Changedagain, FCSLC, and Paleface,

Thanks for your welcome and for your best wishes for healing.

So: here are a few thoughts, in no particular order. It is weird how I did not fit in with any social group before I entered the Walk, and how I didn't fit in with any group (really) when I was in the Walk. I am unsure how to make sense of it all, except that the comraderie which I thought I had with some in the Walk (and definitely knew I lacked with others) evaporated upon my departure. It was the lack of love and compassion in the Walk which, for me, made me question the Living Word and its supposed power the most.

And then I found that for the handful of people who I knew had left, we had the comraderie of anger. All our conversation revolved around venting over our Walk injuries. But, if we decided to figure out another basis for our relationship, it was elusive. With one exception, all the blowouts I knew personally after I left are no longer my friends. All this to say, my recovery has been largely limited in scope to my family and one or two other "blowouts" which we know.

I sympathize with the folks on this forum who must explore elements of Walk theology to make sense of the dysfunctional relationships which emerged. I took a radical path in this exploration: I went to grad school in philosophy. I specialized in the theory of knowledge, and applied it to the domain of religious knowledge. Although I finished a PhD in political science and am now doing fairly well in my teaching and publications, I retained two MAs in Philosophy along the way. That pursuit of education, which was so demeaned in the Walk, was part of my "healthy agency."

All this to say, I don't claim to have reached "healthy agency" altogether. However, the need for an apostle or a designated relationship or a sense that I have or want the "revelation" is happily long gone.

poliscigrad:

Everyone has there own path and works things out in their own way.

Venting anger about group or leader that burnt you is not a bad thing and fairly normal. Each person moves on in whatever way works for them.

Regarding education, the best education regarding groups like "The Walk" is very focused education about destructive cults and the specific ways they use coercive persuasion and influence techniques to manipulate and control people.

Much research is available about this and I have included it in my book "Cults Inside Out: How People Get In and Can Get Out." There are more than 1,200 research footnotes, and 18-page bibliography and 15 page index.

See [www.amazon.com]

Allow me to back up and say I appreciate all the posts on this site. Combing through the theology is important. I feel like many of the hooks placed into us were buried in the semantics of the literature we all cherished. There is absolutely a place for re-examing the foundations and motives behind the words that we were conditioned to treasure unconditionally.
I don't want to downplay that, but I want to emphasize that the LW that you all walked out of has no history outside of here and factnet, (and there were a lot of fakes on factnet). That history is being rewritten by domains that are paid to show up in Google searches. TLW is continuing to poison youth, and those warning signs that you all noticed are getting buried further as you read this in the Summer Camp services.

Thank you, Moderator, for your remarks and recommendation.

To Changedagain and Paleface,

I agree that the introduction of "designated relationships" after JRS died was one of the most intrusive and destructive dynamics I experienced. For me, healthy agency is about reclaiming the boundaries of self, and along with it acknowledging that I do not exist *for* anyone else. I am an end in myself, and my wife and kids are individually ends in themselves, and individually we are intrinsically valuable.

Poliscigrad, could you please describe the toll the LWF did to your kids? They must have been quite young. If you are ok with talking about it. I think the kids that were raised in it have different issues than those that chose to join.

Paleface,

My oldest child was born in late 1989, and they are a lot like me: a circle in a square world. Their first two or three years seemed perfect. Lots of CLW folks babysat them, and it seemed that they were showered with love from all corners. The weirdness began when they were enrolled in Pre-K and Kindergarten in Centers of Learning. I learned many years afterwards that they experienced a great deal of body shaming by teachers and classmates. I also learned that there were sexual advances made on her by classmates. I'll admit, this can be child's play in one sense of the term, but kids act out what they see grown-ups doing. It speaks to the larger dysfunction in the church at the time.

When I left in 1995, it took another year for my wife to figure out that she wanted to leave, too. That was another year for my oldest at CoL, but it was during this year that Pam Rice's husband died, and that caused significant instability in the Kindergarten class. When my wife finally left, our family was shunned, and my oldest was overnight without any friends. On top of it, we had just had our second child, I had significant anger issues that spilled over into my family relations, and my wife had to find a new job. That revolutionary change in our family life produced an instability such that my oldest has been diagnosed with one or more personality disorders and my youngest (who does not remember TLWF, thankfully) has borne the brunt of our dysfunction until recently.

