Who owns the church property that we as members of The Church of the Living Word attended and tithed to cover the finances that were involved?

Aren't we ALL questioning that right now? Hargrave and other resigned leaders have not been transparent.

I think most of agree that we think the corporate re-structuring with out the people's vote or even prayer or knowledge may be unscrupulous. We do not know- we demand answers but nothing is given to us.

We believe that the church property belongs to the people not any person. We are unsure if Hargrave and Holbrook will take off with church property. ( Forum memembers feel free to reply is I failed to write what most of us are concerned about.)

Don't Hargrave and Holbrook and former The Church of the Living Word leaders ( now named Living Word Fellowship) have lawyers that can give us the correct answers instead of leaving us guess?

Since I have no answers I googled some possible answers.

Quote
Jackson Sun

Who owns the property of a local church? The courts usually have answered this question on the basis of what church body has the last word in official decisions in the church in question.

There are some messy examples in this newspaper article. [www.jacksonsun.com]


I found some enlightening related articles that are too good to not share - how many points look all too familiar to the WAlk, TLW or LWF?


Nine Warning Signs Your Pastor is Building His Own Kingdom [www.stevehackman.net]

How Pastors Get Rich [www.cultwatch.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2019 03:10AM by NancyB.

This from 'Apostle Dog' back in December of 2015:

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Apostle Dog
Date: December 03, 2015

I wasn't going to post for a while, as it seems like new people show up when i don't hog the forum so much, but I am fascinated in this hell hole slave operated sawmill. By the way, KBoy, when you took your shirt off and faced your natural aversion to blood and did what you did for your friend, bound his wounds, you showed your friend more love than a year's worth of apostolic impartation by the laying on of hands. You are much to be commended, you might have helped along that miracle, and it might well have been exactly that of him recovering so quickly.

I am fascinated because I learned from my short stint at the "kingdom business" and the stories of the shabby antics of the "shepherds" that ran that various other non prophet/for profit business enterprises around Living Word Fellowship. The treachery involved, including what happened to the brother with the electrical business, a case where a good man was run down and driven to suicide. See, I was a union man all of my life. I never liked it when anybody is not paid fairly for a day's work. To think that the church that I believed in so much would have run such a ratty business, I would like to know exactly what John Robert himself thought about that racket and who made a profit on it. I have heard lately about people working on his properties without pay. I know that this sort of thing is the exact thing that I hate so much, have hated all my life and had I known about it at the time I would have come against this crap with all I had.
The more I learn the more I am convinced that JRS himself was not ANYWHERE NEAR what I thought he was. He may not have deserved any respect at all, and he may not even have been an innocent but ignorant bystander to all of this abuse that I was willing to think he was.

I would be interested in hearing tales from Impact, that is the kingdom business that my Dad served. Any further info would be great.

Hi Tknc,
I knew Bob--at least during the last portion of his life. But I never asked him about Impact, and didn't know anyone who worked for the company. Maybe someone will come forward and fill in some blanks.
P.s. I did know he was greatly distressed regarding a personal tax liability that was well over a $100,000 before he passed.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds about right.
>
> Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John
> Robert Stevens
> Posted by: Tmason
> Date: July 06, 2018
>
> larry bobo Wrote:
> Those who have served on church corporations
> know that the Bylaws clearly state that the
> Apostolic Fathering Ministries have final say on
> what happens to church properties. The rest of the
> corporate members do all the leg work, but have no
> decision making power as far as asset ownership is
> concerned.
>
> Reepicheep wrote:
> Yes, that is my memory too, Larry. And if the
> church ministries didn't want the church to be
> sold, stronger coercive tactics would probably be
> used next. However, G&M made the decisions and
> received the money, regardless.
>
> I have read the articles of formation for (the)
> Church of the Living Word, APCO (no public info
> available) and its subordinate churches. Any
> church that agrees to become part of TLW gives ALL
> property to the living word. In a laughable use of
> words it also reads that none of the proceeds will
> enure to the benefit of any person.


How do find out the answers? Do you figure out how to hire a lawyer for a class action suit? or is every location different?

Most everyone would assume that the voting assembly of the congregation owns its real estate, buildings, and equipment. For many congregations that’s true. But some Baptist and Pentecostal church property is owned directly by the pastor and his family.

