Puddington and corboy:

) What proportion of people in LW were also
> attending the back room meetings? Probably only
> 10%
>
> 2) Were these back room meetings generally known
> about, or secret? Only known to those invited
>
> 3) What did a member have to do before he or she
> was allowed or invited to attend these back room
> meetings> Worked at the LW building, Blix house or
> be an elder in good standing with Marilyn
>
> 4)Did back room participants have to keep any
> secrets? Absolutely


Just adding my 2 cents.

I'm not sure if Personal Ministries Sessions would be the same as meetings, but I used to log some of these sessions.

The first rule was: NO TALKING. What you hear, you forget!

You were to be like a machine, nothing more. You were to quote what was said, you could not summarize. You typed up your notes and gave them to Morene. They were sent to a half a dozen people; Blix, JRS, Marilyn, Morene, a few others. That was it. These sessions were also recorded.

From what I remember -- and I don't remember much -- many times they would be pastors with problems with their church or personal problems. JRS could be there or not. Sometimes it was a couple of pastors, sometimes several. There was always a definite sense of secrecy around any of these sessions.

If JRS was there, I don't think anyone else gave input. If they did, it would only to be say something like they confirmed what JRS said.

As far as how many sessions like this occurred? Who knows.

As far as regrets. I do remember certain things that were decided -- very, very personal things -- and sometimes the people directly involved were not present when decisions were made. One such case was a pregnant, single, young girl. It was decided the baby should be placed for adoption. I don't know if it was her decision or not. I don't know if the father had any input. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I don't know. I just know that it's not something I've ever forgotten.

From Rachel Bernstein's list:

9. Is there only lateral growth of the individual resulting in continued
immaturity?

This is valuable,

A disciple is not the same as an inmate.

It is a bad sign when a group of adults continually gaze at a leader
the same way a gun dog looks up to its owner.

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm wondering if TheycalledmeJonah has any more
> recent examples of TLWF leaders or members being
> pushed out of the group because they asked too
> many questions or crossed the wrong person?
>
> Since many have already seen how the same
> strategies were used by JRS/G&M to rid themselves
> of people who had become noncompliant in some way,
> it would behoove members and and leaders alike to
> learn from history rather than continually repeat
> it.


This whole thread is so interesting to me. It has got me thinking about other pastors who left and I didn't know why. And, of course, I never asked. This is a side of the Walk I didn't know about at the time. I knew about conflicts with the Bickharts and remembering being told that L. Makuakane was not a good guy and was "killing" JRS. I'm now seeing a bigger picture.

Years after I left, my mom sent me a small book by Francis Frangipane called the Jezebel Spirit. She thought I might be interested. Francis talks about Marilyn in it. I understood then why he left. Or maybe he was asked to leave. So many others.

I know Brent Finney has been mentioned before. I'm assuming his situation must have been similar to others. After the Finneys' son was born, I remember that JRS had named him. Not uncommon for people to ask JRS to name their children. I saw the Finneys shortly after that. They told me they decided to change their son's name and not use the name JRS had given him. That was the last time I saw the Finneys.

I was surprised reading about Gruenberg. From what I understand, and I could be wrong, but he's still a part of the church.

Gruenberg is still very much involved with the church. He teaches worship and music classes for Shiloh U. He still goes to the LA church.

Kbyrne and TheycalledmeJonah, the incident that NickleandDimed mentioned regarding the Honolulu church and Craig Gruenberg happened in the 80's. I don't believe he has been a principal pastor since then, but has remained very involved, especially in the worship.

I'm interested in the experiences you shared, kbyrne. I think that most or all of the members of TLWF have either received back room ministry or been the subject of discussion between ministries meeting privately at some point. It's kind of creepy looking back.

Which leads me to corboy's question about lateral growth. I think most people that spent any amount of time in the fellowship believed that they were growing by listening to the sermons and reading the literature. For men, they might be set aside or set in as elders or deacons. Women didn't seem to expect to have an official designation. Sometimes elders' or pastors' wives were included in various meetings or oversight, especially in recent years. But nobody ever outgrew the need to ask for confirmation. No member in good standing could choose a mate or change jobs or move to a different location without first seeking "the word of the Lord". This would usually be done by the person writing a letter to whoever was their shepherd. The ministries got back to them when they got back to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2018 02:11AM by Reepicheep.

kbyrne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I was surprised reading about Gruenberg. From
> what I understand, and I could be wrong, but he's
> still a part of the church.


