Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: FireWalker ()
Date: January 18, 2020 07:48AM

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Quote

> Posted by: FireWalker
> Date: January 16, 2020 09:17PM
>
> (3) Were your posts on this forum about insurance
> meant to also discourage people from seeking to
> assert their legal claims against tlwf? If not,
> what was the purpose? I am a former insurance
> coverage litigator and can say your reference to
> insurance coverage on page 1056 in this forum is
> generally correct, but missing a whole slew of
> additional information. You left out the part that
> insurance coverage has limits, or a maximum that
> the insurance carrier might pay. If enough claims
> are brought, coverage runs out and the
> perpetrators do face personal liability. You left
> out the part that intentional acts might actually
> not be covered by insurance. If tlwf intentionally
> did not meet mandatory reporting requirements, for
> example, and that failure resulted in harm,
> coverage could be voided if that harm is the
> subject of a lawsuit. You left out the part that
> insurance companies can provide defense counsel
> under a reservation of rights, meaning that
> they’ll provide a lawyer but depending on the
> basis of liability, the insurance company might
> not make a single liability payment, leaving the
> perpetrators personally liable. You also left out
> the fact that even if few claims are brought and
> the insurance pays out, for someone that has been
> harmed, sometimes that payment will bring partial
> justice and the ability to help in recovery from
> the harm.
>
>
> FireWalker, thank you for your detailed
> clarifications on insurance money possibly paying
> for lawsuits against TLWF. I found Onion's
> previous remarks on the subject disheartening and
> wondered if people considering coming forward
> would be discouraged from doing so.
>
> I have also stated before that people should not
> allude to having insider information when they do
> not. Giving opinions about an ongoing case on a
> public forum is only helping the defendants,
> namely TLWF et. al. It is confusing to the casual
> reader of this forum. Onion is not part of the
> legal team representing the plaintiffs in the
> lawsuits against TLWF. In fact, she may have
> reason to work against them. It pains me to say
> this, but I can't stand by while someone makes
> comments about victims lying and exaggerating.
> Those statements do not come from a place of
> support for victims, and as such they are highly
> inappropriate, in my opinion.

Your post made me realize I was not clear.

I am not part of the legal team. I couldn't be since my California license is inactive but for those that didn't pick up the nuance, I want to be clear here.

JP

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Lilith ()
Date: January 18, 2020 08:28AM

FireWalker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lilith Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > And now the onion will be off screaming foul to
> > the moderator in 3 2 1. To the moderator; we
> can
> > back up these complaints with screenshots from
> the
> > Further discussion group on Facebook, the
> meddling
> > and demeaning is very clear in her own words.
>
>
> Isn't running to the moderator a form of running
> to the elders? When we are asking each other about
> underlying motivations, what is there to complain
> to the mods about? I remain happy to discuss my
> post with other adults here and am happy to
> provide links to Facebook or other public records.
>
> As I said I have not read the entirety of this
> forum. If there is a reason to run to the mods
> feel free to educate me. I'm the newbie here after
> all.
>
> And thanks Reepicheep for link to The Move. Glad
> there is already awareness there.
>
> JP.

She had done it to us before at least to those of us that refused to "fawn" one just left altogether the other wouldn't post for months and a couple of us just don't read her circular posts at all anymore.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: kbyrne ()
Date: January 18, 2020 09:35AM

FireWalker:

I think I may need to read your post a few times, but my first impression is that it is very well thought out and it also conveys a level of emotion that's palpable. I left the walk around the same time as you, though I don't believe I knew you. I knew Mary from working at Blix and working at the Building. One of the great things about this Forum is that none of us should be afraid to post what we've experienced and what we feel. Although many of us have shared experiences, there are still many more that have had very different experiences. I, for one, can't even imagine what the post-JRS years were like. For those that suffered abuse, in whatever form, it is not acceptable and can't be tolerated. And yes, victims should be believed and supported. Absolutely. It has been difficult for me to come to terms with the fact that the people I loved the very most in the walk have been the ones that inflicted some of the worse pain on the people they were meant to serve.

As far as people fawning over Mary, I don't know, maybe that's true. I also know that she's also given me an insight into the history of JRS, Marilyn, and Gary that I would have never known. Is she perfect? I think not. Is she also a TLW survivor? I think so.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: FireWalker ()
Date: January 18, 2020 10:06AM

kbyrne Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FireWalker:
>
> I think I may need to read your post a few times,
> but my first impression is that it is very well
> thought out and it also conveys a level of emotion
> that's palpable. I left the walk around the same
> time as you, though I don't believe I knew you. I
> knew Mary from working at Blix and working at the
> Building. One of the great things about this Forum
> is that none of us should be afraid to post what
> we've experienced and what we feel. Although many
> of us have shared experiences, there are still
> many more that have had very different
> experiences. I, for one, can't even imagine what
> the post-JRS years were like. For those that
> suffered abuse, in whatever form, it is not
> acceptable and can't be tolerated. And yes,
> victims should be believed and supported.
> Absolutely. It has been difficult for me to come
> to terms with the fact that the people I loved the
> very most in the walk have been the ones that
> inflicted some of the worse pain on the people
> they were meant to serve.
>
> As far as people fawning over Mary, I don't know,
> maybe that's true. I also know that she's also
> given me an insight into the history of JRS,
> Marilyn, and Gary that I would have never known.
> Is she perfect? I think not. Is she also a TLW
> survivor? I think so.

