lilly rose – Actually, we are saying the same thing about conditional love – it’s really not love at all. I don’t know if you can even evaluate relationships in TLWF until both parties are no longer under the control of the leadership. When you are finally free, you find out what is really in your heart for another person. I would suggest that this is also true for God. He gives every man a free will – something those who pretend to be Him do not do. Jesus was constantly saying, “If any man …” It was not mandatory - unless you wanted to be his disciple.

Most of us would say we were in TLWF for a walk with God – it was even called “The Walk”. When you finally have nobody around you helping or hindering that goal, you find out how much is really in you and how much you were just being carried along by others. Unfortunately, it’s much more difficult to walk with Him in a wounded state where you want nothing at all to do with any type of religion. The real God can bring healing to our hearts and help us to our feet again, if we will trust Him. For anyone reading this, I would suggest simply asking Him for help – He’s always listening and knows way more about what we need than we could possibly ever understand. He is so compassionate towards the wounded – even if your shepherd is not. If we look for another human to take the place of God again, we’ll end up having to take another lap around the mountain – no fun at all.

As you study mind control, you’ll see that those who use it plant phobias that have no basis in critical thinking. You can’t reason your way out of a phobia – you just involuntarily react. The conscious mind is bypassed and the subconscious mind is planted with various fears. To accomplish this, followers are put into a suggestive state – the “worship” of TLWF is a perfect example – and then anything can be planted in the subconscious mind by the leader. We thought we were just opening our spirits in preparation for the word when in fact we were basically being hypnotized to believe anything.

Fear of Satan and demons is probably the number one thing used by Bible cults to control their followers. “If you don’t follow me and stay under my protection, the boogey man will get you!” The truth is: “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” If you resist Satan, he will flee from you. You actually begin to look for dark places that need light when you get a glimpse of the truth, instead of hiding in fear. Darkness is dispelled by light. Perhaps the second most common thing is all the destructive things that will happen to you if you leave the cult. The truth is that things will get better, not worse, if you are taking healthy steps.

I think what’s going to really upset the apple cart is when we come to the realization that John knew what he was doing all along and it was quite unethical at best. Worst of all, it was done without our knowledge or consent. Much of the warfare and confusion we faced in TLWF was because we were dabbling in the occult in a way that God forbids. The early church burned their occult books – not studied them for SOP ideas. We were giving Satan access that he normally would not have had.

Yes, it is hard to call out sacred cows even when you think they have done harm. "It is quite common for many devotees to regard their former leader as paternal, all good, or god like. This same phenomenon is found in battered women and in children who are abused by their parents. Demystifying the guru's power is part of the psyche-educational process needed to fully recover." I think that's what you/we are doing (demystifying) when talking about mind control and hypnosis.

And think about it....the really great thing is we can talk about it here on this message board; however, if you are still in the fellowship, odds are you cannot talk about it to anyone. Thanks Larry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2016 03:31PM by lily rose.

LARRY BOBO:

Many insightful statements, one of the most important being:

"You actually begin to look for dark places that need light when you get a glimpse of the truth, instead of hiding in fear. Darkness is dispelled by light."

MISSION


Our
MISSION

is to LIGHT up
areas of darkness

within
one another

The cherry on top was:

"The early church burned their occult books – not studied them for SOP ideas."

LILY ROSE:

I found your reference to Dickens and Emerson to be of great interest regarding the Prodigal Parable, since I reference it regularly in discussions, but not as being the greatest short story ever written (which it could very well be), but of being the plumbline of what Jesus actually taught, with one caveat.

My exit from the fellowship took me directly to the very thing we were warned about from the pulpit--do NOT go to seminary (i.e. do not engage in Biblical scholarship studies), for it will undermine your faith. I did not enroll officially, but immersed myself for some time in early church history, Biblical formulation, etc.--all very nasty stuff.

It is here that we have parted ways previously (and probably with Larry), and it is not my intention to bang that gong again, but to merely reference the Prodigal Parable within the context of my discoveries, the most important of which was the part about the moping older brother TACKED ON AT THE END, which is not found in the earliest manuscripts--no doubt, poetic license taken by some zealous scribe long ago who thought the story needed a different emphasis.

When you remove that part of the parable and return to the ORIGINAL version (not found in the Bible), the story then takes on a completely different emphasis; placing our entire experience as humans in an insane world entirely on us, and removing the onus of that experience from GOD entirely. That is the greatest story ever told.

It corrects entirely our understanding of GOD, not as some sadistic deity who created fallible creatures knowing they would fail, and then send them to do penance in an insane world. Instead, it paints a picture of GOD who honors the choices of FREE WILL sons, however misguided, but does NOT hold them accountable for 'momentary insanity', but instead CELEBRATES their return to SANITY by throwing a party. That's what GOD is really like, unlike the 'fire & brimstone' portrayed on a daily basis in many places.

If you are so led, you may also want to poke your nose into studies relative to the Gospel of Thomas, now acknowledged by scholars to be the most accurate representation of what Jesus actually taught. (It sounds more Buddhist than Christian.) Even here, unfortunately, 30% of the sayings are spurious, but that was the nature of things at the time they were written. Word-of-mouth transmissions had an insidious way of 'exaggerating' the truth until they were finally put to papyrus.

