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Re: Subud
Posted by: mxkitty ()
Date: October 08, 2008 01:18AM

In general, people are secretive because they have something to hide. People rarely hide information about activities that are healthy, culturally acceptable, legal, or harmless.

The level of secrecy is another clue. The higher the level of secrecy, the higher the stakes should the secret(s) be outed.

In today's culture the types of activities most commonly hidden are related to:

- sex
- child abuse
- controlled substances
- money laundering
- human trafficking
- bribery for the cooperation of law enforcement
- political corruption (local and otherwise)

We've seen these topics come up over and over again with regard to cults, "new religious movements" and even organized crime. Historically, there has been much overlap between them.

Why should The Group be any different?

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Tootie123 ()
Date: October 08, 2008 10:09PM

As far as Ann Haas's group, there was absolutely no drug trafficking or abuse, sexual abuse, money laundering, bribery for the cooperation of law enforcement, or political corruption. There was no satan worship or ritual. These things were to put it mildly, frowned upon. They were not the problem.

The ideas themselves were not the problem.

The problem was the leader's attitude toward herself. She would say: I MADE YOU EVERYTHING YOU ARE SO YOU OWE ME. Money. Property. She was an heiress. Yet she would take the money of young families when they were just starting out and they needed it.

She would say to the women: I WILL EMPOWER YOU. what she did was weaken the link between husband and wife, and when the woman was by herself she would take her property by saying she was owed it. She was not empowering others. She was empoweing herself.

I have to add, on a different subject, that Subud as it is supposed to be when evil twins don't take it away and do something else to it. is good. Bapak was good. Ann Haas has nothing to do with Subud International. It was something she decided to do herself and I'm not sure it's even legal, since Subud is an organization.. Maybe that's where the secrecy lies.

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Re: Subud
Posted by: mxkitty ()
Date: October 09, 2008 01:00AM

"There WAS no drug trafficking..." etc. Hmm. Why the past tense?

Regardless, regarding the point made here: "Ann Haas has nothing to do with Subud International. It was something she decided to do herself and I'm not sure it's even legal, since Subud is an organization.. Maybe that's where the secrecy lies."

It's legal because of the right to freedom of religion in this country. Subud International isn't a corporation or some such.

But, Alex Horn did the same thing with his 1960s Gurdjieff group, some remnants of which moved into Haas' Subud group. Horn, who is now deceased, had nothing to do with the Gurdjieff Foundation, which seemed to refute Horn as a false teacher. It seems Ann learned the same tactic from Alex; her brand of Subud has nothing to do with Subud International.

How could Ann take someone else's property? That is stealing, which is illegal. What was the mechanism that allowed her to get away with it?

I had no idea Ann was an heiress! That explains how she got the ranch in the first place. From whom did she inherit?

In the book Taking with the Left Hand, Horn's wife in the 1960s was named as "Carol."

Was Ann (maiden name: Burridge) Haas ever known as "Carol", or is this a pseudonym?

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Tootie123 ()
Date: October 09, 2008 04:15AM

Alex Horn did a lot of things that Ann did not continue to do when she started another group without him. Drug trafficking and anything having to do with drugs were against her rules. I assume it is the same way now knowing what I do but my experience is dated. I really dont think she has anything to do with drugs-- that was Alex's thing. That is why I am speaking in past tense. The sexual wierdness was Alex's thing too.

Yes it is illegal to take peoples money and property. But if she convinces people that they owe her, then she can pretty much manipulate them into doing what she wants, voluntarily.

I suppose what she does is not illegal any more than what Alex did was illegal. Sorry. It just makes me mad. It's just that Subud Sonoma sounds a lot like Sonoma Subud (or visa versa) which is in Sebastopol and a whole different thing.

I believe Ann lived in India as a child. Her father was Lord Burridge.

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: December 23, 2008 01:29AM

Ignoring the conspiracy theorists for a while, thanks to Keir, Elias and River Song for your comments.

You know, I LOVED Subud before everything happened. It was two years ago now, I'm not as angry and hurt any more. Before those things happened to me, I hadn't had any bad experiences in Subud either. Until my entire group turned on me, I would sit and have tea with them twice a week. That's my point. Until I did something wrong (and I'm still not sure what that was) everything was fine. It WAS all butterflies and rainbows. How many times have you said, "I'm so grateful to have Subud in my life," - I used to say that all the time. "I'm so grateful to have been born with this."

Then, suddenly, one day, it all turns out to be a great big stinking lie. No, Subud rarely asks for any money except the odd donation here and there to help with hall costs... until someone has an enterprise idea and suddenly your whole home is up as collateral. But that's people's choices, right? I mean, if someone's dumb enough to invest their life savings into a dodgy enterprise... but then, go back to Bapak's talks, and he says over and over and over again that enterprises are essential, that money not invested is a stagnant pool that will harm you, that to make his visions a reality we have to start commercial ventures and generate income. That's why there are Subud owned palm oil plantations and Subud owned gold mines and Subud owned oil fields and Subud owned hotels. Not many, of course, but they're there. Who paid for them? God?? I don't think so...

