Just wanted to say that Nichiren did not focus on practicing traditional/historicaly known Buddhism. He taught Bonnu
Soku Bodai - earthly desires equal enlightenment. He took stories from Hinayanna practice, but ultimately taught Mahayanna practice. I do agree that some people and the SGI might misinterpret Nichiren's teachings. I went to an Ivy League school and fortunately had the chance to study under several stellar Buddhist scholars during my time there. I do understand what or how you might surmise a particular faith is authentic/real Buddhism. However, Nichiren is not Tibetan (BTW Tibetan Buddists have MANY factions within their own faith - the Dalai Lama is just one of the purported heirs to the throne). Nichiren was Nichiren. He taught chanting as a way to face all of life's challenges. He taught that it was impossible and pointless to negate our human tedencies. He did tell us to face our basic desires/behaviors and turn them into something that would resemble or emulate the behaviors of a Buddha.
So I don't think its fair to say that we are not real Buddhists because we don't stuy the eight fold path like you do.

That being said. I have been following you posts and appreciate your authenticty. No offense but what is up with all the references to one's mammory glands :)?

evergreen .... what are you trying to tell us?
"Bonnu Soku Bodai" - okay but nichiren was more than just "Bonnu Soku Bodai"
are you tying to say that one should be grateful that SGI has GLBT meetings??? pleeease the lotus sutra is above that :-)

Tsukimoto - you said:

"Rothaus, I am anti-homophobia. SGI's stance irritates me because I feel that it is all about self-interest rather than principle or genuine compassion and respect for people"

I think one only needs to look at the many charitable activities that SGI/NSA undertakes to truly see the golden heart underneath (NOT!).

No matter what the set of issues, SGI/NSA has been consistently self-interested almost to the point of Xenophobia.

The gay issues have been around from its very start in the US, and NSA/SGI openly resisted initially but eventually caved in, preferring to simply permit it's existence within the organization but never wanting to be a supporter (and secretly advising members if they chanted harder and changed their destiny they would eventually "get over it").

The plight of single mom's is another of the same sort of thing - just an organizational embarrassment. Women have their place in the NSA/SGI totem pole as secondary and supporting members. Single moms were for some reason regarded as unseemly to the organization and so you would rarely see any activities around them (i.e. "Single Mom's Daimoku Toso" wouldn't show up on any schedule."`)

As far as charity overall, when I was practicing there was little to none. SGI/NSA was indeed a very self-interested and self-absorbed organization. Ikeda was allowed to be the master diplomat, to give speeches, to travel the world and meet with all the petty dictators needing some kind of legitimacy as "humanists". Everyone else under him were just required to stay home and tend the organization's money fields.

Does anyone know of orphanages, homes for battered women or cancer research laboratories funded by NSA/SGI money? All I know of are a handful of "Universities". I was once told that there was no place for charity in the Soka Gakkai and that if I really cared about someone I'd chant for them to be Shakabuku'ed where they would change their destiny. In the meantime, if I had money to give to a "charitable organization" I should give it to SGI/NSA to enable it to "change the world".

Dear Roathus and others,

I actually wasn't even addressing the GLBT chat going on. I was raised by a lesbian so I won't even deem myself as non supportive of those members. That would be self loathing to say the least.

I was addressing someone's response that said that one is not a real buddhist unless they follow hinayanna only traditions.

I am sorry that I didn't make the target of my response clear. My friend and I fought to have a GLBT conference in the FNCC years ago. The SGI wouldn't approve of it. Years later, for some unknown reason, they decided to add it to the list of conferences offered. I remember being thankful and yet confused as to why it was initially rejected.

Dear Wakatta,
I am stumped as to why SGI doesn't do charitable activities. I know other SGI groups outside of the USA do participate in them.

Hi evergreen,

thanks for the clarification.

As I said earlier a GLBT group within SGI to me is like a rambling or hiking club within a prison. The main thought behind diversity groups, gaylib ... whatever tag you put on it is far to outreaching in the SGI world. The reason for the gaylib movement was to give a sexual orientation a wider acceptance. Sexual orientations though come in all shapes an sizes and walks of life hence (most of the time) a far more liberal approach to other aspects of life - this scares SGI a bit I guess.

