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evergreen
I am wondering if anyone has had this experience - Once I started talking about my feelings and my disagreement with SGI etc., I feel like I have had a string of bad luck. I know, I know I should be talkling in terms of karma, but I feel like this is a series of bad things, just one thing after another nonstop. Its making it hard for me, as I keep thinking "my life was better before." Its almost as if I feel like I'm being punished for my incorrect thinking. Its probably my attempts to end my problems. Just wondering if anyone ever felt like they got worse after admiting that they disagreed with Ikeda's guidance, for example.

Back when I still a pretty much faithful and unquestioning member, I hit a rough patch -- work and relationship problems. I felt very depressed and went for guidance. My leader persuaded me to exchange my Nikken-inscribed Gohonzon (scroll that we chant to) for SGI's new, Nichikan Gohonzon. This was shortly after the SGI--Nichiren Shoshu split. We wanted to get rid of anything that came from, or reminded us, of the priesthood. Well, I travelled to another city, quite a distance, to exchange the Gohonzon, enshrined it, and began chanting to it. I did begin to feel better. But was it really changing to another Gohonzon? I think it was really just "confirmation bias." I expected to feel better, so I did. Perhaps I also felt better, knowing that some of my fellow members cared enough about my happiness to make a trip to this distant city with me to exchange the Gohonzon.

I think sometimes in life things can just go really badly. Through no fault of your own, you're having problems with money, relationships, work, health, family; it's like the sky falls in on you. And sometimes the reverse can be true, too. This happens to everyone, whether you practice SGI's Buddhism, or not. The thing with SGI is, they just teach you to interpret good or bad fortune in certain ways. If you're having good luck, it's a benefit from practicing. If you're having bad luck, you haven't done enough for SGI, or chanted enough. OR, as a former leader of mine told a friend who joined and then had a run of bad luck -- "You are 'cleaning out' your bad karma, to make way for good karma." He went on to say, "It's as if your life is a hose that is filled with dirt, and your practice is clear, flowing water. You turn on the water, and of course, dirty water is going to come out for awhile. The water is cleaning the hose out. After you practice awhile, your karma will be clean and clear, like fresh water, because you'll have cleaned the dirt out."

All I could think of when I heard that was that sixties song: "Love that dirty water"

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tsukimoto
My question is, what exactly is the difference between persuasion, manipulation, 'skillful use of influence,' and brainwashing? Is it just a matter of degree -- persuasion is mild, manipulation is a bit more intense, brainwashing is the most intense? Or are there other differences?
... I can agree that I was manipulated, and that information was withheld from me, and other members. Brainwashed, though? That's too strong a word.

I don't like to use the word "brainwashing", as it brings up silly images from bad movies.
It was used by former SGI members, about what was being done to people by SGI. But the word brainwashing is a powerful word, and has its uses.
There is lots of information and research in the difference between general persuasion, all the way up to so-called "brainwashing". [www.culteducation.com]

When one studies what "brainwashing" is, its not something mystical.
The 8 points listed above are all a part of "brainwashing".
In the classic Korean "brainwashing" experiments going back decades, it turned out the most effective of the brainwashing techniques, were very permissive, and quite subtle. It starts with a small agreement, then slowly builds up using many social influence techniques. Brainwashing is not about shining a light into people's eyes and waterboarding...its about becoming their "friend", giving them a cigarette or some herbal tea, or a pamphlet, getting a TINY agreement to maybe come to a meeting, then slowly re-engineering their belief systems, using dozens of techniques.

Even some current terrorist groups use many of the same methods, as guess who they learned those techniques from? They can start out very very permissive and lax, and only slowly modify the belief system in a way that seems "voluntary".
You know people are using mindwashing techniques when their #1 defense of what they are doing is...ITS ALL VOLUNTARY. (like Byron Katie, who is an expert in this).
This is because they know they are engineering consent, that appears to be voluntary. That is the best way to do it.

How that is specifically defined, would probably be up to each individual. But the term brainwashing, might be used when groups use specific techniques of ENDLESS REPETITION of aspects of their beliefs, as a way to re-engineer the thinking patterns and beliefs of their members.
SGI certainly does that, that is the core of what they do. Their brand of SGI chanting, certainly would be classified as a type of "brainwashing", as well as the other techniques mentioned.

Of course, that is a loaded term, and one can use the term Thought Reform.
There are a lot of very powerful techniques being used in SGI. Many people stay with it for many years, and are literally obsessed with SGI. They talk about it constantly, every minute.
The people who I see in SGI, who are obsessed with SGI-Chanting, SGI-karma, and SGI-recruitment, are certainly in the grips of very strong Thought Reform.