Too many times have I heard people refute my anti-Subud arguments with, "I've never experienced this," or "this doesn't happen in my group." Many slave owners treated their slaves extremely well, as well as you'd treat your favourite pet. Does that make slavery justifiable? Of course it doesn't.

I. Loved. Subud. I never believed any of the nasty things people said about it when I was in it. Everyone who criticised Subud is denounced as being a slave to their own nafsu, they can't surrender, they're truly stuck. Subud is the greatest gift, the be-all and end-all, it's perfect, of course it is. Nobody who truly follows their latihan can EVER do anyone any harm. Tthe latihan protects you, makes you 'truly' human... if someone else gets offended then they're not truly human. Animal, mineral, vegetable. Some lower force. If someone is upset, it's their fault. Not yours, not Subuds, but theirs. The obliteration of justice.

Just listen to what you're being told, please. Just listen. Hear the words, hear the stories. Can't you hear how crazy it all is?

As I've said many times, I hope what happened to me doesn't happen to any of you. I'm sure that if you just show up week after week, go to youth weekends and get tested in for various positions of power, start an enterprise and go to congress, then you'll be fine. Just make sure you never question some of the basic ideas that Subud is based on, never question any of the talks you read or think about the techniques that are used. Never question just how much your helpers know about you, just how much you've confessed to when you've wanted help. Keep pretending that I'm an isolated incident or even less than that, I mean, heck, I'm probably just making the whole thing up, right?

Right...

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Re: Subud
Posted by: stranger ()
Date: January 13, 2009 07:49AM

More than anything I'm just curious, I was a "student" of Anne Horn, Haas for a very long time, my children grew up in it, and I did not leave until I was in my mid-fifties. I have very strong emotions comcerning my relationship with the women called, Anne Haas, but I chose to "study" with her and it is my karma and responsiblity to figure it all out. I'm wondering who are these people who write here: what do you really know about the late 60's and the 70's? Why did people join "cults"? I deal daily with my grown children regarding "the group", and how it effected their life, and mine...but it is part of my life and I have to deal with those decisions.

Anne Haas is not an evil women, but I do believe that she suffers from mental issues, my guess is that she suffers from a form of Narcissium, but as I am not a therepist, I do not know. Unless you personially knew her you would have no idea of her incredible chrisma. I did believe she "saved" our lives, she rescued us from the 60's and 70's. I was wrong, very wrong! I personally do not want anything more to do with her, and yes, she did make "suggestions" that as it turned out were not in my best interest, nor my childrens, but I did allow her controll of my life, and that was my decision.

There are people still "studying" with her now, but once again that is their choice. My choice is: keep her far away from me!

If you are truly interested in what life was like in this particular "cult", ask me, but please do not rant about things you do not know of or understand.

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Lincoln ()
Date: July 08, 2009 07:46AM

Hi Jupiter, You give a pretty good run down of what Subud is all about, You should get a website up and running and minister to these poor deluded people. I was in Subud for 10 years and went through the same hell getting out of it. Hope youre okay now. Pity youre not still aroound to help others.

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Re: Subud
Posted by: pacifica ()
Date: July 15, 2009 08:49AM

Hi Stranger

I too, as a child of cult members, am very curious as to why people in the 1950s through 1970s fell prey to that kind of thing.

One clue I found is the occurrence of what are called (by serious historians) "great awakenings". These were periods of intense religious ferment, in which many new cults, sects and movements sprang up. Many of the fringe versions of Christianity we know now—such as Mormonism—sprang out of the Third Great Awakening.

The 60s and 70s are sometimes referred to as the Fourth Great Awakening:
[en.wikipedia.org]

Though the wikipedia article describes this as a Christian phenomenon, I think it parallels an importation of Asian religions, due at least in part to the Beat Generation.

One article I saw was that these "awakenings" were not demand driven: i.e. not driven by any kind of "need" on the part of the spiritual market. Rather, they were supply driven: a sudden profusion of spiritual offerings. This seems to be the case with the Indian gurus: they came on their own accord, into a fertile market. Similarly, J G Bennett functioned as an importer and promoter of new spiritual product from the East. Before either, Theosophy was the big importer of (what they claimed to be) Indian religious knowledge.

I think it boils down to: why do people buy anything? And how do they deal with growing evidence that they have bought an extremely expensive lemon?

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Andrew Hall ()
Date: July 17, 2009 11:10PM

Hello to Pacifica and Jupiter. (I've already posted to Lincoln in another thread)

I am a Subud member (16 years) who feels the latihan is very worthwhile but wants the Subud organization to take a look at and reform it's culture that encourages and results in tragic results like you have experienced.

