Re: Subud
Posted by:
Jupiter
()
Date: September 07, 2009 02:18AM
Oh, and I'd like to point out that I'm okay. Really, I am. It's just a process I'm going through. I'm not reliving the experiences, I'm relieving them. I feel a million times better. It's very hard to explain...
Re: Subud
Posted by:
Lincoln
()
Date: September 09, 2009 07:41PM
Dear Jupiter,
I can understand what you mean by 'relieving' them.( ie. your experiences) It seems to me, that now you are out of Subud you are examining all of your old thought patterns in the light of your new found freedom. It's great to hear you are feeling so much better.
I can see clearly too you harbour no bitterness but a sincere desire to see your family recover as well from Subud's soul destroying effects.
Yes I know what you mean when you talk about God and the image we build for ourselves of Him within the Subud framework. I always thought of Him as a kind of distant mass of molecules sort of directing and guiding everything in a supernatural way. I could never relate to him as a God of love particularly in Subud though. I had been brought up to believe God was a God of love as a catholic however and that kinda stuck and became my default button so to speak.
Becoming a muslim ( a Subud type muslim at least) made it hard to reconcile the God of Islam with the God of Catholicism but in a way they were similar. I could never please or live up to the standards of the Roman Catholic God and the Subud/Muslim God was unreachable or unknowable to me as far as I could experience him. It was only when I heard of the Christian God and what He was like I could relate at last to something that was real to me.
This God told me He was knowable and accessible and it didn't matter that I couldn't live up to His standards because He had made a way out for me to come to Him in spirit and in truth. He had made a way to forgive me for my inadequacies (sins) and cleanse me from them and to empower me to gain victory over them in this life and given me the inestimable promised gift of eternal life with Him. He had made all this possible through His Son Jesus Christ as it was recorded in His Word (the Bible) through His faithful witnesses the apostles in the New Testament and the prophets in the Old testament whose 300 or so prophecies relating to Jesus alone were perfectly fulfilled to the minutest detail.
When I heard this good news my heart rejoiced as I realized the price for my freedom had been paid. I was released from the prison that had held me for my whole life and I came into a new found liberty of spirit I had never experienced before. A greater, far wiser, overflowing with love spirit that has exceeded every expectation I ever had , not always in the way I expected but always for my eternal good.
A spirit that extended grace to me in every situation as it gently led me to see myself as He(God) saw me . A spirit that empowered me to turn away from all falsehood and stay on the path of truth even though I might be led away at times by my own weaknesses this was only to show me things I had never seen in myself before and to turn me from them .
I realized this spirit was the ultimate spirit of love I had been searching for all my life. I could go on and on about this beautiful spirit but this spirit has made Himself known to me as the Spirit of God who is only accessible to mortal men through the Son of God Jesus Christ and faith in Him.
Jesus had himself said this God, His Father, Creator of all things seen and unseen, was only to be found through faith in Him who God had sent, Christ His Son. Faith was the key that had unlocked the door for me. When I was told I could come to the true living God through simple faith and believing prayer I did just that. I knelt down at my bed and asked God to come into my life and as I did I became aware for the first time in my life of someone else there with me in the room and I realized it was God. It was a wonderfully peaceful feeling and so full of joy!
This was the beginning of my walk with this God of perfect love and justice. He has never let me down as I walk in the light of His living word. Everything about Him is wonderful.
Please do not feel I am 'bible bashing' you as I only wish to share with you my experience.
I wish for you all the best the true God wishes for you in your life and pray you will find Him as I have. God Bless you, Jupiter.
I can understand what you mean by 'relieving' them.( ie. your experiences) It seems to me, that now you are out of Subud you are examining all of your old thought patterns in the light of your new found freedom. It's great to hear you are feeling so much better.
I can see clearly too you harbour no bitterness but a sincere desire to see your family recover as well from Subud's soul destroying effects.
Yes I know what you mean when you talk about God and the image we build for ourselves of Him within the Subud framework. I always thought of Him as a kind of distant mass of molecules sort of directing and guiding everything in a supernatural way. I could never relate to him as a God of love particularly in Subud though. I had been brought up to believe God was a God of love as a catholic however and that kinda stuck and became my default button so to speak.
Becoming a muslim ( a Subud type muslim at least) made it hard to reconcile the God of Islam with the God of Catholicism but in a way they were similar. I could never please or live up to the standards of the Roman Catholic God and the Subud/Muslim God was unreachable or unknowable to me as far as I could experience him. It was only when I heard of the Christian God and what He was like I could relate at last to something that was real to me.
This God told me He was knowable and accessible and it didn't matter that I couldn't live up to His standards because He had made a way out for me to come to Him in spirit and in truth. He had made a way to forgive me for my inadequacies (sins) and cleanse me from them and to empower me to gain victory over them in this life and given me the inestimable promised gift of eternal life with Him. He had made all this possible through His Son Jesus Christ as it was recorded in His Word (the Bible) through His faithful witnesses the apostles in the New Testament and the prophets in the Old testament whose 300 or so prophecies relating to Jesus alone were perfectly fulfilled to the minutest detail.
When I heard this good news my heart rejoiced as I realized the price for my freedom had been paid. I was released from the prison that had held me for my whole life and I came into a new found liberty of spirit I had never experienced before. A greater, far wiser, overflowing with love spirit that has exceeded every expectation I ever had , not always in the way I expected but always for my eternal good.
A spirit that extended grace to me in every situation as it gently led me to see myself as He(God) saw me . A spirit that empowered me to turn away from all falsehood and stay on the path of truth even though I might be led away at times by my own weaknesses this was only to show me things I had never seen in myself before and to turn me from them .
I realized this spirit was the ultimate spirit of love I had been searching for all my life. I could go on and on about this beautiful spirit but this spirit has made Himself known to me as the Spirit of God who is only accessible to mortal men through the Son of God Jesus Christ and faith in Him.
Jesus had himself said this God, His Father, Creator of all things seen and unseen, was only to be found through faith in Him who God had sent, Christ His Son. Faith was the key that had unlocked the door for me. When I was told I could come to the true living God through simple faith and believing prayer I did just that. I knelt down at my bed and asked God to come into my life and as I did I became aware for the first time in my life of someone else there with me in the room and I realized it was God. It was a wonderfully peaceful feeling and so full of joy!