The Prodigal Parable (minus the moping older brother) stands as a beacon of all that Jesus actually taught, something very few understood at the time, and still do not understand to this day. It bears little or no resemblance to Judaism and is almost entirely lost in Christianity--a topic most Christians would reject outright.

kBOY – I took a very similar journey, and it is very true that if you research both the Old and New Testaments you will find many discrepancies, especially in translations. If you are after the perfect doctrine, I think you may end up in confusion. If you really want to know Him, I think you will find that there is enough intact of Jesus’ words to find your way to Him - if you are willing to actually do what He said, not just study it. Jesus said, ”You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.” We all have the Prodigal Son in us, and until we reach the end of ourselves, we don’t really understand how much we need Him and how good He really is. I would have titled it “The Good Father” instead. He doesn’t love us because we are good, He loves us because He is good. He will always run to meet us when we come to our senses and come home.

I appreciate that kBoy has shined a spotlight on forgiveness/love and the Prodigal Son and that Larry has shined a spotlight on not just studying but putting into practice and shining a spotlight on how mind control works. These insights and discussions have been very encouraging to me in my recovery journey.

kBOY wrote: “It corrects entirely our understanding of GOD, not as some sadistic deity who created fallible creatures knowing they would fail, and then send them to do penance in an insane world. Instead, it paints a picture of GOD who honors the choices of FREE WILL sons, however misguided, but does NOT hold them accountable for 'momentary insanity', but instead CELEBRATES their return to SANITY by throwing a party. That's what GOD is really like, unlike the 'fire & brimstone' portrayed on a daily basis in many places.”

------------------------

Wikipedia: “Marcion of Sinope was an important leader in early Christianity. His theology rejected the deity described in the Hebrew Scriptures and in distinction affirmed the Father of Christ as the true God. The Church Fathers denounced Marcion, and he chose to separate himself from the proto-orthodox church. He published the earliest extant fixed collection of New Testament books, making him an important figure in the development of the New Testament canon.”

I wonder if Marcion knew about using the Prodigal Parable as a concrete way to scripturally redefine the Nature of the Father and perhaps sway the entire course of the proto-orthodox church? A fixation on the Prodigal Parable might have spared us the Dark Ages and innumerable hellfire, brimstone and obedience sermons.

LILY ROSE:

HAPPY to be of any assistance, in spite of any differences to the contrary.


L.B.:

I fully concur that an ACTUAL relationship with the DIVINE can occur, in spite of the doctrinal conflicts that both the Bible and Christianity represent. I merely chose a route with fewer impediments.

I like your suggestion of "The Good Father", but it would not have had the same impact in ticket sales.


FCSLC:

Agree with your Marcion scenario, but as we know, the early church was a pretty big mess. It was the more powerful who won out, not the most SPIRITUAL.

TLW version of 'fire & brimstone' was definitely the 'obedience' version, but with the same consequences--a more 'kindler & gentler' form of 'blessed judgment'.

kboy,

I commend you for the biblical scholarship research and study you did. I took a look at the Gospel of Thomas and yes as you said some scholars, not all, find it accurate. I am familiar with the Jesus Seminar and I also took a look at the Christianity and Bible criticisms of Bart Ehrman but I didn't find his arguments compelling or persuasive. I think things happened very differently than he sees them. And among Bible scholars I found much disagreement and dissention. Yes, Ehrman has an audience but also many scholars hold views contrary to his. My conclusion is this, modern bible scholarship in NOT the truth about the Bible. Rather, it is the truth about a certain way of looking at the Bible. Scholars can help us understand the historical context, in the end their opinions regarding the divine origin of the Bible are just their opinions.

I don't care if posters have uncomplimentary views of Christianity, Christians or the Bible and I don't care if posters are believers or not believers. What I do care about is being respectful of our diverse beliefs and how we express ourselves on this message board about our personal beliefs. Sometimes, posters are harsh on Christians, Christianity, and those who believe in the Bible and I would only ask that posters soften that expression on this message board. I think your contribution to this forum in speaking out about cult abuse has been valuable in informing the public and TLW.

LILY ROSE:

Thank you for a very thoughful response.

It's funny you bring up Bart Ehrman. A close friend of mine was a classmate of Bart's at Princeton Theological Seminary, and witnessed some of the transitions he was undergoing back then, from being an 'on-fire' Evangelical Christian, to what is now either an agnostic or atheist (can't remember which)--the very thing JRS warned about from the pulpit on more than one occasion. In fact, our friendship began over a two-hour discussion about how he was able to go to seminary and NOT lose his faith, which at this point, is very progressive with regards to fundamentalist ideology.

The unfortunate result of Bart's transition is that his discoveries caused him to lose his way, where with myself, helped me to find mine. Bart's big 'problem with God' is the issue of suffering, and how could a loving God allow so much suffering if he was loving. If he only understood what Jesus was really saying in the Prodigal Parable, where the onus for this experience is in our court, not GOD's, he would see himself clear of the problem entirely. With all of the material he has written over the years, I did not find him to give much credence to the Gospel of Thomas, which I found very ironic. There are statements in that Gospel that even quantum physics finally caught up with, e.g. "You have mirages for your rulers.", or as Einstein so aptly stated, our experience of the universe is nothing more than a 'convincing, collective, optical delusion'.

All that said, Christianity has a long way to go to catch up with what Jesus was actually teaching. It is no surprise that the ignorant and unlearned disciples had to repeatedly hear, "I have many things to tell you, but you are not yet able to bear them."