Yes, sorry for the typos on my long post and the lack of space between some paragraphs. Both make the post hard to read on top of my ever present verbosity. This format is new to me. Wish I could edit.

I agree Onion is a Survivor. But there is surviving your trauma, learning from it and not inflicting more pain on people who speak out.

Is my post intended to convey a certain level of emotion? Yes. Onion was explicitly asked multiple times to stop implying people are lying and to stop directly calling people liars. She implied just yesterday someone is not worth hearing (legally) because of a police record. That goes against giving support to someone speaking out. It goes against giving support when you try to discourage people from seeking legal recourse.

Do any of us know the truth of other people's experiences? No. That is why we hold space, let people speak, try to console, try to help people navigate through their past pains without presuming they are less than truthful or less than worthy of being heard. When you are first learning to hold space you may make mistakes. But when you repeatedly engage in behavior that is harmful then your motivations should be examined.

Examining motivations is why you are right kbyrne to examine mine. Thank you for your post and thoughts. I have long held many of the concerns I noted about Onion but there comes a time when the air needs to be cleared.

Question for the group: Has Onion disclosed here her close ties to John Miller and possibly other apco or tlwf authorities?

JP

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: NancyB ()
Date: January 18, 2020 12:58PM

It is good to keep these things in mind, Firewalker, Reep, and Kbyne

I'm going to go out on a limb again to state my experience with the leadership, again. I DID on a number of occasions tell the Bro about Mandatory reporting before 1983. I had my mandatory reporting certificates. I will swear on a bible that I told them.

A number of the Bro are now dead. Pretty much they laughed me off and did not listen. ( They never did listen to real facts) I DID talk to JRS himself about safety, neglect and abuse issues. He said I was "bitter". And the bro in CA would call me a 'bitch".

I have very vocal and I will stick to what I know for a fact that I was involved with. But, I am not clear as to if my testimony will help or hinder the right side.

Firewalker?

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: Lilith ()
Date: January 18, 2020 10:05PM

As we navigate our way through all of this I think it’s a good spot right here to remind people that while we can agree that everyone in or out of TLWF are victims not everyone is a survivor. Some survivors are still struggling to make it thru some survivors have made it thru and are now trying to help. And then there are the victims that took a left turn and will continue to victimize others to their benefit either as a method of survival or for their own perverse pleasure. It’s also a good time to remember that we were taught that “walls” and boundaries were bad basically standing us in the middle of the 405 freeway at rush hour naked and thinking it was perfectly okay. It was not okay. Boundaries are good. And not everyone that came out of this sh*tshow is the same and has good intentions. Some that came out of this with nothing and will do whatever it takes to survive. Not all victims are the same. Just something to think about.

Edited to add:

I base this on their words, their actions and THE COMPANY THEY KEEP.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2020 10:24PM by Lilith.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: changedagain ()
Date: January 19, 2020 12:16AM

Lilith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
And then there are the victims that took a left turn
and will continue to victimize others to their benefit
either as a method of survival or for their own perverse
pleasure. It’s also a good time to remember that
we were taught that “walls” and boundaries were
bad basically standing us in the middle of the 405
freeway at rush hour naked and thinking it was
perfectly okay. It was not okay.Boundaries are good.


true

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: changedagain ()
Date: January 19, 2020 12:18AM

from April of 2017:

Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: changedagain ()
Date: April 07, 2017 07:18AM

FCSLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The “mind” you’re describing seems for the
> most part nearly identical to the one I’ve been
> fighting against and trying to destroy for the
> past thirty-plus years.