I lived in the UK for a while and noticed that members there are far more engagegd in charity than in other SGI organisations, but I guess its a reflection of a nations culture.
SGI likes to portray itself a as an altruistic organistaion. It alway struck me that SGI was hardly engaged in any charities and if so it had more of a PR-related character.
One then would have thought that the ideas of SGI would have caused members to be themselves active in lots of charities - but that ain't so because they are too busy doing human revolution in meetings.

Quote
evergreen
Just wanted to say that Nichiren did not focus on practicing traditional/historicaly known Buddhism. He taught Bonnu
Soku Bodai - earthly desires equal enlightenment. He took stories from Hinayanna practice, but ultimately taught Mahayanna practice. I do agree that some people and the SGI might misinterpret Nichiren's teachings. I went to an Ivy League school and fortunately had the chance to study under several stellar Buddhist scholars during my time there. I do understand what or how you might surmise a particular faith is authentic/real Buddhism. However, Nichiren is not Tibetan (BTW Tibetan Buddists have MANY factions within their own faith - the Dalai Lama is just one of the purported heirs to the throne). Nichiren was Nichiren. He taught chanting as a way to face all of life's challenges. He taught that it was impossible and pointless to negate our human tedencies. He did tell us to face our basic desires/behaviors and turn them into something that would resemble or emulate the behaviors of a Buddha.
So I don't think its fair to say that we are not real Buddhists because we don't stuy the eight fold path like you do.

That being said. I have been following you posts and appreciate your authenticty. No offense but what is up with all the references to one's mammory glands :)?

References to mammary glands? Maybe that's just on people's minds because of Mothers' Day. :-)

Evergreen makes a good point, one that has been made before: Nichiren judged the last teaching of the Buddha, the Lotus Sutra, to be the highest and most important -- thus Nichiren's mission was all about spreading the Lotus Sutra, and the daimoku (chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo) rather than teaching the Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths. A Nichiren Buddhist should study and be able to explain the basics of the Gosho (Nichiren's letters to his followers) and the Lotus Sutra. However, as Evergreen says, it's not fair to criticize Nichiren Buddhists for not knowing the earlier, provisional teachings of the Buddha -- for us, the Lotus Sutra has replaced them. It would be like expecting Christians to study the Torah. Why should they? For a Christian, the New Testament has replaced the Torah and the Old Testament; a Christian's faith is based on the NEW Testament.

Since SGI split with the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood, serious study of Buddhism has pretty much vanished in SGI. I agree with Rothaus on this. In the past, SGI did promote more study -- and those SGI members who chose to study COULD tell you that the Eightfold Path, etc. was a provisional doctrine. Even we rank and file members knew what the Lotus Sutra said, and that it was the basis of our practice -- and why it was the basis of our practice. These days, I doubt that even the leaders could explain this. After the split, SGI just began showing the President Ikeda videos and studying HIS writings, rather than Nichiren's.

Anticult, I understand that you have met some self-centered and irresponsible SGI members. So have I, but I have also met some honest and compassionate ones. You can take ANY religion or philosophy and pick out handfuls of members who say that they are devout whatevers -- and yet who are dishonest, selfish, vain, irresponsible, and unkind.

What exactly is Nichiren's attitude about gaining benefits from chanting? I interpret his Gosho as saying that chanting can help people to gain enlightenment and support them through the difficulties of life -- but on the other hand, he writes that chanting is not going to guarantee you an easy life either. In my opinion, he would be appalled by the second SGI president, Josei Toda, promote chanting as a "wish-fullfilling machine," and horrified by members chanting for cars and money.