The key would be, for smart, objective former SGI people, to very very carefully intemize each technique being used by SGI on people, from recruitment, to joining, to retention, to exploitation for money, dishonesty, getting people back, etc. Each technique could be itemized.
And of course, the SGI-Chanting also needs to be carefully analyzed as well. The content of the chanting, the embedded meanings, the group chanting, repetitions, speed of chanting, and everything else.

Knowledge is power, and the specific techniques of SGI really need to be mapped out, just like they have been for other groups. This if course, has really nothing to do with the philosophic/religious side of SGI, that would really be a seperate study.

The above list by tsukimoto is an excellent start. [forum.culteducation.com]

One could imagine after some work and research, that the main SGI techniques could be refined down to maybe 20 techniques, and these could be organized, and put in rough order.
The document could maybe be called something like...

SGI Explained

When people in SGI read it, and its accurate, that could be a real enlightening moment, for people who are just wrapped up in the chanting, and philosophy.

a couple more points might be...

- anti-intellectualism to suppress critical thinking. They encourage people NOT to think too deeply, or to do research into other areas of Buddhism, etc.
- Excessive Self-Blaming: they blame people for everything. Too much self-blame creates excessive Guilt and emotional disturbance. That is a fact known in current psychology.
- more on Confirmation Bias: if chanting doesn't work, its your fault. If it "works" its thx to SGI.
- Catch-22, Setting people up to fail: if chanting does NOT work, then the more you chant, the worse it gets...Catch22
- Deception: in recruiting, etc.
- worship of the Leader.
- social influence: this could be expanded a lot, about the meeting, the phone calls,
- media and print: the movies and materials they eventually use.
- the network marketing approach to getting referrals, how they encourage recruitment for "karma".
- donations and dues. what % of your income do they work at getting? 10% Are some people talked into giving large donations, to get more "benefits"?

There are all sorts of other ideas in the thread, and elsewhere.
Refinements could be taken from the general Warning Signs lists, where SGI seems to hit every one. [www.culteducation.com]


It would be extremely helpful for people who are coming out of SGI, to put them together in a way that makes sense. Almost like an SGI-Wiki for former members?
If one could organize the main components of the SGI Thought Reform techniques, and have a nice list of maybe the 20 main methods explained, that would be very powerful and helpful to people.

One could just put their ideas into a document, and think about it, and refine it.
There is no reason why 90% of the techniques being used by SGI can't be explained in a couple of pages.
the public has a right to know what is being done by these groups to them.



(there is an old movie, Pelham 123, where a subway car is racing out of control. There is a woman Chanting and then saying STOP, trying to stop the runaway subway car. Finally the subway is stopped by a speed mechanism in the subway. The Chanter is seen on screen jumping up and down and saying...IT WORKED! IT WORKED! That sounds like SGI...if you chant long enough, you think it "worked", even when it had nothing to do with it. Or if it doesn't work, its your fault. That is a Catch-22)
SGI is really just a big Catch-22 in that respects.

Also, SGI might seem a bit dumbed-down from other groups, but is it? They have gotten quite large, and the leader has literally become a billionaire. That is far beyond most other groups.
I don't see SGI as being dumbed-down at all, quite the opposite. It does appear to have be quite carefully designed, at least in the west, to appeal and target a specific type of person, people who are willing to pay those dues, and give donations.
They make it appear to be "light" but it really seems that is done on purpose to reach a larger audience.
The CORE of SGI are lifers, but the casual members may come and go, but perhaps SGI is fine with that? The SGI "light" version is more easily marketed and less-threatening to people.
SGI was carefully re-engineered in the west, as they wanted to go mass-market.
But its still very powerful stuff they are using on people, even though it may not be as obvious.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2009 06:27AM by The Anticult.

also, there was one person who was an area SGI "rep" in that this person would be the one to meet with the media, get a photo with the Mayor, that kind of thing.
This person was not an SGI insider by any means, just someone the local SGI selected.
This person would do volunteer SGI tasks basically 7 days a week, going to every function they could get booked at.
So this was a person who was in no way inside the SGI inner circle, but was literally working for SGI for free constantly, and was totally obsessed with SGI, even chanting sub-vocally at social events, and constantly trying to recruit.
This person was completely indoctrinated in SGI.


Also, didn't SGI run into trouble in the past in the USA, as their methods and meetings were too intense? Its pretty clear after that, they toned it down. Its a rational decision on behalf of SGI.
They have their inner circle, and those folks would be profoundly indoctrinated into SGI.