Quote
Time of Grace Blog

I keep researching - I know full well that I won't find the answer- I'n not a lawyer. I did find something interesting having to do with change in philosophy when one local church broke away.

We have seen a distinctive change in believes which concerns us. I am wondering if this is arguable in court?

Quote
Time of Grace Blog

Courts have struggled with adjudicating church property disputes ever since the republic began. Decisions come down according to one of three philosophies:

"Favoring whichever group is closest to the founding beliefs and principles of the organization. Although originally the preferred philosophy, this has proven to be almost impossible to determine and isn’t much considered today.
A “deferential” philosophy that favors hierarchies and “defers” to them. TEC is arguing this philosophy.
A “neutral principles” philosophy that tries to take no sides in ideology and favors the organization’s votes.
This won’t be over for a long time. In fact, it may never be over. Christians will probably be fighting over properties until the end of time. It invites the question: When a denomination shifts its theology or practice (as in ordination of women or gay people), is that new theology binding on all congregational leaders and members?

[www.timeofgrace.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2019 05:08AM by NancyB.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Onion
Date: April 11, 2019

Money from Bob's memorial went to the APCO travel? Why? That's such a load of crap that Bob would have wanted that. When Bob was treated like the off scouring of the earth for so many years as MAGNIFIED by what Gary said from the pulpit that he thought it was a case of Bob committing suicide because he didn't have discipline and was addicted to pain meds. Bob was leaving behind 4 kids. One of them was only 14 years old and trust me, not one penny from any offering was ever given to those kids by the church. Bob had a lot of problems that I know he came by honestly because of the family he was raised in which by the way includes me. But Gary drank so much he should have had stock in Johnny Walker and he lied and stole from the congregants in the churches with not a backward glance. How does he like being remembered for what was wrong with him and all of his wrongdoing rather than every acknowledging something he may have done right. Bob McClane had nothing because he gave everything to JRS and they drove Impact into the gutter during JRS' divorce.

Tknc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would be interested in hearing tales from
> Impact, that is the kingdom business that my Dad
> served. Any further info would be great.

According to this post, TMason worked there at one point. He hasn't posted for some time, however.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Tmason
Date: July 11, 2018

I remember stacking and sorting bristles at IMPACT. Actually fun and interesting work when your choice was detasle corn, weed the bean field, work at the sawmill or stuff chickens into crates for shipment. In the absence of monetary remuneration (John needed the money more than me) I got all these memories and relationships with you folks.

This brief post by Puddington back in Feb of 2017 mentions Impact.

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: puddington ()
Date: February 01, 2017

Regarding Bob M, who we all loved dearly. I recall hearing that Gary tried to take Impact away from him. Sort of an "apostolic take-over". And that once Gary was in the driver's seat he ran the company into the ground. Not sure how accurate this is.

But I've heard of Gary taking over several "kingdom businesses" and really making a mess of them. Seems to be a pattern there. Perhaps he doesn't have good business sense. Greg G must have to rescue him often.

Who recalls a past post alleging $200 bottles of wine charged on church credit cards? ( I was not there- so I don't)

Guess what I found? a Microsoft Word doc on Local Church Treasury Handbook m-it is Not the handbook TLW. i wonder if such handbook exists on what you can charge as a church expense.
Quote below are just a few things a pastor can NOT deduct as a church expense.

I think we should ask for Hargraves, rick Holbrooks other leaders' expense accounts, don't you?
Really how much do you think the donations we were pushed to give to pay off church credit cards were mis-used along with a million other things?

How about some transparency Gary Hargrave?

Quote
MS Local Church Handbook

Examples of Improper Reimbursement Items***

-Meals with friends at which church matters are discussed
=Spouse’s travel under most circumstances

-Vacations (including trip to Holy Land)
-Books to plan vacation to Holy Land

-Tickets to attend the play “Joseph and His Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat”
=Expenditures (e.g., travel, books, phone calls) to research a book or article
Continuing education primarily for personal improvement
-A computer used primarily by family
****Alcohol, even as an item on a receipt for a business meal

-Expenditures related to a private business or generating income from a non-church source

[ntcumc.org]

NancyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who recalls a past post alleging $200 bottles of
> wine charged on church credit cards?

Wow