changedagain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally, I can't think of anything that would
> be more revealing than the decision-making that
> went into the selling of the churches through the
> years.
> The answers to the questions (below) should be
> common knowledge within the fellowship, IF there
> was a certain level of transparency in leadership:
>
> Who decided if a specific church was to be sold?
> Was there pressure exerted on the local leaders of
> that church to sell?
> What profit was realized from the sale of each
> church?
> Where did the proceeds go (accounts) for each
> sale, and who controls these accounts?
> How was this money ultimately used from each
> sale?
>
> It always bothered me that people were
> consistently told from the pulpit they had a stake
> in their local church, but were given only a token
> role in determining its fate. Well, at least it
> appeared that way to me.
>
> BTW, I spent 20 years helping maintain a couple
> local churches that were ultimately sold, so this
> is a visceral topic to me.
>
>
> Apostle Dog Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > There are federal guidelines, laws actually
> > governing where the money goes when a
> non-profit
> > (*I started to say non-PROPHET, but I didn't
> want
> > to be mean) but when a church is sold, the
> money
> > can not be used to enrich any church leader or
> > anybody else, the money has to be distributed
> to
> > other non-profits, such as missionaries, or
> other
> > churches. Somebody that knows how should turn
> > Gary and Marilyn in if they know they are
> getting
> > rich from the sell of churches.

This quote is from a few years back - in light of everything that is changing at Shiloh i wonder how things will be distributed with the history of church property?

Apostle Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I made a typo on the last post, I was referring to
> the time when Marilyn was speaking on the tapes
> along with John. I feel like John was in a decline
> and she was setting herself to take over then.
>
> Also, I was not accusing anyone of anything when I
> asked the question of whether anybody other than a
> Living Word church member had anything to do with
> the body of John Robert Stevens. I do believe that
> had the police, (if they were called) or the
> ambulance people, (if they were called) knew that
> there was so much to be gained by the death of
> such a major church leader, they might want a
> coroner to take a look at the body. I was under
> the impression from something Marilyn said at the
> meeting in L.A. I believe it was, that nobody at
> all has touched the body, like it had not been
> embalmed or certainly no autopsy performed. Would
> that even be legal? Should a closed society like
> that be able to handle the remains of the leader,
> or anybody else in the church, such as one of the
> "little people," should such people be allowed to
> handle the body with no authorities outside of the
> closed society investigating? Or was there any
> investigation?
>
> There is potential for a lot of abuse in such a
> situation. Not to say that anything illegal
> happened, I am speaking hypothetically.

Wow their are some real pearls of posts a few years back. I wondered the same things as well as asked in the quote.
Any information that I have not read up to when this quote was posted in 2015? JRS death scenario seemed a bit odd. At the time I thought jrs had the same family doctor as my family did.

40yearsin2016 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lily Rose:
> Yes, I'll stop lurking - want to assure you
> there's more than 3 people reading your posts...
> (I know that for a fact :>)
>
> JRS and Latter Rain:
> JRS taught latter rain because that was his
> heritage. At the time he discounted it but if you
> look carefully at the names of the "saints" that
> he frequently dropped, they were all latter rain.
> I've come to understand that the revelation that
> JRS wanted everyone to believe was his uniquely
> was not unique - but boy it sure was real to him,
> and boy could he preach!
>
> JRS's gift of Knowledge:
> I'm not sold on this one. JRS laid hands on me
> only once (1980?). His word that night was saw
> dust - it haunted me for a decade trying to figure
> it out what the hell he was talking about. I
> would have preferred that he’d just offered me his
> blessing.
>
> JRS a womanizer:
> I have no personal experience with this one -
> people I trust who did, have told me there was no
> truth to it. He was a drunk though. At the time
> when I asked the same trusted source "why didn't
> you tell us", the answer was "we didn't see it as
> important" - wow, I'm still stunned over that...
> it's part of why/how I left.
>
> G&M influence over JRS:
> The LW changed after 1978 or so – especially after
> 1979, “the unfolding” etc. That was when I first
> heard Marilyn’s name. I never could figure out
> what exactly was going on at the time. My pastor
> told us in private that he’d been “shielding” us
> from some of the stuff that was going on at LW in
> LA, he refused to tell us anything more than that
> and then we prayed for them. Was it Marilyn, the
> drinking or both? Nearly 40 years on, does it
> really make a difference? I’ve often wondered
> what the Walk would have looked like today if John
> had lived longer... ??? I don't think so.
>
> G&M: forgiveness, errors (you’re very gracious)
> Later Marilyn personally destroyed the lives of
> dozens of people I care deeply about. Gary, to
> me, was always a puppet – my 1st wife called him
> the guy in the really tight blue jeans.
> He was a puppet for JRS and he continued that role
> when he married Marilyn. G&M have never had any
> kind of hold over me. My pastor (god bless him),
> told me once he’d forgiven them. I haven’t been
> able to get that far...


40 years thanks for posting this 4 years ago. I'm fashionably late in reading, but, ever so glad you made these statements. I was officially in since 1957 to 1983 with ties a lot longer, so my perspective aligns with what you said.

I know I'm hogging there forum after binge reading 2013 to 2015 with one year having been wiped out completely.

I quoted a comment from paleface to a guy named Timothy who claimed he dated a girl from the Washington church in 1970. He described the member as "farmers wearing overalls. And he named his girlfriend who was 16 - what he wrote had to have been BS.

I had been a member of Christian Tabernacle since 1957. I was in my home town church in 1970. I find this kind of mis-information about Washington, Iowa as very disturbing - and I have found this kind of descriptions to be rude and disrespectful to the entire Washington county community by the youth guests from other churches since 1966.