But they also seem to have decided to have a much larger public base, which requires less intensity. The basics seem to be like a standard western church, attend a "service" once a week or so, give donations, and buy stuff.
From SGI's point of view, that is perfect. They don't need tens of thousands of fanatical believers in SGI, that would backfire.
What they seem to do is to cultivate a very large base, with moderate demands on people, mainly attend the chanting events at people's homes, pay your dues, buy stuff, recruit your friends, etc. Its mainly an income stream for SGI.

Then the local SGI higher-ups select a few dedicated people, to "rep" for SGI, and work for free, like the person above.
But even those people are far away from the inner circle of SGI.

So SGI is really quite brilliant. They don't have to build "churches" or centers that cost money, people do it in their homes. They probably have very few paid staff, as most folks are these 24/7 "volunteers" who do all the SGI work for free.
And at the base, they have a very large group of people, who pay their dues, buy the books, and recruit their friends. SGI deliberately does not go too hardcore on the base, as that would backfire.
But at the same time, they are using some very strong techniques on those folks.

and the people they select to be local "Leaders" get far more into it. But at the same time, they are not anywhere near the inner circle. One doubts they touch one penny of the SGI money.

It would be interesting to know what kinds of methods that SGI uses on people who stop paying their dues?

but honestly, SGI may seem like chaos, but they really are a very successful group, they have a lot of members, and they are one of the most aggressive recruiters of any group out there.
The SGI targeting of the recruitment of friends, is one of the most active.
Some of us have been approached more by SGI people, than every other cultish group combined.
(except for those who target people on the streets, like Scientology).

But once SGI gets into a network of people, it can spread like wildfire, with many people moving into it, who are then convinced recruiting their friends is good karma.
Its very much like Amway in that sense.

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The Anticult
They have their inner circle, and those folks would be profoundly indoctrinated into SGI.

But they also seem to have decided to have a much larger public base, which requires less intensity. The basics seem to be like a standard western church, attend a "service" once a week or so, give donations, and buy stuff.
From SGI's point of view, that is perfect. They don't need tens of thousands of fanatical believers in SGI, that would backfire.
What they seem to do is to cultivate a very large base, with moderate demands on people, mainly attend the chanting events at people's homes, pay your dues, buy stuff, recruit your friends, etc. Its mainly an income stream for SGI.

So SGI is really quite brilliant. They don't have to build "churches" or centers that cost money, people do it in their homes. They probably have very few paid staff, as most folks are these 24/7 "volunteers" who do all the SGI work for free.
And at the base, they have a very large group of people, who pay their dues, buy the books, and recruit their friends.

and the people they select to be local "Leaders" get far more into it. But at the same time, they are not anywhere near the inner circle. One doubts they touch one penny of the SGI money.

It would be interesting to know what kinds of methods that SGI uses on people who stop paying their dues?

That's pretty much how it works. At the top of the pyramid, there are a small number of paid SGI workers. These people, however, will have worked for free for SGI for many years, showed total devotion to Ikeda, and never questioned the party line. In the middle, you've got the fanatically devoted middle-level leaders, whose life is SGI. At the bottom, lots of folks like me. Some perhaps join, participate for awhile, and then never come back. Others may participate and donate occasionally, when the urge hits them. Others may do more for the organization, but are just too independent, or have opinions that their leaders don't care for. Nonetheless, they're often useful and not annoying enough to chuck out. (That was me.)

We never really did pay dues, that I can recall. There's the pressure to subscribe to their publications, and there's a fundraising drive in the spring. Maybe if they wanted to do something special, there'd be another "zaimu," or fundraising campaign at another time of year too. When you sent money in, you could mail it directly to the community center in your region in a special envelope, bypassing the local leaders. I didn't contribute every year...sometimes not even every other year, and none of my leaders ever asked me about it. You had the manipulative "experiences," testimonials in which people talked about donating money and then having financial breakthroughs. Leaders gave speeches encouraging you to donate. However, you were not, in my experience, confronted if you didn't contribute. As a small-level leader, I never handled any money for SGI. (Nor was I ever reimbursed for anything -- gas and tolls for driving members to far-away meetings, buying refreshments for meetings, copying study materials for meetings. That money came out of my own pocket, unless I nagged my passengers to chip in for gas and tolls.)

SGI does have some community centers in the United States, in larger cities where there are larger numbers of members. The members in and around these cities are expected to clean and maintain the centers. As to whether SGI owns the centers, rents the buildings, how electric bills are paid, etc., I have no idea. SGI is not forthcoming on the subject of money.

Where I felt a lot of pressure was in donating time. I felt I did a lot, but they always wanted you to do more. I understand, if you're going to have an organization, religious or otherwise, members must contribute -- either cash or time. The group must have somewhere to meet. Someone has to plan and lead services, meetings, study sessions. Members of the organization must either contribute money to pay someone to pay for a space and the salary of the person who does this work --, or members volunteer their time and their homes.