This was the beginning of my walk with this God of perfect love and justice. He has never let me down as I walk in the light of His living word. Everything about Him is wonderful.
Please do not feel I am 'bible bashing' you as I only wish to share with you my experience.
I wish for you all the best the true God wishes for you in your life and pray you will find Him as I have. God Bless you, Jupiter.
Re: Subud
Posted by:
Jupiter
()
Date: September 16, 2009 01:50AM
I've reached the end of what I can achieve on here and I thought I should make some closing comments.
I'm not going to apologise for anything I've written in the last three years nor attempt to undermine my own process by standing up and recanting it. But I would like anyone reading to remember that when I started this thread, I was 22 and pretty angry confused and hurt. I'm now 25, and whilst I have regularly oscillated from being okay to being not okay, being calm to being angry, I have really found a true and definite centre in myself that was not there before.
I am not blameless and I am not innocent. I instigated a public fight against Subud by writing here. At first I thought that I was safe and anonymous enough to go through my own recovery process in peace. It's not really surprising that people found this and took offense. I should not have used Subud's name, but I did because at the time I wanted to find other 'survivors'. Had I wanted to remain anonymous and keep my feelings private I should have referred to a nameless cult. If I wanted to address the issue publicly, I should have gone directly to the people involved. I behaved like a coward.
I have written some bitter things about my family, things which didn't end up as anonymous as I hoped. My parents are not bad people. One parent did not hurt me deliberately and in fact raised me very well. One parent was not party to most of what happened to me. The other parent had a lot of problems. Only a small part of the harm caused by that parent was undoubtedly intentional. I said somewhere that nobody in Subud protected me. That was a very, very, very big misrepresentation on my part. People DID protect me, all my life. I had some great friends in Subud. Friends who were so impossibly kind and gentle that it is horrid of me to stand here and say everybody used me or nobody cared. That was really wrong of me.
Still, I have addressed some valid concerns about Subud and I hope they are taken seriously.
One more thing. Years ago, I hurt someone very, very badly. He did nothing to deserve it. I'm really sorry, I was such a brat. I didn't know even half the situation and had no idea the harm it would cause.
I'm going to leave it at that.
I can't help but recall 'The Two Trees' by WB Yeats: [quotations.about.com]
Of course, anyone else wishing / needing to rant about Subud should feel free to do so. But I won't be reading these boards any more.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2009 01:53AM by Jupiter.
I'm not going to apologise for anything I've written in the last three years nor attempt to undermine my own process by standing up and recanting it. But I would like anyone reading to remember that when I started this thread, I was 22 and pretty angry confused and hurt. I'm now 25, and whilst I have regularly oscillated from being okay to being not okay, being calm to being angry, I have really found a true and definite centre in myself that was not there before.
I am not blameless and I am not innocent. I instigated a public fight against Subud by writing here. At first I thought that I was safe and anonymous enough to go through my own recovery process in peace. It's not really surprising that people found this and took offense. I should not have used Subud's name, but I did because at the time I wanted to find other 'survivors'. Had I wanted to remain anonymous and keep my feelings private I should have referred to a nameless cult. If I wanted to address the issue publicly, I should have gone directly to the people involved. I behaved like a coward.
I have written some bitter things about my family, things which didn't end up as anonymous as I hoped. My parents are not bad people. One parent did not hurt me deliberately and in fact raised me very well. One parent was not party to most of what happened to me. The other parent had a lot of problems. Only a small part of the harm caused by that parent was undoubtedly intentional. I said somewhere that nobody in Subud protected me. That was a very, very, very big misrepresentation on my part. People DID protect me, all my life. I had some great friends in Subud. Friends who were so impossibly kind and gentle that it is horrid of me to stand here and say everybody used me or nobody cared. That was really wrong of me.
Still, I have addressed some valid concerns about Subud and I hope they are taken seriously.
One more thing. Years ago, I hurt someone very, very badly. He did nothing to deserve it. I'm really sorry, I was such a brat. I didn't know even half the situation and had no idea the harm it would cause.
I'm going to leave it at that.
I can't help but recall 'The Two Trees' by WB Yeats: [quotations.about.com]
Of course, anyone else wishing / needing to rant about Subud should feel free to do so. But I won't be reading these boards any more.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2009 01:53AM by Jupiter.
Re: Subud
Posted by:
BES18
()
Date: May 03, 2012 05:54AM
I was around this group through my teenage years. I could never understand it but I would love to know more about it. If I could find out more about it it may help me understand the poeple that where invovled and why they acted the way they did. Would you be interested in talking to me?
Re: Subud
Posted by:
pacifica
()
Date: May 11, 2012 10:22AM
Hi BES18. I don't know if Jupiter replied to your questions, since she stopped visiting. Feel free to contact me via the private messaging available on this forum. I too grew up in Subud.
Re: Subud
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 12, 2012 11:32PM
For some background, there is a memoir by Joyce Colin - Smith entitled
Call No Man Master.
J Bennett was a key person. He was involved with Gurdjieff, then with Ouspensky's group in England. He also propagated Subud, because after Ouspensky died, Bennett tried his hand at many different modalities. So because of this social factor and J Bennett's role, there is an overlap between those persons involved in Gurdjieff/Ouspensky work and with Subud.
The group was taken over by Dr Frances Roles after Ouspensky's death, and met at Cole House. J Bennett had a highly responsible job with a coal company and has his own property at Combe Springs.
Everyone was rather bereft. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky died at this time, and the disciples, accustomed to look to these two powerful yet needy men, tried to find some grounding and also tried to find the sources of the Fourth Way 'system'.
J Bennett and Joyce Colin Smith remained close and Bennett somehow got in contact with an Indonesian, Pak Subud, who taught the latihan. Joyce Colin-Smith participated and described how unsettling the effect could be.
Some found Subud too unsetting, as Joyce did, and left. Others continued it.
What adds to the complexity is that this took place in one of the sectors of the English upper classes. Robert Irwin, who did his undergraduate studies at Merton College Oxford, had funds for travel and a full entree into many social circles, cannot be accused of envy. He went to study with a true Sufi community in Mostagnem Algeria and had the grief of seeing many of his most beloved teachers perscuted and tortured by the FLN.