I plan to attend the Subud World Congress next January and would like to host a woprkshop on "Why are some Subud youth calling themselves survivors of a cult?"

I would like to start this workshop with the sobering and awful stories that I piece together from reading your postings on this website. Then, I want the discussion that follows to be a respectful and searching sharing of what has gone wrong in Subud.

Are you willing to write your stories, or allow me to use quotes from your postings at this workshop?

Thanks for considering this.

Andrew Hall
Ottawa, Canada

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Re: Subud
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: July 19, 2009 04:34AM

Hi Andrew,

Well, I felt the same as you before things got really bad and I felt that I had to absolutely leave Subud. In no instance had it ever seriously occurred to me that Subud was a cult until I left and the widespread similarities between Subud behaviours and standard cult behaviours became apparent. I had help from a number of organisations who specifically deal with cult survivors. Subud is well known to all of those organisations and appears on every official list of known and potentially dangerous cults. This doesn't mean that Subud is necessarily dangerous, but it is deemed to have the potential to be so.

One of the groups who helped me on leaving Subud held a conference entitled "Second Generation Cult Survivors" and asked me to give them a talk on my experiences in Subud. I will tell you exactly what I told them.

It wouldn't take five minutes for Subud members to work out who I am from the details of my writing. I already know the identity of at least three people on this thread from their writing alone and whilst ordinary Subud members wouldn't come across this unless they were specifically looking up information on Subud as a cult (or perhaps that the link was passed to them by some concerned bystander), but a workshop at probably one of the largest World Congresses in Subud history would make me uncomfortable.

When you ask the question in which your workshop is titled (Why are some Subud youth calling themselves survivors of a cult?) I would like you to respectfully keep in mind that I have lost my friends, my family, my home, my livelihood, and ALL of my ambitions to Subud. There is not one single part of my life that has not been affected. Since I have not been affected alone, I would feel uncomfortable at the thought of my story being related to at Christchurch where people who knew me personally: friends, ex-group members, or even my own family, may sign up for such an emotive workshop just for the opportunity of getting angry at anyone who dare descry Subud (I've been in similar workshops before). I would be distressed to think how easily I may be identified and the backlash which may occur. All my family are still in Subud as are the vast majority of people I spent years holding in high regard.

I started posting on this board because I was scared and in pain NOT because I wanted to bring down Subud. Perhaps I have been insensitive in that regard and too eager to name events and pinpoint failings in others. I have love and respect for many of my friends and perhaps that doesn't come across when I post, but I actually miss everyone a great deal and it is a constant source of pain for me that they hate me because I left Subud.

I didn't give that talk in London even though I could have reached a lot of people and generated a lot of media interest. I didn't give that talk because of a mix of mingled fear of backlash combined with the tenderness for many of my ex-friends, many of whom helped me through some terrible periods of my life. I know all too well the real passions of Subud members who truly believe the Latihan is saving their lives as they speak. As strong as my own emotions are against the whole organisation, that anger is not directed at any one group or person or circumstance. If you were quoting from my writing in a workshop that mingling hate and tenderness could never come across. I think I would be reduced to a mere caricature - some angry internet nobody making preposterous claims, and not a real woman who has to look at several hundred scars every day that were a result of her self-hatred at being 'blessed' with the Latihan and Subud.

There are too many people who are in my story, who are also in Subud, for me to permit any kind of public reading of it at such a huge gathering at Christchurch. The sheer unknown of it - the outside possibility of having people I either loved or hated sneering and discrediting my own experiences is too much to bear. I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between posting on a quiet internet forum for support from people who have experienced the same thing, and having those experiences read out in a group of those very same people who caused that harm in the first place and who are very unlikely to want to take much responsibility for the suffering I've been through. Indeed I have never seen anyone take ANY responsibility for the feelings of another beyond the natural responsibility of the helpers. Whatever someone suffers, it is natural enough to accuse him or her of bringing it on their own head and not being surrendered enough. I gave a public address of my unhappiness at Subud once before and I didn't exactly experience much empathy for my own feelings.

Still, if you drop me a private message with your e-mail address, I would be happy to write a short summary of my experiences as a third-generation Subud child, a brief explanation of my reasons for leaving and the exact reasons in which I justify my claims that Subud is a cult. I would be happy for you to use something like that as it is less frightening for me than having my life be used as an example in a conversation where I am not present to defend myself.

I don't mean any disrespect by my refusal and, as I say, I would be happy for you to use a summary written exclusively for that purpose. Of course, if other people are happy for you to use their replies in any of the threads on this board, that is their choice and, even if I started the thread, I will have no grounds to oppose it.

Hope you understand my position,

Jupiter.

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