"Forgiveness" is a hot and touchy subject here on the forum.
For me, personally, it seems like when people I know want to avoid something they say to "forgive and forget." It don't always receive that advice too well.( As a quick example of the "forgiveness' I'll pick on prettyboy and kBOYpost - sorry.)

I think that many of us are trying to give Christian support.We all need support. The truth as is see it that we need RESOLUTION before we can mover on.

For too long very wrong things have been swept under the rug with the excuse of spiritual battle or with a name of bad Biblical character - all a ruse by the perpetrators, the frauds, the phony, the liars; sexual abusers, cons to cover-up their Un- Christ - like ways. Remember, Shiloh and TLW is supposed to be Christian Non-profit - HA!

It is a lot to sort through to find the truth then change our thinking that we were NOT EVER the BAD GUYS. We don't want bitterness to eat us up - so look for individual healing solutions. There is no one simple Christian sounding answer for every survivor here. I wish there were.

May I suggest that we help each other find RESOLUTION first - forgiving ourselves comes next when ready. WE are all at different healing stages.

For Gary to say "I'm sorry", to me means, "I'm sorry I got caught." He does not appear to make amends for his failure as a leader to protect us with Christian values.

For Hargrave to be sneaky about continue "his ministry" with his track record is "unforgivable" in my book. He has seemed to restructure and move - on- leaving path of destruction rather than cleaning up the mess he made nor make changes in his pattern of behavior and thinking. He most likely will repeat his quest to bring about Gary's Kingdom.

We are not obligated to accept this degree of "by-gone by by-gones" by "forgiving and forgetting his part ( jrs and me and leadership as well) in this fraud that has been left un-bridled for far too long. Hargrave, Holbrook and the minions must be held accountable - the law says so.

My opinion - not a direct message from god or anyone no longer breathing.





kBOY Wrote:
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> PRETTYboy:
>
>
> I am not sure which 'FORGIVENESS posts' you may be
> referring to, but FORGIVENESS is first and
> foremost for the benefit of the FORGIVER, so that
> the experiences of abuse do not continue to
> drip-feed poison into their mindset. FORGIVENESS
> by the FORGIVER is also not subject to any act of
> contrition by an abuser.
>
> Accountability is another issue altogether. It is
> up to the legal system to grant any justice or
> mercy on behalf of the victim. FORGIVENESS
> requested from an abuser does not exonerate them
> from any legal consequences. One would hope that
> everyone eventually experiences a 'nature change'
> and be delivered from the darkness of a world
> where all victimizer/victim dynamics are no longer
> a reality, but that may be a day far down the
> road.

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Changedagain - You are so right. I wish there was
> a way to encourage people to speak out without
> triggering the walk conditioning that makes us
> feel like any minute we are going to get in
> trouble for some newly added "wrong" to the
> detailed and impossible list of do's and don'ts
> that were foisted upon us.
>
> Maybe we could start an inventory list of
> conditioning to go with the weird walk talk
> dictionary.
>
> Here is a start:
>
> Do Not Speak Up
>
> Do Not Ask Questions
>
> Keep Your Eyes Open Because You Are About to get
> in BIG Trouble
>
> The Walk Has the Power to Destroy Your Life
>
> Do Not Make Any Decisions

Onion, you are right on when you used the word "triggering". After 3.5 decades out of the walk there are HUGE triggers for me, too.

I never ever liked to get in trouble. I know how hard it at times to make a choice to do what is right, honest, just, safe for fear of making someone else angry.

They say 2 wrongs don't make a right. On that line- The threat of leader getting angry for you speaking the truth does not make any sense in the long run. Is conditioning causing you fear or it is fear from God?

2 Timothy 1:7 NKJV - For God has not given us a spirit of - Bible Gateway
[www.biblegateway.com]...
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Spitting out the truth, even with a sentence that may not make sense to everyone at the time, has been liberating for me.

it being memorial day and wondering what happened to brothers I use to fellowship with.I was about 22 yo and was discharged from ARMY in 1972.hichhiking with a surboard ran into JERRY and stayed at the brothers house on kauai.Having a catholic background stayed in walk 73 to 79.went to shilow Iowa around 78 and like it.Wanted to say sorry to Neal sorry as that was my only regreatS.would like to say aloha to all the other walkers from that period.I am born again john 3 16/ JD

ALOHA JERRY I REMEMBER KAUAI AS A FANTISY ISLAND. NO CROUDS I LIVE ON MOLOKAI AND ITS SIMELAR TO KAUAI STILL NO TRAFIC LIGHTS AND 7 PEOPLE SURFING IS CROWDED IT IS MIMORIAL DAY 2019 AND I REMBER YOU AND KIP IN ANAHOLA SO WERD KEEP SURFING FROM JD JOHN 3 16