Hi kbyrne...I recall reading on Facnet that at one point Craig left the cult and later came back and was restored....whatever that means. I don't know if that info is accurate. However, Craig and Carol divorced. Craig married Myra I forget her last name but she was one time married to Tim Skully (I think that was his last name); they were assistant pastors of the Santa Barbara Church under Paul Young. Carol became a midwife for a while and then later ran kind of b&b in Hawaii. I do recall hearing second hand that while Craig and Carol pastored the Honolulu Church they lived in a very expensive area and expensive house. Not that there is anything wrong with that. The interesting thing to me about Craig is once he was a golden boy in the Walk. JRS praised him....called him a real lifewire....and gave Craig an assignment to write kingdom music. Again I heard this second hand, that whenever Craig would submit his songs to JRS, the response was it wasn't "anointed" kingdom music. Apparently JRS had been privy to hearing kingdom music. Craig was very talented and bright and it's so sad that he has spent his life chained up in a little cult. Another who left around the time or right before the Big Trip were Lee Bailey from Colorado. I recall hearing the reaction of his wife was, "Yeah, we can celebrate Christmas." I remember telling you about David Cokas and his church but I don't remember if I told you that when I checked out David's webpage a few years ago, there was a recorded message (sermon) by Finney as a guest speaker.

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm interested in the experiences you shared,
> kbyrne. I think that most or all of the members of
> TLWF have either received back room ministry or
> been the subject of discussion between ministries
> meeting privately at some point. It's kind of
> creepy looking back.
>
> Which leads me to corboy's question about lateral
> growth. I think most people that spent any amount
> of time in the fellowship believed that they were
> growing by listening to the sermons and reading
> the literature. For men, they might be set aside
> or set in as elders or deacons. Women didn't seem
> to expect to have an official designation.
> Sometimes elders' or pastors' wives were included
> in various meetings or oversight, especially in
> recent years. But nobody ever outgrew the need to
> ask for confirmation. No member in good standing
> could choose a mate or change jobs or move to a
> different location without first seeking "the word
> of the Lord". This would usually be done by the
> person writing a letter to whoever was their
> shepherd. The ministries got back to them when
> they got back to them.

I remember when my neighbor moved into a communal apt next to the one I lived in. He told me he was scheduled to get a check out from JRS to work at the lw bldg and he was nervous about what if JRS revealed something embarrassing about him. I jokingly told him to fall to the floor and pretend you were slain in the spirit. Well, during his check out JRS asked him if he was a homosexual. My neighbor said yes and JRS asked him if he wanted JRS to do his voodoo on him. Okay voodoo probably wasn't the word JRS used but you know what I mean. Any way my new neighbor seemed satisfied with the ministry he received from JRS. After reading kbyrne's post about how all the personal ministry was typed up, shared, and probably archived for years, I wondered how or if it impacted members' lives years later when G&M conducted their purges.

Reepicheep said, "Nobody ever outgrew the need to ask for confirmation." Yes, very creepy indeed.

lily rose Wrote:
____________________________
> After reading
> kbyrne's post about how all the personal ministry
> was typed up, shared, and probably archived for
> years, I wondered how or if it impacted members'
> lives years later when G&M conducted their purges.

Now there's a horrible thought, lily rose! Those typed up notes were called comm slips. And yes, I believe copies were stored in files in LA and/or Shiloh. I hope it didn't play any part in getting people to sign non-disclosure agreements. (Did you all know about that?) How would you like to read all that garbage? I can only hope that at some point it was all shredded and is not still out there somewhere.

Oh, by the way, sometime in the 90's, people in the churches were told to write down everything about themselves, embarrassing or not, and give it to the pastor. I believe we were all given a set of questions to answer. I wonder where all THAT is?

9. Is there only lateral growth of the individual resulting in continued immaturity?

Within TLWF, looking for direction from the leadership is considered a mark of maturity. After all, Jesus only did the things he saw his Father doing. Jesus was also very clear about calling no man father – “You have one Father, and He is in heaven.” From a professional viewpoint – and I spent a couple of years of counseling with a psychologist driving this point home – it promotes immaturity. My homework was to make decisions on my own, without any outside input, and learn from the consequences of those decisions – good and bad.

It was sad how difficult this was for me to do. Very often, we learn more from our mistakes than the things we do correctly. It is important to the maturity process to be free to make mistakes without jeopardizing your close relationships. Conditional love is abusive. It was an exercise I should have done in my late teens or early twenties – not mid-forties. I matured more in those couple of years than the previous thirty. I’ve had several others tell me they went through the same experience.

I would suggest we know very little about our personal spirituality and relationships with others until we are free to choose. Typically, relationships with prison guards and other inmates are not very life giving. They are not a true example of what life on the outside is like. The problem we all face is “Siting in the Cage With the Door Open” as John would say. Well, that and flinching when someone wants us to bend over.