Looking at the scene in England, he observed, wryly,
"British esotericism in the sixties was dominated by the upper class and the lower class barely got a look in".
(Irwin, Memoirs of a Dervish, p 160)
and again referring to the sixties (relevant because this was the time when Bennett had been sponsoring Subud and it gained entree)
"On the whole the British working man shunned the occult and the esoteric...I met quite a few well - heeled esotericists" (Memoirs of a Dervish, p 208)
He tells us how carefully he was assessed when he showed an interest in the group that included JB Bennett, who in turn later sponsored Subud.
Here is a description of how Robert Irwin, then in his early twenties was carefully vetted when he expressed an interest in meeting what he calls a 'secretive Oupsenkyite society'.
Irwin's impression of JB Bennett
I mention all this about class because Jupiter reported coming from a Subud family, which may indicate they were upper class, per Robert Irwins description.
It would be very difficult to question this because one would have to question not only the tenets of an esoteric belief system but also if one takes ones skepticism far enough to go public as Jupiter did, incur resentment from ones own class for breaking the code of silence and daring to expose matters to the rabble.
And get salt rubbed in by non-U members of Subud who have given their lives to it and whose sacrifice is called into question when someone who is 'U' and born into the upper ranks of Subud, to which outsiders crave and aspire, instead says, "I found it was not worth it."
So its not only Subud; its its complex links to the British class sytem if one is examining the scene in the UK.
Call No Man Master.
J Bennett was a key person. He was involved with Gurdjieff, then with Ouspensky's group in England. He also propagated Subud, because after Ouspensky died, Bennett tried his hand at many different modalities. So because of this social factor and J Bennett's role, there is an overlap between those persons involved in Gurdjieff/Ouspensky work and with Subud.
The group was taken over by Dr Frances Roles after Ouspensky's death, and met at Cole House. J Bennett had a highly responsible job with a coal company and has his own property at Combe Springs.
Everyone was rather bereft. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky died at this time, and the disciples, accustomed to look to these two powerful yet needy men, tried to find some grounding and also tried to find the sources of the Fourth Way 'system'.
J Bennett and Joyce Colin Smith remained close and Bennett somehow got in contact with an Indonesian, Pak Subud, who taught the latihan. Joyce Colin-Smith participated and described how unsettling the effect could be.
Some found Subud too unsetting, as Joyce did, and left. Others continued it.
What adds to the complexity is that this took place in one of the sectors of the English upper classes. Robert Irwin, who did his undergraduate studies at Merton College Oxford, had funds for travel and a full entree into many social circles, cannot be accused of envy. He went to study with a true Sufi community in Mostagnem Algeria and had the grief of seeing many of his most beloved teachers perscuted and tortured by the FLN.
Looking at the scene in England, he observed, wryly,
"British esotericism in the sixties was dominated by the upper class and the lower class barely got a look in".
(Irwin, Memoirs of a Dervish, p 160)
and again referring to the sixties (relevant because this was the time when Bennett had been sponsoring Subud and it gained entree)
"On the whole the British working man shunned the occult and the esoteric...I met quite a few well - heeled esotericists" (Memoirs of a Dervish, p 208)
He tells us how carefully he was assessed when he showed an interest in the group that included JB Bennett, who in turn later sponsored Subud.
Here is a description of how Robert Irwin, then in his early twenties was carefully vetted when he expressed an interest in meeting what he calls a 'secretive Oupsenkyite society'.
Quote
I wandered into Rafiq Bulent's Oriental bookshop and coversation with the proprietor led on to an introduction to a junior representative of a secretive Ouspenskyite Study Group. He met me outside the London Planetarium and, as we walked through Regents Park on a bright clear day, he cross - questioned me about my background and the seriousness of my motives. As he did so, I began to get some notion of the people he represented, who were mostly smart and wealthy. In the sixties esotericism was popular among members of the upper class.
"After this vetting, I was vetted again by Dr Rolles (Joyce Colin - Smith spells the name 'Roles') a former disciple of Ouspenksy before I was permitted to attend a Mevlevi dervish ritual performed by Westerners somewhere in the Barons Court area.
(Irwin who later became proficient in Arabic studies, tells us that the dances at Konya are performed for the tourists. The real Mevlevis are exiles in Syria and Cyprus.)
Memoirs of a Dervish. 155-156
Irwin's impression of JB Bennett
Quote
I met J G Bennett several times at Shereborne House in the Cotswalds. He dressed in tweeds. By then in his seventies, he was balding and a little vague, and he seemed to doze off when anyone except himself was holding forth. But his eyes were those of a mad Indian Army colonel, or like the falcon Cully in TH White's novel, THe Once and Future King.
Frequent experiences of finding himself out of his body had persuaded Bennett that there was more to the universe than conventional understanding allowed. He had met Gurdjieff in Istanbul after the First World War and he was eventually appointed to be his deputy in Britain and later his literary executor. Later in life he successively indiscriminately embraced Subud, Transcendental Meditation, Idries Shah's version of Sufism, and, ultimately Catholicism. Pages 210--212
I mention all this about class because Jupiter reported coming from a Subud family, which may indicate they were upper class, per Robert Irwins description.
It would be very difficult to question this because one would have to question not only the tenets of an esoteric belief system but also if one takes ones skepticism far enough to go public as Jupiter did, incur resentment from ones own class for breaking the code of silence and daring to expose matters to the rabble.
And get salt rubbed in by non-U members of Subud who have given their lives to it and whose sacrifice is called into question when someone who is 'U' and born into the upper ranks of Subud, to which outsiders crave and aspire, instead says, "I found it was not worth it."
So its not only Subud; its its complex links to the British class sytem if one is examining the scene in the UK.
Re: Subud
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: May 12, 2012 11:52PM
Note, if I remember correctly, after Ouspensky died, there was some tension between the group led by Roles, at Cole House, London, and Bennett's group.
Bennett tried different modalities and thus was the one involved in bringing in Pak Subud.
Anyone wanting to research Subud will be following Bennett and his social group and its pattern of friendships, alliances and marriages.
Roles continued to try and keep the Fourth Way legacy going at Cole House, in London. He didnt approve of Subud.
There was some tension between the two groups. Joyce Colin-Smith managed to stay on friendly terms with both groups.