As for the "Earthly desires are enlightenment," I interpret that as learning from my problems and mistakes, and accepting that I am human, and that sometimes I'm going to really screw up -- do things that are mean, selfish, or just plain stupid....acknowledging the mistake or fault and trying to do better in the future. I think in religion, it can become too black and white -- the leader is perfect, the members are weak and flawed; no criticism of the leader is allowed...you're good if you follow the religion, bad if you don't. I prefer the mindset of we all have wisdom and compassion, and we all have a certain amount of greed, anger and stupidity too. SGI, in my opinion, has weakened themselves with their black and white thinking -- "You're either for us or against us."

yes, just to clarify again, there are obviously many SGI people who are sincere and thoughtful.
But those folks are probably NOT the one's stuffing SGI pamphlets at people!
;-)

The difference concerning SGI in the west at least, is that these folks seemed to find total support for their views from their SGI group.
For whatever reason, the shallow side of SGI comes forward again and again.

There are a lot of people who are quite upset at their SGI friends for constantly trying to shove SGI at them. They have to block the SGI spam email forwards from them, and they get to the point where they can't tell their friend anything that has gone wrong in their life, as the SGI person will...pitch SGI at them. It really can ruin friendships.
So there is quite a bit of irritation there, from non-SGI people, who know SGI people, and same in the workplace too.

One assumes SGI people don't know how much their pitching SGI constantly irritates their friends, as they friends generally don't tell them, just complain about it to others!


But again, even these SGI folks are sincere in what they believe, they appear to have just been mislead by their local SGI people.
It would be fascinating to see how the SGI higher-ups choose to market their SGI to people in the west, where so many people have no knowledge of Buddhism, and just want to hear about the "chant and get rich" thing.
Hmm, just thought of that book, Think and Grow Rich.

SGI should have a slogan and a book...Chant and Grow Rich.
That would be a bestseller, no joke.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 04:17AM by The Anticult.

Quote
wakatta

Does anyone know of orphanages, homes for battered women or cancer research laboratories funded by NSA/SGI money? All I know of are a handful of "Universities". I was once told that there was no place for charity in the Soka Gakkai and that if I really cared about someone I'd chant for them to be Shakabuku'ed where they would change their destiny. In the meantime, if I had money to give to a "charitable organization" I should give it to SGI/NSA to enable it to "change the world".

I remember someone asking a leader that at a meeting I attended some years ago. The leader said that a person could change his or her life -- get anything, resolve any bad circumstance -- just by chanting. Giving someone charity, this leader said, was not really helping them because the person was not changing the bad karma that was the root cause of the problem. Only teaching the person to chant "Nam-myoho-renge-kyo," was really helping. That would enable the person to really get to the root of his or her difficulties, and change the bad karma permanently. See, Wakatta, if those orphans had just chanted more, they wouldn't have lost their parents in the first place. (NOT!)

Obviously, I no longer buy into this way of thinking, but it does explain why many SGI members behave as they do: the lack of charity, street shakabuku, pestering people to death to get them to join SGI, the fanatical support of SGI no matter what it does or says, blind devotion to President Ikeda, giving the organization money that you can't afford to give -- all of this stems from the mindset of "Being a devoted member of SGI, following President Ikeda, and chanting lots of daimoku can change anything."

That part of chanting to change anything, is exactly the same idea as New Thought, with the same pitfalls. Of course, they have changed the words, but its really the same thing.

SkepDic New Thought (aka Mind Cure or Mind Science) movement [www.skepdic.com]

People fall into the Confirmation Bias. [www.skepdic.com]
They remember when they THINK it worked, and don't even notice when it does not.

The interesting thing is these things can SEEM to work sometimes.
If a person really really WANTS something, and chants for it constantly, (or does New Thought treatments), then they are thinking about it all the time.
For a normal person, the more you think about something, the more ideas you get on how to get it.

Its like if you are shopping for a red convertible, you will see red convertibles all day long, whereas before you never noticed them.
So that is what tricks most folks.

They think..I Chanted, and it worked!

No, it didn't work by magic. Your mind worked the way it was supposed to. You get a picture in your brain of something you want, and then you figure out how to get it, or notice it.
and thinking about something all day, makes you NOTICE new things you would have missed.
also, people change their thoughts about if they even CAN have the thing, etc, so it modifies their beliefs.

