guess it is very human weakness. It is hard for people to reflect and see that they have this tendency. It was hard for me. I think cults suck these people in like vacuums. That's why they stay in business. I feel it is my mission to fix this behavior in my own life and be there for others who would like to work on this themselves.
The whole point is this - some people need a mediator between themselves and the divine (or in this case buddhahood/enlightenment). It is in their nature to see this propoganda as the truth. I guess it is very human weakness. It is hard for people to reflect and see that they have this tendency. It was hard for me. I think cults suck these people in like vacuums. That's why they stay in business. I feel it is my mission to fix this behavior in my own life and be there for others who would like to work on this themselves.
Re: Losing "friends"
Posted by:
dragon14
()
Date: May 24, 2009 07:46AM
Quote
Rothaus
Its a shame that SGI hijacked a wothwhile philsophy, its important to let people simply know that its not buddhism ... also not nichiren buddhism.
The social bonding is a key point in the SGI system. Lost most of my "friends" too.
Somehow I didn't make many friends in the Gakkai after 17 years as a member. There were a couple that I had some interest in pursuing after my departure, but they've all gone cold and I don't really miss them. To be honest, the whole time I felt like an outsider in the group even though I was heavily involved in activities.
What bothered me more was losing the friends I had outside the SGI from before I started with them. I refused way too many invitations to do things with them in favor of SGI activities. As long as I remember to "start from now", I don't drive myself crazy over these mistakes.
Question
Posted by:
evergreen
()
Date: June 01, 2009 11:26AM
I am wondering if anyone has had this experience - Once I started talking about my feelings and my disagreement with SGI etc., I feel like I have had a string of bad luck. I know, I know I should be talkling in terms of karma, but I feel like this is a series of bad things, just one thing after another nonstop. Its making it hard for me, as I keep thinking "my life was better before." Its almost as if I feel like I'm being punished for my incorrect thinking. Its probably my attempts to end my problems. Just wondering if anyone ever felt like they got worse after admiting that they disagreed with Ikeda's guidance, for example.
Re: Question
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: June 01, 2009 09:20PM
@ evergreen
Nope did not have that experience at all. Maybe its that you have to explain you life on your own again and not let others tell you what ikeda would do. Welcome to the real world
It always strikes me how many believed that being in SGI means a trouble free life. At least even Nichiren never spoke of that one bit - and look at the troubles he has been through.
What I noticed is that many SGI memebers even never admitted of having troubles especialy in terms of family troubles or marriages breaking apart - they seemed to have been achamed to talk of things like that. This was wide spread among memebers with a Japanese family background.
Most of them did not strike me as any more or less successful in life than other people.
Nope did not have that experience at all. Maybe its that you have to explain you life on your own again and not let others tell you what ikeda would do. Welcome to the real world
It always strikes me how many believed that being in SGI means a trouble free life. At least even Nichiren never spoke of that one bit - and look at the troubles he has been through.
What I noticed is that many SGI memebers even never admitted of having troubles especialy in terms of family troubles or marriages breaking apart - they seemed to have been achamed to talk of things like that. This was wide spread among memebers with a Japanese family background.
Most of them did not strike me as any more or less successful in life than other people.
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