All that to say, while I do not regret at all leaving CLW, our family continues to pay for our past involvement. I have kept my marriage together, and I have kept my kids with me. We are dedicated to healing together. But, I do not forsee a time where my oldest is free from their disorders. Their condition is my fault because I am responsible for staying when I should have left (even though I understand the power of coercive persuasion). It's the sins of the father being visited upon children.

Poliscigrad - Perhaps it isn’t so much the “sins of the father” as much as it is the sperm of the father. : ) Psychologists talk about nature versus nurture. For example, a child is born autistic. His environment does not make him autistic. But I have to believe the environment can help or hinder the situation. You might not have had much choice here. It’s just how the DNA turned out. Just an idea. I’m certainly not defending the LW here. If a child was born with certain personality problems, the LW environment probably would not be a good place to be or grow up in.

I know for me, there is baggage I had from being young, prior to joining the walk. In fact, this baggage probably made the LW more attractive to me. If I was more of an emotionally healthy kid, I probably would never have joined the fellowship. Who knows? The LW was (and is) certainly a magnet for the lame, halt and broken people. And the LW does a terrible job of healing the broken. Or protecting them. There are problems in the fellowship where young children are not taught about what is appropriate behavior. Such as what is OK touching and what is not-OK touching. This leaves them open and vulnerable to sexual abuse. G&M do not want to deal with it. At least not out in the open where it might appear they are admitting that there is a problem. Better to keep it quiet and sweep it under the rug. Maybe this is why the Pope wanted to meet Gary. To learn how to do this better. : )

Paleface,

Thanks for your kind words, but I wish it were just or mostly my DNA. Our therapist who is an expert in this particular field indicated that my oldest suffers from a personality developmental disorder as opposed to a genetic inheritance.

Now, are you saying that Pope Francis wanted to meet Gary?

About 10 days ago, several talked about the eye being the lamp of the body. Over the years, many have tried to turn this expression into some sort of spiritual perception doctrine. In the Hebrew, having an eye that is full of light is an idiom for being generous - as is a dark or squinty eye for being stingy and unwilling to give to others. It’s not a big mystical thing. From the time of Adam, it seems men are much more fascinated by mystical powers that will make them like God and give them control over others. Living as a servant for another person’s good - -especially the least of these my brethren - is not nearly exciting enough for the average selfish human – even if it opens up living in the Kingdom on earth.

Throughout man’s religious history, whether Babylon, the wisdom of the ancients, Eastern religions, new age teachings of today, or TLWF’s “School of the Prophets”, there is the constant dabbling in the spirit realm which God forbids. “You will be like God” is the common theme. If you are in TLWF, you may be even worshipped as God if you are one the chosen few. The “deep” revelation teaching that is supposed to give special insight to the followers, only distorts their view of the leaders until they become something in their eyes so far removed from the truth that it is sadly laughable. Think of any cult that is not your own and you can see what I mean.

As an outside observer, it’s all fantasy and illusion. When you cannot even manage your own personal finances, you are not ruling the world financial markets by a prophetic word. If you can’t keep your personal family together, you are not ruling the governments of the earth. It seems we exchange even the most basic common sense things for “revelation” that produces no fruit. It’s always the latest new level, spiritual vision, or other foolishness that cannot be documented that continues to tickle men’s ears – in other words, it’s nothing more than deception.

Witnessing all the tragedy that has occurred from false “words from God” is so grievous, and yet there is no accountability for mistakes. People continue to stick their heads in the sand of “revelation” and ignore everything around them. I remember singing “Not What I See But That Which Thou Has Spoken O Lord” in TLWF – clueless to the fact that if God had spoken it, you would always see results. Few actually stopped to think that perhaps God had not spoken it after all and no amount of violent intercession would change that fact. Contrary to that are Jesus commands that work 100% of the time, and are not limited by some breakthrough of a pseudo prophet that is just around the corner – provided you keep sending money and blindly obeying.

poliscigrad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Their condition is my fault because I
> am responsible for staying when I should have left
> (even though I understand the power of coercive
> persuasion). It's the sins of the father being
> visited upon children.

Welcome poliscigrad,

I think in Ezekiel 18:30 and Jeremiah 31:29-34 (under a new covenant) God assures us he doesn't punish children for the sins of their fathers. I think possibly other OT references to punishing the kids may refer to the punishment of a nation for a nation's sins. Also don't beat yourself up for not having left earlier; you probably stayed because you are a loyal person.

Now about a "healthy agency." When I first read it I thought it was a man thing...you know maybe he lost his mojo. And after reading your subsequent posts I realize no that's not it, but I'm still a little fuzzy about what you mean.