She was one of the very earliest to get involved with Mahahrishi Mahesh Yogi. In his salad days, MMY was scooting 'round London. Roles took him up, thinking perhaps MMY could lead them to the source of the Fourth Way.
MMY tried to get access to the wealth and resources of Cole House. Roles caught on and took firm control, and forced people to choose between following him vs following MMY.
Joyce Colin Smith follwed MMY and was his secretary. In a few years MMY hit the big time when he got hold of the Beatles. Years of following his methods left her in a near lethal depression and she lost ability to do what she had earned her living doing-she lost her ability to write novels. Other creative persons noted they no longer had interest in the artistic modalities that they once had loved to do.
Note: In the United States, a young Werner Erhard, later to create his own manipulative seminar weekends, researched all available modalities and in Northern California, participated in Subud latihans, whilst sampling all options.
This is mentioned in Werner Erhard: Transformation of a Man by Bartley. It is a hagiographic biography written by a fervent disciple.
Corboy Note: For record, I was neutral about Subud. But after witnessing the cruel and patronizing bullying that Jupiter endured, here on RR.com and elsewhere in cyberspace, I decided Subud was a nasty outfit with an elitist stench.
Comment - can be ignored if one prefers.
(Call No Man Master by Joyce Colin - Smith. A good resource for tracing social ties and chronologies. The author serially followed authoritarian charismatic male leaders, never questioning why, and retained a faith in magical thinking that made it impossible for her to see other sources of causality. It added to her suffering when a friend died that she believed he had died under a curse incurred because of his research. Her friends illness was medical and there was no satisfactory treatment in those days. TO believe in curses and magic adds to suffering because this causes obsessions to become re-iefied and introduces a dread into life that is a horrible burden.)
Bennett tried different modalities and thus was the one involved in bringing in Pak Subud.
Anyone wanting to research Subud will be following Bennett and his social group and its pattern of friendships, alliances and marriages.
Roles continued to try and keep the Fourth Way legacy going at Cole House, in London. He didnt approve of Subud.
There was some tension between the two groups. Joyce Colin-Smith managed to stay on friendly terms with both groups.
She was one of the very earliest to get involved with Mahahrishi Mahesh Yogi. In his salad days, MMY was scooting 'round London. Roles took him up, thinking perhaps MMY could lead them to the source of the Fourth Way.
MMY tried to get access to the wealth and resources of Cole House. Roles caught on and took firm control, and forced people to choose between following him vs following MMY.
Joyce Colin Smith follwed MMY and was his secretary. In a few years MMY hit the big time when he got hold of the Beatles. Years of following his methods left her in a near lethal depression and she lost ability to do what she had earned her living doing-she lost her ability to write novels. Other creative persons noted they no longer had interest in the artistic modalities that they once had loved to do.
Note: In the United States, a young Werner Erhard, later to create his own manipulative seminar weekends, researched all available modalities and in Northern California, participated in Subud latihans, whilst sampling all options.
This is mentioned in Werner Erhard: Transformation of a Man by Bartley. It is a hagiographic biography written by a fervent disciple.
Corboy Note: For record, I was neutral about Subud. But after witnessing the cruel and patronizing bullying that Jupiter endured, here on RR.com and elsewhere in cyberspace, I decided Subud was a nasty outfit with an elitist stench.
Comment - can be ignored if one prefers.
(Call No Man Master by Joyce Colin - Smith. A good resource for tracing social ties and chronologies. The author serially followed authoritarian charismatic male leaders, never questioning why, and retained a faith in magical thinking that made it impossible for her to see other sources of causality. It added to her suffering when a friend died that she believed he had died under a curse incurred because of his research. Her friends illness was medical and there was no satisfactory treatment in those days. TO believe in curses and magic adds to suffering because this causes obsessions to become re-iefied and introduces a dread into life that is a horrible burden.)
Re: Subud
Posted by:
nigel
()
Date: June 01, 2012 12:14AM
Hi there , I can tell about the early days of subud and bapak when they first arrived in Britain . My parents were students of JG Bennett for several years then Subud arrived on the scene . My father 39,rushed to be one of the first people to be opened into the subud practice of the latihan. This lead directly to his death less than a month later.
This was successfully covered-up . But after all these years Ive been investigating the circumstances and what I can say is that if the truth had come out at the time Bapak ,JG Bennett and my mother would have faced serious charges. And Bennett and Bapak would have been finished . They got away with it and Subud went worldwide and Bennett kind of slowly petered out. I can tell you plenty of this era if your interested.
This was successfully covered-up . But after all these years Ive been investigating the circumstances and what I can say is that if the truth had come out at the time Bapak ,JG Bennett and my mother would have faced serious charges. And Bennett and Bapak would have been finished . They got away with it and Subud went worldwide and Bennett kind of slowly petered out. I can tell you plenty of this era if your interested.
Re: Subud
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 11, 2012 11:28PM
[www.google.com]
[www.google.com]
Quote
Subud Britain | Triodos BankSubud Britain is an international, spiritual association that shares an experience
known as the latihan. It provides an opportunity for people from all religions and ...
www.triodos.co.uk/en/about-triodos/what-we-do/who.../results/?... - 80k - Cached - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Triodos BankSubud Britain. Philosophy of life (Culture). Subud Britain is an international,
spiritual association that shares an experience known as the latihan. It provides
an ...
www.triodos.com/en/about-triodos-bank/know-where.../results/?... - 75k - Cached - Similar pages
SUBUD BRITAIN of EX14 9DB in HONITON DEVONOfficial accounts and financial records of SUBUD BRITAIN ...
www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/ltd/subud-britain - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Triodos BankTerug naar de homepage. Zoek. Service navigatie. Contact & ...
www.triodos.nl/nl/over-triodos-bank/.../resultaten/?projectId... - 77k - Cached - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Banque TriodosMode de vie. La Banque Triodos finance des organisations qui travaillent autour
de valeurs spirituelles, et qui accordent une place centrale à la liberté de ...
www.triodos.be/fr/la-banque-triodos/votre-epargne-a.../resultats/?... - 74k - Cached - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Triodos BankGa rechtstreeks naarNavigatie, invoerveld:zoeken of deinhoud ...