So in that sense, what SGI is selling in this area, is the same as The Secret. No wonder so many people get into it, that stuff is very popular these days.

So even if a person gives up SGI, they don't have to give up THAT part of it. They could still make a Goal list, and "chant" for it.
One could maybe even imagine a person having an image/statue of the "chubby Buddha" of prosperity, and you "chant" to that Buddha to HELP you?
Why not?
In that way, it could just be looked at as a person tuning into their own "unconscious" to help them achieve goals, using a symbolic image.

Anyway, just wanted to drop that idea in there, as I mentioned it before. As former SGI people, or other groups, don't have to give up "everything" to leave.

But if a person has stuff from SGI, it would NOT be a good idea to "chant" in front of that, as then SGI gets pounded into one's brain everyday, and reinforced.
Best to start fresh, and get rid of all the connections.
That is the same for any group, like Byron Katie for example.

IDEAS on how to KICK-OUT byron katie from your Mind-Soul-Life forever [forum.culteducation.com]

just wanted to put some positive stuff in there as well.
People can leave these groups, and they don't have to give up everything!
They can find new social connections around Buddhism if they are into that.
and a person can still "chant" for a Goal...its just really thinking about it. But one would be wise to drop all the SGI baggage and superstitions around this. They deliberately pretend they have some "magic formula"...just like all the other groups and cults.
;-)

on a fun note, some people get GREAT results by informally "chanting" for luck and good stuff, to those little "Lucky Cats" (Maneki Neko) with the waving arm... [farm3.static.flickr.com]
personally, I can't imagine the Buddha wants people to hassle him all day long Chanting for a new Mercedes. Kinda ironic...

...but the Lucky Cat won't mind...
:-)
(its funny, the Feng Shui people have taken on the Lucky Cat ideas, and have turned it into some wild superstitions...why not just have fun with it?)

so anyway, why can't people just put their own thing together, without the baggage and nonsense?
There is no SGI magic formula to thinking about things, and then getting them sometimes.
That's how we all get our lunch everyday!

but of course, they take it further into all those other areas about "clearing the Karma" and everything else.
What a trap.
That's a real Catch-22.
The more passively people Chant about impossible things, the worse its going to get.
Catch-22



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2009 11:13AM by The Anticult.

Anticult:

You said: "so anyway, why can't people just put their own thing together, without the baggage and nonsense? "

I think its all about empowerment and what people believe they deserve. If you look at the practice as "just getting stuff" then it lacks all the mystical aspects that attracted people.

Morally, people can relate to things like Karma and life conditions on some level, but the question of whether they deserve to have their wishes answered is the key to understanding this in my mind.

With the SGI/NSA practice the formula was very simple: chant -> change your destiny -> get your stuff. For the NSA/SGI folks in the US, that meant that there was no old-fashioned traditional God getting in your way, telling you you couldn't have the stuff you wanted. In the sixties and seventies it was all about thumbing your nose at "the man" who was telling you "no" and that generation's rebellion against all that. Along comes the Ikeda gang and sells people in this country that simple formula and zoom! Off it goes.

Chanting is like the "Schmoo" (an Al Capp cartoon creation - a little animal that sensed your desires and fulfilled them, if you wanted steak the animal would drop dead on the spot and when you cooked it, it tasted like steak.) By catering to the wish fulfillment part of people's psyche they opened the doors to the influx of members. All the religion did was legitimize the sense of entitlement that had to go along with the wish-fulfillment so that people wouldn't feel too materialistic about wanting to get their "stuff".

I guess, if a person has established a routine in their life that they don't want to change they aren't limited to SGI/NSA to continue with some kind of practice. If you are really ambitious you could compile what you think are the essential aspects into a tailored practice of your own.

Personally, the confusion levels are far too high for me to get drawn back into the quagmire associated with the Japanese practice of Nicihren's buddhism. There is just too little agreement on anything to believe any of it. Sort of like taking sides in the Hatfield/McCoy feud.