My beef with SGI was not that I was asked to work per se. It was: 1) Too many activities, 2) Local groups did not have much say about what activities they held -- the folks at the top told us what meetings we had to put on, 3) No open discussion at meetings; you couldn't question the party line, and 4) Excessive emphasis on Ikeda, rather than Buddhism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2009 06:32AM by tsukimoto.

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Rothaus
That sums up my experience quite well too - and I am in europe. Although I would add the "experience" part. Thing is if one had problems that could not get solevd then it was certainly due to ones lack of faith and not accepting I keda as your mentor.
Lookong back this quite a smooth way to keep people comming bach - its actually the oppoisite to the much celebrated self empowerment that was talked about. In reality it creates the feeling of not being good enough, not having had enough faith.
And I am sure your were also told that looking after the comunity center (cleaning etc) is about polishing your karma.

A while back I learned that a member who was very active has become very sick. I said to a member that I am sure other members will look after her. "Thats not what SGI is for" I heared. I was a bit stunned must say.
On the other hand it would not fit in SGI's picture to see somebody dedicated to fall so ill? Wouldn't it?

Yes, my leaders also quoted that line about how cleaning the community center cleaned up and polished your karma. One leader also joked about how driving yourself and other members to all of these far-away meetings helped change your "Carma."

Earlier, I was reading the thread on Oprah and her celebrity doctor friends in the "Celebrities Associated With Groups" forum on Rick Ross. Many posters there felt that Oprah and her guests were promoting the notion that if you get sick, it is your fault. You had thyroid trouble because there were too many things that you wanted to say and didn't, for one example. You had a negative attitude, you followed your doctors blindly, you didn't take supplements and hormones -- whatever, you brought it all on yourself. Oprah and some of her guests seemed unable to accept the notion that in the end, EVERYONE ages and dies, no matter how wonderfully you take care of yourself.

It reminded me a lot of SGI -- how, if you cannot resolve health or other issues in your life, it all becomes your fault. You didn't chant enough, contribute to SGI enough, had a negative attitude...you did something wrong. That mindset either makes you chant and do more and more for SGI, or you just quit. Other members quite often don't have much compassion for you, or at least it feels that way. You feel as if they are looking at you and judging: "Why can't she solve her problem? If you chant, and help build SGI, you can overcome anything!" Well, what if you can't? Rothaus is right. It wouldn't fit SGI's picture at all to have people with serious, unresolved issues hanging around. It would be like an obese salesman trying to sell weight-loss programs.

I posted earlier in this thread about how I was given guidance to chant for a young relative of mine to be healed of Type I diabetes. Really, if chanting can cure diabetes, why doesn't the American Diabetes Association know this? Chanting endlessly and fruitlessly for an impossible thing can only lead to frustration, depression, and guilt. And why did Josei Toda, the second Soka Gakkai president, who described this Buddhism as a "wish-granting machine," die at age 58 -- of complications from diabetes when he dedicated his life to SGI, and had thousands of devoted followers chanting for him?

@ tsukimoto

Well it seems that experiences in SGI are quite the same all over the globe.

What I also noticed is that the so called "fortune babies" (those born into SGI), do turn their backs on SGI later in life. As I mentioned in one of my posts, there is a family that comes to mind where one parent was a strong member the other was not a member at all. The child -when it still was a child- was the best in anything one could imagine. The thing was though the real family situation was quite disfunctional. The SGI-parent was up and around "supporting" people, while the own child developed serious mental health issues.

The kid realy has some heavy issues, but what surprised me since the child has meanwhile become a young adult his problems are suddenly his fault ... his "responsibilty".
To be honest I found that to be quite sick.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2009 11:30PM by Rothaus.

It's been a while since I've posted but I've kept up. Both Tsukimoto and Rothaus are so right. I had posted about a Men's Division co-leader that I had trouble with. He was difficult and verbally abusive toward me and other members. I kept getting guidance after guidance, and calling this guy on his nonsense to no avail. The leaders, although they listened, kept telling me that it was my "opportunity" to change some fundamental darkness of my own! Even when I pointed out Ikeda's guidance about Men's Division attitudes toward women that roughly states how those men who are abusive toward the womens's division are not fit to be leaders, they cleverly brushed it aside, and put the responsibility on me. They said that you can't wag Sensei's guidance at people! Furthermore there was absolutely no where to take my grievance. It was appalling. It made no sense. So it seems that SGI follows the mentor only when it is convenient, otherwise it's the member's karma. Perhaps it was a way to keep me chanting and chanting? I dunno.