www.triodos.be/nl/over-triodos-bank/breng-uw...in.../resultaten/?... - 72k - Cached - Similar pages
Shield of Faith Ministries | Banque TriodosFil d'Ariane: La Banque Triodos · Suivez votre épargne à la trace · Résultats;
Shield of Faith Ministries. Shield of Faith Ministries. Nous avons également
financé ...
www.triodos.be/fr/la-banque-triodos/votre-epargne-a-la.../resultats/?... - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Triodos BankIr directamente aNavegación principal, ¿No encuentra lo que ...
www.triodos.es/es/conozca-triodos-bank/...de-la.../resultados/?... - 83k - Cached - Similar pages
Subud Britain | Triodos BankDirekt zurservicenavigation, Sucheingabefeld oder dencontent ...
www.triodos.de/de/ueber-triodos/unsere-kreditnehmer/projekte/?... - 74k - Cached - Similar pages
Transforming the world: bringing the New Age into focus272, 331, 333 Subud 48 Sustainable living 219ff Swedenborg. ... 323 Triodos
Bank 224 trivialization 298.302.317.321 Trungpa, Chogyam 52.122,317 Turner.
books.google.com/books?isbn=3039103164
[www.google.com]
Quote
Education Forum :: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious ...Mar 5, 2011 ... Triodos claimed to have severed its formal associations with ... [forum].
culteducation.com/read.php?12,98081,98374#msg-98374 ... and has its origins in
Anthroposophy, the spin off of Theosophy created by Rudolf Steiner.
forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,97823,98443 - 180k - Cached - Similar pages
Mystic Shadows of Colour (2nd Part) | NagaraJun 29, 2010 ... Triodos is Greek for 'threeways': in Steiner's anthroposophy that means ......
Towns and for your excellent comments on culteducation.com website.
nicknakorn.wordpress.com/.../mystic-shadows-of-colour-2nd-part/ - 212k - Cached - Similar pages
Cult Education Forum - ComentariumFeb 5, 2011 ... Cult Education Forum · forum.culteducation.com ... On this page for Triodos bank, a
bank run on the principles of Anthroposophy (a spi... 11 views ...
www.comentarium.com/en_blog-det.jsp?blogID=34787&pg=2 - 37k - Cached - Similar pages
Pseudoscience is not a valid educational choice | Liberal ConspiracyJul 23, 2009 ... Is anthroposophy in a more narrow sense taught at Steiner Waldorf schools? No,
one .... Are you sure Triodos are linked to this stuff, and how heavily? I've just
been ...... [www.culteducation.com] ...
liberalconspiracy.org/.../pseudoscience-is-not-a-valid-educational-choice/ - 249k - Cached - Similar pages
Quote
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
Are you sure Triodos are linked to this stuff, and how heavily?
I’ve just been to look at their website to see what they invest in, and I see they have given a loan to one Steiner school. However, if that’s it, that’s not really a big enough link. Co-op might well do the same thing, given that as far as I’m aware Co-op members only decide what they won’t invest in, not who they will invest in.
I don’t have an account with Triodos as I don’t have anything much in the way of savings and prefer to use a local credit union, but my impression always was that even Co-op and Triodos were likely to invest in some things I’d disapprove of, but either much less than your average bank.
2:16 pm, July 24, 200927. From Germany with love
“Thebee” is the guy who manipulated English wikipedia.
This is why he advertises his work, quote:
“As such it is natural that it gives a clearly twisted picture of Steiner Waldorf education. For a more well founded description, including a survey of research on it, see [en.wikipedia.org] “
2:29 pm, July 24, 200928. Nick Nakorn
Dear Tim,
Indeed, I recently applied to Triodos for some business funding and only found out a few weeks ago, by accident, that it was an Anthroposophical organisation. (By the way, I have no idea if they approved my application or not because they haven’t yet replied, so I’m not a disgruntled customer). Andrew Bibby writes:
” Triodos’s roots (like the UK bank Mercury Provident which it took over in 1995) are in the anthroposophy movement. The term refers to the ideas of the Austrian spiritualist thinker Rudolf Steiner who died in 1925 and whose interests included education, ‘biodynamic’ agriculture, eurythmy (movement as art) and therapeutic medicine. Triodos Bank’s statutes committed it to anthroposophical principles until 1999 when this formal link was dropped, and in recent years the bank under its current head Peter Blom has embarked on a policy of reaching out beyond Steiner adherents and of broadening its appeal. Nevertheless Triodos’s origins are reflected in the fact that most of the Dutch directors come from within anthroposophy, and Triodos continues to be the banker for many Steiner-inspired projects.
The bank describes itself as a ‘transparent bank’ and spells out in detail all the UK ventures in which the bank has given overdrafts or loans in a sixteen-page brochure ‘Inspiring Change’. However Triodos has to overcome something of a problem of transparency in its own structure. Behind the single Triodos brand is a parallel legal structure in the Netherlands: Triodos Bank NV is legally separate from Triodos Holding NV, which operates as an international fund manager, provides microcredit in developing countries, and runs a significant venture capital operation in the Netherlands. The two companies are ultimately both controlled by Foundations, with strong roots in anthroposophy and with overlapping membership. The Bank’s Foundation issues dividend-earning but non-voting ‘depository receipts’ which are held partly by private investors but also by a number of Dutch commercial companies. ”
the above two paragraphs from:
[www.andrewbibby.com]
Last week, I acessed an official page from a Triodos website that explained their anthroposophical position. I note now that it does not seem to come up in searches. I expect it has been removed. But until Triodos publically denounce Steiner as racist mystic nonsense, I would assume that they still have a Steiner agenda. It is most worrying to think that many of the fine and supportable clients have their banking controlled by people who believe in Anthroposophy – it’s the kind of leverage any other religious or political movement would surely love to have.
Best wishes
Nick
2:38 pm, July 24, 200929. Nick Nakorn
Tim,
ok, found a similar page to the one I accessed before:
“Steiner’s philosophy – anthroposophy, or wisdom of the human being – can be applied to many areas of life. Triodos Bank itself has strong anthroposophical roots, but has developed a much broader remit – to support any positive enterprises that benefit people and the environment. Sharing a similar philosophical background makes the relationship between Triodos Bank and Kings Langley that much more special.”