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote
NancyB
>
> John was nothing like his father. WJ as i knew him
> was loving and kind. Anytime there was tragic news
> to deliver in town and they weren't members of a
> church WJ went with the police or sheriff to
> deliver the bad news.
>
> WJ opened the doors to anyone even the poorest in
> town whom other churches did not want.
>
> WJ had compassion. He did not put up with his
> flock being hurt. One of the sisters of a peer had
> gotten married and had 3 kids. The husband beat
> the crap out of her. WJ helped to hide her and the
> kids and encouraged divorce - he made a very clear
> statement that our believes do not promote divorce
> - in the event a wife and children are harmed he
> would not tolerate the abuse - He said it as
> father would say with love - this is not what JRS
> did in a few years to come.
>
> WJ called my mom when he heard one of my foster
> sisters talking inappropriately on the church
> phone. He really called parents when he knew kids
> were crossing the line.
>
> WJ was on the more slow and gentle side. When John
> came to town things got really jazzed up with
> energy from his charisma. The messages that WJ
> delivered were not chopped liver so to speak -
> they Biblical based. But when John came it was
> like the circus had come to town - new and excited
> shows to see.
>

>
>

Quote
changedagain
> Thanks for sharing this NancyB, regarding John's
> father. Nice memorial day tribute to a man that
> sought to do good in the world.
> I never knew anything about him, other than that
> he fell out of his favor with his son toward the
> end of his life.
>

>
> I appreciate you sharing this, NancyB. Back in the
> 1970s when Shiloh was being built, an enormous
> workforce was needed. Since it was not going to be
> a well-paid workforce, young people were recruited
> from Walk churches everywhere to live in Shiloh
> and work for little to nothing. Lots of them were
> hippies and many were from California. The sheer
> numbers of these young people and the power given
> by JRS to young leaders from this group created a
> culture clash that grew in intensity. It's no
> wonder that those imported to Shiloh thought that
> going to the Washington, IA church was beneath
> them. They were encouraged to think this way. I
> wasn't there, but from what I have heard about the
> Shiloh “sieges”, the worship and “violent
> intercession" were crazy by most people's
> standards. They yelled and screamed and cursed.
> They banged pipes together. Meanwhile, the
> congregation in Washington, IA would come to
> church looking nice and have a more traditional
> Christian service. The Shiloh "gut-fighters" were
> not impressed. They felt superior because that is
> what they were taught.
>
> There were many factors that contributed to the
> chasm that grew between the two locations, but I
> wonder now after all that has happened, which one
> looks the most sane in retrospect? Did JRS receive
> resurrection life when all the screaming and pipe
> banging was done? Did the Kingdom dawn in 1979?
> That's what I thought.

Thank you so much Reep for sharing that part of the story.

This has been difficult for me to write. I don't want to upset anyone. Then again I feel like I have an enormous responsibility to tell the truth to my home town as I see it.

Please note I made typos and left out a few words.

"When I read that the leaders have directed members to NOT to seek medical care what I am trying to explain is the very root of raising suspicions in the community."

Again, thanks for your input. I want to give my family and friends the very best answers to their questions.

I believe we on the forum have identified G & M as narcissists. For those who have not feel safe to comment, yet, because you are still trying to figure out why we are refusing to be controlled anymore by TLW hierarchy check out this video on the personality disorder - the points will ring a bell loud and clear.

[youtu.be]

I believe we on the forum have identified G & M as narcissists. For those who have not feel safe to comment, yet, because you are still trying to figure out why we are refusing to be controlled anymore by TLW hierarchy check out this video on the personality disorder - the points will ring a bell loud and clear about the toxic manipulation we all have suffered from.

[youtu.be]

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder once the audio tapes were digitized, if
> his 'vision' remained the same. After all, The
> First Principles were sanitized, and this would
> arguably be even more controversial than that
> publication. BTW, does anyone recall him making a
> reference to Disneyland in his account of being
> transported to the future? (Not kidding)

Disneyland - haha. JRS id's Walt Disney as a Neph. I took my kids to Disneyland anyway because once a year I got free tickets from my work.

No idea if he got on the mono-rail during his alleged vision . I think it was "trip".

Reepicheep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is it just me or does this all seem like it has
> been in planning for a long time? All without
> inviting input from the general congregation, of
> course. And definitely without any help from
> survivors.

I agree. "Why the no transparency?" would be a good question for the still faithful who hang-on or who are left holding the bag. Maybe a bunch of us should just make an appointment to go visit to see paperwork.

changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> typer Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > New to the site. Been reading since Oct. 2018
> when
> > my wife and I went to a Palmer Lake church
> meeting
> > and found out in one fell swoop about Rick's
> > predator nature.
>
> Gary authorized an independent investigation a few
> months ago and hopefully we will know soon whether
> Rick did anything wrong and anyone covered up for
> him. It's an independent investigation, so we
> should get the truth. If it wasn't independent, I
> would have cause for concern. I would not trust
> results of an investigation that is not
> independent. When I heard it was going to
> independent, I had a sigh of relief.


Hey changed, any one have a 'word' on that "independent investigation"of Gary's, yet?
I will hazard a guess that the forums, the FB pages and website have unearthed far more truths.