Thank you Reepicheep, lily, and Cloudwatcher. Woodrow Nichol's book on the Walk is so crammed with information. I often forget the information. Such was the case with 1979. And the leader changes. I wonder how many at the time. Who were demoted even knew about the 34 changes. I went back to read about it. And what was sickening to me. The reports that while the changes were happening. John was still saying stuff like, "I think I have broken through." The video link from Cloudwatcher is really worth watching. When I was on the fence. About leaving. That video would have really. Spoken to me.

I was an elder in Des Moines when Fred Bickhart was sent there. Comm Central was located upstairs in the building next to the church. Although he did come and check things out, nothing really came of it, and he barely attended any services. It seemed more of a family squabble with John and Dad Stevens. I remember thinking that he really did not want to be there and we were not privy to the specifics. Vere Thomas, who had been given oversight of Comm Central, was sent on a long world tour. By the time he returned, he no longer had a say in the operations of the church.

Vere had built the Des Moines church from scratch, which was different than many of the other local churches. He received no financial benefit from the sale of the building or from a residential property that had been given to him personally. A group of five men corporately took over the local church and set out all ministries, including Vere. This took place during the period of struggle between Shiloh and the local churches, as well as the violent intercession era. Supposedly, everything had been cleared through Comm West, but John would later say he knew nothing about it. Somewhere in the mix, something was not above board. My dad was one of the associate pastors that was removed and he and my mom chose to no longer have anything to do with TLWF.

I was also set out as an elder, but chose to remain in the church. Although I traveled a lot to Shiloh, and was very involved in the intercession, the whole thing did not feel right to me – and I said so. It was my first introduction to what happens when you disagree with the leadership. I was later “restored” and would serve on the advisory council because Apco knew I would speak up if I saw something amiss – the very thing I was removed for. (40 years later, I’m still speaking up about what I think is amiss.) It seems so bizarre to me now, having a reference point of how other churches function. Those evil denominations provide a safety net where an individual cannot take the assets of a church. Someday, the light will shine on Hargrave Family Ministries and all will be able to “follow the money”.

Larry, it's so interesting hearing about what happened in Des Moines. Was Vere Thomas sent elsewhere, or was he just cut loose entirely? I didn't know that Vere and Mahota were sent on a long world tour to get them out of the way. Fred and Eva were also sent on a long world tour for the same purpose. I believe that a common dismissal during that time went something like, "Thank you for your service. Now go away."

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>Someday, the light will shine on Hargrave
> Family Ministries and all will be able to “follow
> the money”.

Yes sir.

Cloudwatcher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> larry bobo Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Someday, the light will shine on Hargrave
> > Family Ministries and all will be able to
> “follow
> > the money”.
>
> Yes sir.

Yes. I always found it peculiar that Hargrave Family Ministries was established over a year before John's death. What was/is it's purpose? Since Gary was either in the midst of a divorce, and perhaps it was finalized, who--besides Gary, was part of this "family"?
BTW, in regard to Statton, he received a "word" prior to the ministry that declared him unfit to serve as South Gate pastor, to move to Phoenix. He related to it as an act of banishment. One day, when I was visiting him at his home (rental--adjacent to G &) he noted that the gate between the properties was now being kept shut by G & M. He intimated it was a sign that he was in trouble. He, of course, was right. Anyway, I spent a couple years under his bombastic, but generally well-intentioned shepherding, and during that time we literally went on a crusade to fix up the South Gate church "for Marilyn." Between the services (6 a week) and work days (one week night and Saturdays)-I spent considerable time there. When the facility was eventually sold--approximately a year after I left--I heard the proceeds went into Marilyn's trust fund. If anyone reading this knows otherwise, please say so. From my recollection, during the seven years I spent in South Gate, G & M seldom visited the place. After Statton left, and new (presumably, more loyal) leadership took over, I do recall them showing up one day to check out the condition of the facility...which was followed by a service that night.

Vere and Mahota visited places like South Africa. They were not cut loose, but there was much speculation about the role they would play when they returned. There was an obvious effort to get them out of the way. Des Moines was very similar to Washington, IA in that although John certainly had influence, he was not the primary builder. The court decided Dad Stevens should end up with the church in Washington, not John. There were legitimate legal claims Dad Stevens put forth, and not just an attack from Satan, as we were led to believe. I know the corporation in Palmer Lake was set up so that the Apostolic Fathers (Gary and Marilyn) had final say on what would happen to the assets of the corporation.

We were told that they did not want another fiasco like happened in Washington to happen again. If they were going to be responsible, they wanted full ownership of all the churches. On the surface, and if you trust them, it makes sense. However, if things were to go south, they could pocket everything and nobody could stop them. That’s the way a wolf sets things up, not a true shepherd. The local church should belong to the local people, and no single person should be able to take everything – especially someone who lives thousands of miles away and has very little skin in the game. “You local people fix it all up, we’ll sell it, and then you can give the money to us – Oh, because you love Marilyn.” For how many local churches that have been closed down has this been the narrative?