From: [www.triodos.co.uk]
So they let slip that Steiner’s philosophy is at the root and imply that their clients are positive by virtue of similarity – a scarily devious tactic designed to bring many mainstream organisations into the Steiner fold; such as Oxfam, Amnesty International etc.. Has the world gone completely mad? Well, yes.
Best wishes
Nick
2:57 pm, July 24, 200930. Chris
a very interesting site in german:
“Nachrichten aus der Welt der Anthroposophie”
[rudolf-steiner.blogspot.com]
3:00 pm, July 24, 200931. tim f
Thanks, Nick. Interesting and concerning. Delving a bit deeper it looks like some of the health organisations they’ve funded specialise in homeopathy, too.
I’m not sure it puts Triodos completely beyond the pale as they clearly invest in a number of worthy projects and it is possible for savers even at the lowest level to specify what areas they want their money invested in (so if I ever was to open an account with them it’d be clear that neither education nor health should not be one of those areas). I’m not sure what you mean in terms of “leverage” – how could Triodos influence, say, a housing co-op or housing association by lending them money? (Genuine question.)
3:01 pm, July 24, 200932. The Polecat
Paraphrased from a posting on Unity’s MoT…….
thedrone (which I prefer to thebee) is Captain Control Freak of anthroposphy.
thedrone, Sune Nordwall, is a bizarre bloody smorgasbord indeed, with one of the GREAT and unique websites.
It starts with the proud exhortation that he has spent 35 years trying to understand and investigate anthroposophy. 35 years!?!? Highly commendable, old boy. You must be headed for a long-service felted gnome from the incubus of Racist Rudolf the Raving! 35 years fecking years!?!?! 3 minutes was more than enough for my polecat-sized brain to decipher the most concentrated amount of mumbo-jumbo, verbosity, drivel and irrationality dressed up as educational science. Your shite ain’t gonna do any good for educational science, drone. And, drone, I don’t want to get too personal but;you seem to have some serious problems with women (later!). Let me go into a clairvoyant trance;ah, yes….you remind me of the sociopathy of our delusional war-criminal PM, Gordon Brown, an idiot savant with the soul of a nodding Jesus and the wisdom of buffalo bollocks.
Notwithstanding his bonkers website, it seems that Sune is a cyberstalker – redolent with Anthrobabble – with a default position of vexatiousness if he cannot win arguments on forum sites. I gather he appears on sites often under a female guise and stalks anti-Steiner posters (usually women) and posts interminable doctrinal links. thedrone (and/or his legal flea Percy Bratt) then threaten legal bollocks against the site and ALL discussion is terminated and traces of the forum are destroyed. Jolly unsporting, I say!
So, let us raise any number of fingers in salute to thedrone, the idiot savant of Anthros and Anthrobollocks.
Too many children and parents have suffered for too long with this deceptive and dangerous ersatz education. The Anti-Steiner movement is gathering pace and the House of Steiner needs to be razed to the ground!!!
Sharpening my claws and smelling blood
The Polecat
3:34 pm, July 24, 200933. Nick Nakorn
Tim,
If Triodos did not like your criticism of Steiner, they could recall the loan early and put you out of business.
Imagine the world in 10 to 30 years time – peak oil is over and oil is in rapid decline; governments are all in hoc; the banking sector – other than the ethical banking sector – is in terminal meltdown. Being risk-averse, the ethical banking sector becomes The Only Reliable Banking Sector. If a political cult can control banking and thus everyone’s money, you either can be nice to the cult or suffer the consequences.
Conventional banks, wedded to Capitalism and Consumerism do that sort of thing all the time and though they might be just as unethical as Steiner and much more unethical than Triodos (at the moment), they don’t have an insane dead guru at the helm. Adam Smith may have been wrong about a few crucial things, as was Marx, but compared to Steiner they were intellectual giants – compared to most of us come to that.
I was happy being fooled by Triodos – I’ve recommended them to many people over the years. Anthroposophists are intellectually dishonest. Capitalist usually are quite open about their capitalism and so one knows where one stands. The Steiner project is, by contrast, busy denying that it thinks what it thinks.
Hey! found an internal Triodos doc on the net from May this year:
” Information from the Board
Philip Martyn’s tenure comes to an end this year
and he is not seeking reappointment. Over the past
few years, Philip has provided a uk perspective to
the board; personal input that is backed by
consider able banking knowledge and experience.
He has strong ties with anthroposophy, which also
inspired the founders of Triodos Bank, and which
linked him to Mercury Provident Plc, the predecessor
of the uk branch of Triodos Bank. The Board is
very grateful for Philip’s contribution as member of
the Board of saat.:”
From: [www.triodos.co.uk]
Best wishes
Nick
3:36 pm, July 24, 200934. Nick Nakorn
correction
“was NOT happy being fooled” Doh
3:48 pm, July 24, 200935. tim f
Nick,
Good points, and fair enough. At any rate, I would rather have my very limited savings in a Credit Union over Triodos, because that way rather than going to some middle-class person’s pet project (however worthy) my money is likely to be used to assist people on low-incomes in my community & stop them having to visit loansharks on an emergency basis. Plus I think it’s good to have a diversity of ethical & risk-averse financial institutions in the banking sector rather than a couple of big ones.
3:55 pm, July 24, 200936. Shatterface
‘As a Green voter, I’m attempting to do just that through my local Green Party, particularly in reference to Steiner’s racism:’
Enjoying your posts Nick, but as a Green voter how active are you in tackling your own party’s attachment to pseudoscience?
There are many of us with Green sympathies who recognise the party’s contribution to environmentalism and in spearheading the fight against climate change and admire their attempts to move away from hierarchical organisation but find ourselves gasping at their crankier policies (‘alternative’ medicine, objections to genetic research, etc).
Re: Subud
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 11, 2012 11:32PM
Am not sure if this is a separate Subud from the one Bennett started.
Still, want to put these citations here in case others can aid in research.
[www.google.com]
Still, want to put these citations here in case others can aid in research.
[www.google.com]
Quote
GMSS Newsletter March 2006Gunung Mas (meaning Mountain of Gold) is the region of Central ... Ravi is a
Subud member and oil palm plantation ... Triodos (Rudolf Steiner) Bank in
Europe.
old-site.susiladharma.org/images/pdf/gmss-news-03-06.pdf - - Cached - Similar pages
Issue 67Dec 6, 2011 ... AT AUTUMN FAIR 2011 NAG Champa of OF CHOICE Gold Special POS ......
