No, I hadn't heard anything about that, Lily.
Frankly, even if a video did finally surface, showing conclusively that it was John's intent to commission these two over this mess, I mean TLWF, and John appeared lucid and uncoerced at the time of the commissioning...I would simply consider it a colossal mistake on his part. Their personalities, especially together, are far too merciless to put that many lives at their whim. We've witnessed the results. What a shame.



lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Changedagain, did you attend the Unfolding that
> was held in San Diego? From what I have read, much
> bad blood among the brothers began there and
> continued maybe due to ambition and who would be
> greatest (have the most power). So that when Gary
> took over there was an absence of support for him.
> Possibly some of the brothers left because of
> that.
>
> The friend I mentioned previously (regarding his
> arranged marriage) told me that he thought the
> commission of G&M was questionable and my friend
> thought it was a coup, a power grab. Also, I
> remember reading on factnet that Larry Cotton was
> to have been part of the commission mantle with
> G&M. If that info is accurate, I think Larry would
> have added a balance to the mantle. Do you know
> anything about that?

I do not believe there was any video of John Robert Stevens commissioning Marilyn over anything. If there was a video, she would have shown it rather than just tell us that she was going to show it, and then not. I think what happened is JRS did commission Hargrave ove the California churches, he did that during the unfolding in SanDiago. I think some people were for Marilyn because after all, she was bonded with the apostle to the Kingdom through marriage, and some were for Hargrave, so they just did a complete power play that ended all dispute, they got married. end of story.

Changedagain, on one of your old posts, you said: BTW, a very short list of ministries who I felt were treated dishonorably by G & M were Bob McClane, Dan Statton, John Miller and Mike Shermerhorn.
In Bob's case, I found out about his death when Gary announced it during a church service. He labeled him a spiritual failure, and chastised those that knew Bob for not looking out after his health.

I talked with Mike Shirmerhorn quite a bit on the phone, and last time I saw him in person was at the meeting at the Valley Church I went to right after JRS died. I was wondering what happend with him, also Dan Statton, you were saying they were treated dishonerably. I know mostly what happened with John Miller. I didn't know Bob McClane. Could you elaborate some on that.

As far as how each one was treated dishonorably, much of it had to do with what I thought were sound scriptural principles...not applied when dealing with them. In general, when individuals, regardless of position, put years of their life on the line, I believe they should be treated with some respect when they are pushed, I mean, choose to head out the door. This was not the case with these men. I would rather not go into too much detail, since it might trigger another migraine and ruin what is usually a serene Sunday (since I left TLWF).

Note: as a clarification of the previous post, the leadership is careful not to reject someone outright, and force them to leave the fellowship. They just make the environment surrounding this person so inhospitable and callous (in the name of not providing sympathy and allowing the 'dealings of the Lord' to run its course) that the person's decision to leave is a very natural one. I suppose if you have a deeply masochistic nature, or actually believe it is God putting you through this, you can persevere for years in this culture of 'extremely conditional love.' Normal people can not.

Apostle Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Changedagain, on one of your old posts, you said:
> BTW, a very short list of ministries who I felt
> were treated dishonorably by G & M were Bob
> McClane, Dan Statton, John Miller and Mike
> Shermerhorn.
> In Bob's case, I found out about his death when
> Gary announced it during a church service. He
> labeled him a spiritual failure, and chastised
> those that knew Bob for not looking out after his
> health.
>
> I talked with Mike Shirmerhorn quite a bit on the
> phone, and last time I saw him in person was at
> the meeting at the Valley Church I went to right
> after JRS died. I was wondering what happend with
> him, also Dan Statton, you were saying they were
> treated dishonerably. I know mostly what happened
> with John Miller. I didn't know Bob McClane. Could
> you elaborate some on that.

----------------------------------------------

I can understand why changedagain doesn't want to go there. I'll post based on what I have read on this forum and factnet. Anyone, feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

Bob McClain ran a kingdom business called Impact. I believe APCO told Bob to close it down. It think that probably broke Bob's heart. Bob didn't leave the church.