But, yes, the members are slapped with the responsibility of everything that they can't fix through chanting.

Like you Tsukimoto, I too have wondered, if this really works, many more millions of people should be chanting, doctors, psychologists, etc. Did anyone ever take in to consideration how the world order would be messed up if "kosen-rufu" were achieved? Would there be democracy, or freedom of religion? Anticult is right in saying that deep thinking isn't really encouraged. How could we think to impose a 13th century monk's idea of the perfect world on a 21st century world order? (Nichiren had defined kosen-rufu as everyone in the world chanting while SGI modified this idea to reflect 1/3 of the world chanting, 1/3 supportive, and 1/3 not supportive would be kosen-rufu.) The very concept is flawed from the inception.

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gingermarie
I had posted about a Men's Division co-leader that I had trouble with. He was difficult and verbally abusive toward me and other members. I kept getting guidance after guidance, and calling this guy on his nonsense to no avail. The leaders, although they listened, kept telling me that it was my "opportunity" to change some fundamental darkness of my own! Even when I pointed out Ikeda's guidance about Men's Division attitudes toward women that roughly states how those men who are abusive toward the womens's division are not fit to be leaders, they cleverly brushed it aside, and put the responsibility on me. They said that you can't wag Sensei's guidance at people! Furthermore there was absolutely no where to take my grievance.

"You can't wag Sensei's guidance at people!" Oh, Lord help us, where is the logic, where is the consistency!? The leaders shove Ikeda's ideas at members all the time and say that he is the wise mentor we must all follow. Then, they can actually say THAT to you and totally not see how they contradict themselves!?

These leaders also say that they believe in open dialogue -- except when you have a different opinion from the party line.

They say that they believe in the importance of family -- except when your family actually has the nerve to ask you to spend time with them rather than at an SGI function.

They say that all you need to do to attain enlightenment is chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo -- oh, except for taking Ikeda as your mentor, making financial contributions to SGI, spending all your free time working for SGI, hating the Nichiren Shoshu priests, and trying to get everyone you can to join SGI.

They say that all members are to be cherished -- well, except for those who disagree with or challenge the organization in every way. Oh, and except for those members that some senior leader feels like disrespecting.

They say that democracy is a wonderful thing -- but no, that doesn't mean that you could actually risk letting rank and file members have some say in how the organization is run...choosing leaders and activities, having a grievance procedure.

Lord, can you believe that at one time, I actually thought that most of the SGI leaders told the truth? WHY did I believe that, when they so obviously don't? In the beginning, they also told me that Buddhism was not about blame and guilt...and then they blame and guilt-trip you for everything that happens to you. If you get sick, it's your fault. If someone behaves badly toward you, it's your fault. Should've chanted more! Could've had a V8!

These leaders are like the Chatty Cathy doll that I had as a little girl. You pulled a string that was in her neck, and you would hear whatever line came next in the recording that was inside of her. She'd spout, "I love you," or "Will you play with me?" regardless of what you actually said to her. She was a cute doll...but I wouldn't go to her for guidance.

A world where 1/3 of the population practices Nichiren Buddhism? Well, just look at the Nichiren sects and SGI -- the lies, the corruption, the infighting between different Nichiren groups...probably Kosen-Rufu World would not be much different than the world we live in now. I would not like to see Ikeda and his cronies have any more power than they already do, however.

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tsukimoto
"You can't wag Sensei's guidance at people!" Oh, Lord help us, where is the logic, where is the consistency!? The leaders shove Ikeda's ideas at members all the time and say that he is the wise mentor we must all follow. Then, they can actually say THAT to you and totally not see how they contradict themselves!?

These leaders also say that they believe in open dialogue -- except when you have a different opinion from the party line.

[SNIP

A world where 1/3 of the population practices Nichiren Buddhism? Well, just look at the Nichiren sects and SGI -- the lies, the corruption, the infighting between different Nichiren groups...probably Kosen-Rufu World would not be much different than the world we live in now. I would not like to see Ikeda and his cronies have any more power than they already do, however.

In the context of the ten worlds, that whole stream of alternatives you've listed sums up "chikushou" pretty well. I suppose if an organization was to become innundated by SanShoShiMa (as Nichiren himself stated), it would act exactly in that fashion. Of course anyone who opposed the negativity would be beaten "about the head and shoulders" with the Lotus Sutra scroll - Heh! Ironic how that plays itself out, and there are questions where the organization is coming from?

People leave organizations for many reasons, but a big one is that eventually the organization forces them into making a choice. I'm sure we are all here because of the choices we made.