Triodos Bank NV is incorporated under the laws of the Netherlands with ..... Tel:
01239 811155 www.overtherainbowwales.co.uk Subud Hall, Bristol ...
issuu.com/thesparkmagazine/docs/67_for_web - 373k - Cached - Similar pages
[www.cafonline.org] ...... 1 [www.cafonline.org] ......
[www.cafonline.org]
...... .org/charitysearch/Triodos-Foundation/CCRegNo1052958 2011-12-07 daily ...
www.cafonline.org/.../634588379782308860_sitemap_1.xml - Similar pages
BedrijvenbodeExchange Fund Gold Gamma B.V. · Exchange Fund Secur. ...... Stg. Huizenfonds
Subud Utrecht · Stg. Hypo .... Triodos MeesPierson Inv. B.V. · Triple Deal B.V. ...
www.bedrijvenbode.nl/main.php?subcat=671&expand=full&type... - Similar pages
Commissionair in effecten, beleggingsadv - BedrijvenbodeEurop. Fin. Trading B.V. i.o. · Exchange Fund Secur. Gold B.V. · F&C Netherlands
B.V. ...... Stg. Huizenfonds Subud Utrecht ... Triodos MeesPierson Inv. B.V. ...
www.bedrijvenbode.nl/main.php?subcat=6712&expand... - 551k - Cached - Similar pages
After taking a break from - samitar2 nov 2010 ... Subud cult · Pickled sunchokes · Mysql ansi quotes · Randy shroll ...... Lululemon
endeavor · Antique gold buckle rings · Mannetjes varken ...
samitar.blog138.fc2blog.net/page-7.html - 995k - Cached - Similar pages
American - hoo... Gold Miners Shreveport Pirates Ottawa Rough Riders British Columbia Lions
...... of Culinary Art Triodos Bank Sacnoth Inscape Design College PeerMe
Yanjing .... Category:Banks of the Caribbean World Subud Association Category:
Banks ...
hoo.googlecode.com/svn-history/r14/branches/.../WikiOrganizations.lst - Similar pages
Schland Videos - Video Play videoGold Elephant Royal Thai Wellness, Duisburg-Mündelheim; ... Daily Motion
Video ...... Shuly Nathan Sings At Subud Congress Germany 1974. Youtube
Video ... Die Triodos Bank Zu Besuch Beim Waschbär Umweltversand. Youtube
Video ...
www.videooplay.com/tags/schland.html - Similar pages
Quote
[webcache.googleusercontent.com]
This is the html version of the file [old-site.susiladharma.org].
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
Page 1
Page 1 of 1GMSS Newsletter – March 06WelcomeHello everyone and welcome to the new format for our newsletter. This new format reflects the enlarged enterprise team created by signing the Memorandum of Understanding(MOU) between Borneo International, PT Immasdikha and Ravindran Veerasamy (reported last newsletter).A Name from Ibu RahayuThe other important reason for the change offormat is that Ibu Rahayu has given a name forthe project, and eventually, for the foreigninvestment company that is being established inIndonesia to own and operate the palm oilplantation. The name is Gunung Mas SumberSejahtera. Gunung Mas (meaning Mountain of Gold) is theregion of Central Kalimantan in which the palmoil plantation is situated. The name thereforemeans: Gunung Mas Source of Prosperity.We are very grateful to Ibu for this name andhope that we can follow the right path to bringthis enterprise to fruition in a way that benefitsthe people of Kalimantan as well as investors.The Enterprise TeamWe have been asked to provide moreinformation on the GMSS project team. Pak Muchtarudin Siregar1969-88 Head of BAPPENAS, the NationalPlanningbodyinIndonesia;1964-72Researcher, National Institute of Economic &Social Research, Indonesian Institute of Science; 1992–98 Secretary General, Dept of Transport;1980–94 Chairman, PT Indosat; 1995–98Chairman, Garuda Indonesia; 1999–presentChairman, Merpati Nusantara Airlines. He is therecipient of several national and foreign awards.Pak Dikke SiregarRavindran VeerasamyMost recently Ravi held the position of RegionalController for the world’s largest palm oil producer. InJanuary this year, Ravi agreed to act as GeneralManager - Plantations for the Project.Mursalin Newsawmills, agricultural equipment, local materialsconstruction and palm oil technology.Freeman WylliePak Siregar graduated inEconomics from University ofIndonesia in 1963 andcompleted graduate study atChicago, Indiana & Vender-bilt Universities in the USA.Hisdistinguishedcareerincludes:Ravi is a Subud member and oilpalm plantation senior executivewith 23 years experience in thepalm oil industry. His experienceincludes rubber, cocoa and forestryplantations including many years ofplantationmanagementinKalimantan. Freemanholdsdegreesineconomics, arts and education. Asuniversity lecturer and managementconsultant, he has 30 yearsexperience in public and privatesector management including BidManagement, Client Management,Transition & Program Management.Mursalin is an engineer with 25yearsexperienceinruralcommunity projects and small-scaleindustry development in the AsiaPacificregion,micro-hydroelectricity and water supplies, socialforestry & manufacture of portableNewsletter – March 2006What’s the Use of Palm Oil ?See page 3 for a comprehensive list of uses.Dikke is a graduate of RochesterInstitute of Technology in New York(Bachelor of Science in MechanicalEngineering). He is a Director of PTImmasdikha and recently moved toRungan Sari with his family. He andhis staff manage the day-to-dayaffairs of his company’s interests onthe Tumbung Jutuh land proposedfor the plantation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
Page 2 of 2GMSS Newsletter – March 06Since we last wrote …In Search of Microcredit – A Project Brief and Initial Funding Application for USD80,000 has been preparedto assist patchouli smallholders near Rungan Sari. Michael Heaslip from IHEF is assisting by approaching theTriodos (Rudolf Steiner) Bank in Europe. If successful, the funds will provide farmer microcredit and co-opworking capital for the 27-member patchouli oil smallholder co-operative based around Rungan Sari. The co-op has been operating for about three years.Associate Membership of SDI – One of the GMSS project partners, Borneo International, hasbecome an associate member of Susila Dharma International (SDI). Membership will give usaccess to funding and expertise in the social and humanitarian aspects of our project. SDI hasalready assisted us with distributing proposals and in identifying contacts for overseas enquiriesfor assistance.Why the Focus on Smallholders?There are several reasons. Firstly, it is a legal requirement inIndonesia that plantations include asmallholder component. It is there-fore important that this part of ourbusiness is well understood andmanaged. Secondly, an effective smallholdersystem could become an importantaspect of the business’s