I think Dan Statton and his wife were told by G&M to split up and Dan was pushed out of pastoring the southgate church. I think Dan left the church but possibly came back later. Dan as an attorney probably had good critical thinking skills, but it goes to show that when you drink the kool aid critical thinking skills go out the window.

I don't know Mike's situation.

Also, check out the 2/5/14 posts by invisible and changedagain and the 8/16/13 post.

If I ever get involved with a church that is not right there in my own town, I am going to make it a point to travel out there and see for myself what it is really like. Living Word was never as cultish as all that in my part of the country. I was in it for 7 years, but if I saw most of what I have heard about here, I would have been in about 7 minutes. That's how long it took me after I saw marilyn, about 7 minutes.

One thing I have been thinking about. I recall John Robert Stevens talking about a "movement without leaders." That didn't happen. Perhaps that is just a pipe dream. I don't know if JRS even meant what he said, if he really wanted such a movement or not. I do think that if I were in charge, if I had of been elected to do the job of Gary and Marilyn, I don't know that it would have turned out any better. Where they seem to be control freaks, I would have been the opposite. I am more of a libertarian, which would probably work out to be almost an anarchist. I don't know that form of church government would be any better, as far as the effectiveness of the church. I know the "sheep" would do what they pleased, they would not answer to any "shepherd." I THINK JRS leaned the other way, and let the "shepherds" have full reign to do whatever they pleased as opposed to my way, which would be letting the "sheep" do whatever they please. There is no real balance with either philosophy.

ONE other thing. My observations, according to what I have heard from JRS himself in the tapes, and from what I have observed in Marilyn in person, and from what I have heard from reliable sources, I don't think John Robert Stevens was quite as totalitarian as the Hargraves, but I do think he must have leaned that way or he would A- have never married Marilyn, and B- would not have set up Hargrave over the California churches. That said, I think the Living Word became twice the cult it ever was about the time that Marilyn snagged JRS. That could have been while he was married to Martha, it could have been after the divorce, she could have been the reason for the divorce, just as she was with Gary Hargrave.

The comparison of shepherds and sheep is a valid comparison, that is the comparison that Jesus used. However, it is not a perfect comparison, only the best one. Human (sheep) are not dumb animals, they are not going to walk right off of a cliff. Not if they are focused on the THE Shepherd, they will not walk off a cliff because He will not lead them off of a cliff. Jesus said “MY sheep hear MY voice, and a stranger they will not follow.” If people are led by some human that sets himself or herself over them, if they will follow such a perverted example of THE Shepherd, then they are not interested in following Christ in the first place. Sad but true.

One of Christ’s sheep does not need a dictator. One of Christ’s sheep might need guidance for a little while, but not for the many years that Living Word Fellowship lord’s it over the “sheep.” There comes a time when Christ’s people, when the children of God stand up and make decisions of their own, and most of the time, the “shepherds” don’t think they are ready to make their own decisions because they are enjoying ruling over them. They don’t want to turn loose because they feel that if they turn loose that “sheep” will go out on their own and grow and even out minister them. That is what John Stevens said, that the sheep will out minister the shepherds, but John Stevens had the cart before the horse. He believed the younger generation was ready to rule over the older, that is all but him, nobody was going to rule over the apostle to the kingdom. Nobody. But as for the older shepherds that had been with him for many years, and for the wife of his youth as well, well they all had to go. It was time for the younger to displace the older, why, because the younger knew how to pay lip-service to the apostle, they knew how to make him feel good, and that is what counted. He set the younger over the older, because he knew that the older were mature enough to live without him, but the younger were so immature that it insured that the apostle to the Kingdom was going to be in charge for now on. He might have even thought he would be in charge forever, because at that point he might have believed that he would rule instead of Christ, that Christ would come forth in the many membered body ONLY, and that of course, meant that the apostle of the kingdom would rule over the body. He made one mistake though, no matter how much violent intercession anybody wants to instigate for themselves, when that ole grim reaper sticks in the sickle, you gotta go, why, because we are appointed one time to die, and then after that, comes the judgement.