When you were labeled "an enemy of the church" by Miller, presumably representing G & M, and conditioned like most of us to perceive it as coming from God...even if internally it made no sense...that conditioning is difficult to shake. It definitely contributes to the aspects of PTSD that many of us have faced. Of course, the truth is that you were an enemy of a corrupt, self-serving church and actually should find solace that you resisted its actions/teachings. The ones who should experience mental torment are those who callously went along with the program, and used their position to make other lives needlessly miserable. But I suspect they do not have natures that reflect on those type of things. Hope you continue to find peace FCSLC.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: FireWalker ()
Date: January 19, 2020 12:24AM

NancyB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is good to keep these things in mind,
> Firewalker, Reep, and Kbyne
>
> I'm going to go out on a limb again to state my
> experience with the leadership, again. I DID on a
> number of occasions tell the Bro about Mandatory
> reporting before 1983. I had my mandatory
> reporting certificates. I will swear on a bible
> that I told them.
>
> A number of the Bro are now dead. Pretty much they
> laughed me off and did not listen. ( They never
> did listen to real facts) I DID talk to JRS
> himself about safety, neglect and abuse issues. He
> said I was "bitter". And the bro in CA would call
> me a 'bitch".
>
> I have very vocal and I will stick to what I know
> for a fact that I was involved with. But, I am not
> clear as to if my testimony will help or hinder
> the right side.
>
> Firewalker?

Not everyone always follows the way my brain thinks so anyone is welcome to point out logic breaks or disconnects in what I say.

NancyB I don't think I should opine on the value of your testimony. If I do, then it is the same behavior as Onion opining on the value (or truth) of any Survivor's experiences.

What I can say is thank you for having shared your experiences. The historical context of your efforts on mandatory reporting should be shared and so I value your prior posts where you did share. It would be up to the legal team to determine if they need to utilize your information.

And in writing this I can also say that Onion's experiences likely included being TOLD survivors are "lying". I don't mean to invalidate her being TOLD such things.

What I am objecting to is perpetuating what she was TOLD without evidence. I am also objecting to her making the statements as declarations and not as, by way of example, "John Miller said X person is lying for Y reasons."

There are logic breaks for me in:

(1) a former legal professional perpetuating the authorities' claims of people's truths while also claiming you want to take down this cult.

(2) sowing seeds of doubt just like the cult did while claiming you want to take down this cult.

And (3) sowing seeds of doubt in such a way that it makes it seem like only certain people's experiences are worthy of being heard.

If the take down of this cult is done half-heartedly (apologies for walk talk) then all the cult will do is regrow. And it already is, in part. because people aren't being believed and others are silenced or too discouraged to come forward.

People need to speak truth to power even if speaking it is to people you are close to. They are difficult conversations to have; but to not question things is letting the status quo continue.

JP

P.S. writing on mobile phone with old eyes so apologies for typos!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2020 12:31AM by FireWalker.

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Re: The Living Word Fellowship, The Walk, John Robert Stevens
Posted by: FireWalker ()
Date: January 19, 2020 01:12AM

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> When you were labeled "an enemy of the church" by
> Miller, presumably representing G & M, and
> conditioned like most of us to perceive it as
> coming from God...even if internally it made no
> sense...that conditioning is difficult to shake.
> It definitely contributes to the aspects of PTSD
> that many of us have faced.

Again, full disclosure: I am a feminist. I am also an agnostic. My personal language is not God based and my personal belief system is there is no "He" in the wonders of the universe. When I talk with people about spiritually related topics, though, I try to use their language (as long as it is not hateful) so they might know I am trying to understand them. And what I have read in this forum leaves me with the perception the majority are still connected with God. So no offense is intended when I ask:

Isn't it more God like to recognize He gave you free will and a guideline of ethics for living a moral, truthful, loving life?


Didn't God ask us not to worship a man (or woman), to not have idols?

Isn't elevating the words of humans to God like violating the ask that we not worship man or woman?

I would guess those are not new questions in this forum. I ask them just to share how I started shedding the cult expectations that we wouldn't question things and that jrs's teachings were the be all end all.

The way I interpreted God's guidance and directive is that I should walk one on one with Him and not be beholden to others. He gave me the tools and knowledge to try and live a moral and ethical life. To me it came down to I simply didn't need someone in "authority" to tell me how to live. God already made me "authority" enough with ethical guidance.

Likely other relevant disclosures for bias review of me; I left/was asked to leave in 1985 (for 30 years I said I left but for the last few years I view it that I was manipulated into leaving the cult and my home at 16 because I was a teenage birth-mother).

I remain vocal about this cult now because I have a much younger sibling set born into the cult. My prior inability to speak against this cult harmed my beloved sibs. One remains entangled; one is smarter and bolder than I was as a young adult and is free.

The people I identify as my parents are in the process of freeing themselves. I believe their journey has been and continues to be painful, but that's mere speculation on my part.

My views of the Bible (and generally on holy books) today are that it's a written memorization of oral histories. That just like the game of telephone, stories handed down for generations change over time and no longer reflect the precise actual events. The translations and changes in linguistics also lead me to question if they are "God's" words. I fear when the words are used out of context to be hateful and to restrict other's personal rights. But I still respect that people find solace and comfort in holy books.

For those (and more) reasons I am a firm believer of separation of church and state.

Feel free to ask questions of me to weed out my biases. We all have them and it helps find common ground when we can identify them and talk about the relevant biases.

JP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2020 01:18AM by FireWalker.

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