futuregrowth. In New Guinea, the coffeeindustry has evolved from aplantation model to a moreproductive smallholder model. Thirdly, for environmental, socialand commercial reasons, ourplantation will not be a monoculturethat only grows oil palm. We willintroduce multicropping - a networkof garden plots, fishponds, hydro-ponics, chicken pens, rubber,patchouli and orchards. These willproduce food for local consumptionand export and increase landproductivity.Fourthly, it is part of our Corporateand Social Responsibility (CSR)program to be aware of widercommunity issues. Smallholderdevelopments in palm oil and otheragricultural products, such asrubber and patchouli, are animportant aspect of the Kalimantancommunity and economy.Ravi on the Job – As General Manager, Plantations, Ravi hasalready started work on preparing start-up scenarios andobtaining quotations for survey work and oil palm seeds.Although he does not officially start working with the projectuntil 1 April, this work is central to preparing detailed businessplans. He is currently spending some well-earned time with hiswife and two children in Kuala Lumpur. Funding permitting, wewill be meeting up with Ravi and the team in Kali in April.AppointmenttoRSPOSmallholderTaskforce–Smallholders are responsible for around 40% of planted palm inMalaysia and Indonesia. Due to a lack of training, they are oftenuncompetitive. The Round Table on Sustainable Palm Oil(RSPO) has responded to this issue by establishing a taskforce.Borneo International has been invited to be a member of theTaskforce and submitted a detailed proposal to their firstmeeting held in February. This appointment will keep us up todate with smallholder developments in the industry. Setting up the Foreign Investment Company - The processof establishing the foreign investment company has started inIndonesia. This company will own and operate the plantationand be the vehicle holding member investments. We areworking towards registration in May.Meeting with Investment Banker – At the AustralianCongress, two Subud brothers introduced us to an investmentbanker. He had previously seen our presentation and wasinterested to have further discussions. We spent several hourswith him and have since met with him again in Sydney. Oncewe complete our business plan, he will prepare a proposal tosecure major funding for the project (approx USD56m). Institute Proposal Gets an Airing - We have prepared amore detailed proposal to establish a Sustainable Land UseInstitute. It has been distributed to RSPO, the Biodiversity andAgricultural Commodities Program (BACP) of the InternationalFinance Corporation (part of World Bank), SDI, IHEF, and alsoto contacts within the DOEN Foundation of Japan.Oz Congress and Spirit of Enterprise - Two presentations were givenat the Subud Oz National Congress and one at the Spirit of Enterprisemeeting that followed Congress in January. It was great to share ourstory to date – one year since the official launch of the project at theprevious Australian Congress. The ‘Spirit of Enterprise’ Meeting was organized by the InternationalHuman Enterprise Fund (IHEF) team. IHEF has been set up to fulfillBapak’s wish for a Subud world bank. The meeting allowed us to shareprojects and gain a deeper understanding of what it means to run anenterprise in Subud. A highly recommended experience.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
Page 3 of 3GMSS Newsletter – March 06What’s the Use of Palm Oil ?We are often asked, so here’s theimpressive list:• Cooking oil• Margarine – naturally semi solid (ie nohydrogenation that produces harmfultransfatty acids)• soap, detergent, • candles, • rubber processing, • tin plating • glycerol• presscake for livestock feedAnd then there’s …• oleochemical products – fatty acids,fatty amide, fatty alcohol, methyl ester,metallic soap• biodiesel (less smoke & CO & no SO2) • biolubricant• bioemollient for cosmetics• plasticizer and strengthener for PVCand plastics• bakery shortenings• red palm oil – rich in Vitamin A and E• vanaspati – butter fat (ghee)And there’s more …• palm wine, palm hearts• fronds for thatch, paper• trunks for biomass, particle board• mulch and liquid waste for fertilizer• briquetted charcoal• palm lumberWhat the Markets are Saying…“Mumbai, March 16: Indonesia is all set to overtake Malaysia as the world’s largest producer of palmkernel and palm oil. In the current year, Malaysian palm oil production is expected to drop to 14.8 milliontonne, while Indonesian production is expected to reach 15 million tonne, exceeding Malaysia for the firsttime in history.” (Financial Express, Indonesia)March 15: “IPOs riding on high palm oil prices: Plantation companies are taking advantage of the bullishsentiment over rising crude palm oil (CPO) prices to raise funds in initial public offerings (IPOs).…Shareprices of plantation firms have rallied to outperform the stock market's benchmark index as investors bet onhigher CPO prices.” (Business Times, Malaysia)Biofuels on the move….“High crude oil prices and a European Union-led drive forcleaner and renewable energy have boosted thedevelopment of alternative fuels including ethanol,extracted from corn or sugarcane, and biodiesel, made fromrapeseed, soya or palm oil.Recent interest in biofuels has driven a rally in shares ofMalaysian and Indonesian palm oil plantation companies,sending shares in IOI Corp and Indonesia's Astra AgroLestari to all-time highs. Analysts reckon these plantation stocks stand a goodchance of being re-rated with higher earnings and shareprice forecasts, particularly as the impact of biodiesel onglobal supply and demand for edible oils becomes clearer.”(The Edge Daily, 15 March 2006)Initial Funding Sought The GMSS project is seeking funding of USD 150,000 fromSubud members interested in pioneering the developmentof the palm oil enterprise in Kalimantan. Funds will be used to complete project field and feasibilitystudies, business planning, and the registration of PTGunung Mas Sumber Sejahtera as an Indonesian foreigninvestment company. The Offer Document has been sent to everyone on themailing list and other Subud members around the world. The closing date for applications: Friday 31 March.Want to Contact Us?Mursalin Newmursalin@borneo-international.com+61 2 6677 0089Freeman Wylliefreeman@borneo-international.com+61 2 6677 9457 or 0438 300 450www.borneo-international.comLook forward to hearing from you.
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.