I would suggest that TLWF has never had legitimate leadership where the followers could have a reference point to distinguish between good and bad fruit. If TLWF were not isolated from the rest of the Body, the leadership would lose control. A true leader serves, not controls – they lay down their life for the sheep, not fleece them. People belong to God, not to a manipulating individual. You should be looking for what you can give to others, not what you can get from them. You should also not allow a wolf to take advantage of your heart to give to God. That’s why they are called thieves – they take what does not belong to them.

We constantly heard the evils of denominationalism preached, and I would suspect it was more about John’s excommunication and his refusal to have any personal accountability than what he led us to believe. It’s interesting that he demanded more control over others than any group I’ve come across, and yet he answered to no one himself. He also demanded complete control of all finances. None of that would happen in a denomination – you have to answer to a group of people who are looking out for God’s interests as well as the interests of the people. Also, you don’t get to tell everyone else that you are God and must be obeyed. They may just take you out of circulation and not allow you to minister to God’s people any longer. Didn't they do that to John? Perhaps they had more of a revelation of John’s prophetic ministry than we thought!

For those of you that have been out of the mainstream Christianity loop for a while, we constantly have pastors from various churches teaching at our local church. It’s nothing like it was fifty years ago. You no longer burn in hell if you attend a different church than another believer – well, except for cults like TLWF and the Catholic Church. But then, you know how the tares who leave the truth start talking to each other, when they formerly would have nothing to do with each other. Wait, where have I heard that before? :)

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Vere had built the Des Moines church from scratch,
> which was different than many of the other local
> churches. He received no financial benefit from
> the sale of the building or from a residential
> property that had been given to him personally. A
> group of five men corporately took over the local
> church and set out all ministries, including Vere.
> This took place during the period of struggle
> between Shiloh and the local churches, as well as
> the violent intercession era. Supposedly,
> everything had been cleared through Comm West, but
> John would later say he knew nothing about it.
> Somewhere in the mix, something was not above
> board. My dad was one of the associate pastors
> that was removed and he and my mom chose to no
> longer have anything to do with TLWF.
>
Considering most members at the time thought the LW was God, to have 5 men come in and take over the church and set out all ministries must have been traumatic for the congregation. Were reasons even given to the congregation? I remember that FCSLC wrote of similar events at Salt Lake City. It had to have been a painful time for the sheep. Thanks for talking about it Larry. I think it's healthy to get all this history out there before the LW tries to rewrite it.

I recall thinking how cool it was when the Bickharts and "family" of JRS visited the Valley Church and received ministry. I loved those people...especially Dad Stevens.

Changedagain, your question about who besides Gary was part of his "family?" is such a good question. It seems Gary was already speaking into existence and making arrangements for his future family with M.

Lily wrote:
>Changedagain, your question about who besides Gary was part of his "family?" is >such a good question. It seems Gary was already speaking into existence and >making arrangements for his future family with M.

Yes, I think so.

larry bobo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We constantly heard the evils of denominationalism
> preached, and I would suspect it was more about
> John’s excommunication and his refusal to have any
> personal accountability than what he led us to
> believe. It’s interesting that he demanded more
> control over others than any group I’ve come
> across, and yet he answered to no one himself. He
> also demanded complete control of all finances.
> None of that would happen in a denomination – you
> have to answer to a group of people who are
> looking out for God’s interests as well as the
> interests of the people. Also, you don’t get to
> tell everyone else that you are God and must be
> obeyed. They may just take you out of circulation
> and not allow you to minister to God’s people any
> longer. Didn't they do that to John? Perhaps
> they had more of a revelation of John’s prophetic
> ministry than we thought!

Larry, you make some good points about church ownership and governance. I've been thinking about this lately. If and when I ever become involved in a church again (shudder), I think that it should not be either an independent church or a privately owned one. I might consider a denominational church for the reasons you mentioned.

Changedagain, I believe that Dan Statton may have also had the law offices taken from his oversight before he was removed from South Gate. In light of all the dirty tricks from the Big Trip era being revealed here on this message board, it seems that the same playbook has been used again and again in TLWF. It might be titled, How To Dump Leaders Who Know Too Much.

Reepicheep Wrote:

> Changedagain, I believe that Dan Statton may have
> also had the law offices taken from his oversight
> before he was removed from South Gate. In light of
> all the dirty tricks from the Big Trip era being
> revealed here on this message board, it seems that
> the same playbook has been used again and again in
> TLWF. It might be titled, How To Dump Leaders
> Who Know Too Much.

Really. If you represent a threat of any kind, you're done!