It is past time that the Washington, Iowa perspective as seen from my eyes be told about Shiloh. I will post my first hand observations in a new post. As Shiloh and TWL dissolves the good people of Washington county as watching - and have watched in horror since the beginning of Shiloh. I am ashamed to say I was ever a part of the cult.

NancyB wrote:

John was nothing like his father. WJ as i knew him was loving and kind. Anytime there was tragic news to deliver in town and they weren't members of a church WJ went with the police or sheriff to deliver the bad news.

WJ opened the doors to anyone even the poorest in town whom other churches did not want.

WJ had compassion. He did not put up with his flock being hurt. One of the sisters of a peer had gotten married and had 3 kids. The husband beat the crap out of her. WJ helped to hide her and the kids and encouraged divorce - he made a very clear statement that our believes do not promote divorce - in the event a wife and children are harmed he would not tolerate the abuse - He said it as father would say with love - this is not what JRS did in a few years to come.

WJ called my mom when he heard one of my foster sisters talking inappropriately on the church phone. He really called parents when he knew kids were crossing the line.

WJ was on the more slow and gentle side. When John came to town things got really jazzed up with energy from his charisma. The messages that WJ delivered were not chopped liver so to speak - they Biblical based. But when John came it was like the circus had come to town - new and excited shows to see.

Thanks for sharing this NancyB, regarding John's father. Nice memorial day tribute to a man that sought to do good in the world.
I never knew anything about him, other than that he fell out of his favor with his son toward the end of his life.

I have a unique perspective surrounding Shiloh from its conception that few on this forum know. As Shiloh in particular dissolves it is important to know that Washington county is watching and has been for all theses decades.

It is more than my opinion, that the Washington community had often been disrespected by the antics of more than a few "members"/ followers of TWL organization since the mid 1960's. Behavior of youth and adult had been alarming to the upstanding people to the small community.

As I binge read last night it became more clear to me how lop-sided the perspective was on some comments from survivors. I am not trying to criticize anyone, but, put things in perspective and in no particular order.

1) it is clear to me that few who came to Shiloh knew the whole story of the dream for Shiloh. This is important because the vision was NOT what the remembers of Christian Tabernacle were lead to believe would turn into.

2) Winter break of 1966 or '67 for the first time a group of youth came to Iowa for church camp. Previous to those years a few Iowa youth went to CA for youth camp, including myself.

When I was in CA around most of the youth with few exceptions like my dear friend Reepi, I was appalled at the no so Christ like behavior. Call me "legalistic" but... The loud, raucous, rude and un- Christian behavior of the youth group when the went to Washington business on the square terrified the merchants.

I was embarrassed in particular at the music store. I knew the owners and I took music lessons there.

A group of hippies went to talk to the high school - uh-oh. My teachers didn't want drugs in our school tho' the hippies said they were saved and stopped using drugs.

3) Ground was broken for Shiloh, my father-in-law was a part of it. My husband and I were living and working in another county but made Sunday trips to church. With the weird things coming out of CA Washington people were nervous. Especially when all these hippies talked about hippie stuff- free love and weed. They were representing their personal preferences NOT as representatives of Shiloh.

4) My husband and I got sent to Waukegan. When we came back home to Washington my husband got a KB job and I was recruited to be the nursing directors of a group of child care centers. My grant paid less than minimum wage.

At that time the professionals in town were alarmed because a day care seemed "communistic".

My job was to develop a health record system that included immunizations
( which were still kind of new) and health history etc- and infection control. I also did child care and taught.

You may be wondering why I'm telling you my job description...it is significant to Shiloh...

I had closely aligned with the Public Health Department. There are rigid exceptions for immunizations; health records and sanitation. The person in charge was very excited to work with me on this project. She had known me since I was a student librarian at the public library and my parents had done work for her - it's a small town. She knew I was Christian Tabernacle member so she asked me about Shiloh. I could tell her much except the dream I had had about a church camp with flush toilets - tho' we were expected to get out there more than what was possible.



My husband's KB job and my nursing director job did not pay enough to pay rent and feed our kids. An OB job opened. some one knew I was back in town with my RN degree so I got a part time job in OB at Washington County hospital.

My dear direct supervisor was amazing woman. Everyone loved her - had delivered generations of babies. She was concerned about 2 things: the day care being communistic and what in the world was going on at Shiloh.

Some young women had come in to deliver and there were quite frankly weirdos plus there was odd things about the births that ended up with my supervisor having to go out to Shiloh to follow up on. Some couple said things that were really RED FLAGS to this very experienced nurse and doctor.

So I got questioned. I had no answers as to why these couples were saying such weird stuff. My only answers was that I guess the were flakes and not reflective of the church camp. I kept to myself my uncomfortable feelings about the not so Christian things in the meetings out there.


When I read that the leaders have directed members to go to seek medical care what I am trying to explain is the very root of raising suspicions in the community. Shiloh members from the beginning raised all kinds of red flags and I knew it from the Washington community perspective - and I AGREED with the medical community.

DHS; public health; doctors nurses were NEVER the ENEMY. They were doing their jobs in the interest of public health with in the county. Most members don't know that a few flaky hippies and poorly trained people nearly got the whole place shut down.

I spoke to my father-in-law who seemed oblivious to the real problems. I sat in the upper room with JRS with M prancing around. I even wrote it out what MUST be corrected. The leadership was told about so many issues from my medical perspective as well as the other nurses out there - he ignored the facts and was "bitter".


Any one want more local in sight?

Washintonians have questions about "slave labor in next my next post.

Quote
NancyB

John was nothing like his father. WJ as i knew him was loving and kind. Anytime there was tragic news to deliver in town and they weren't members of a church WJ went with the police or sheriff to deliver the bad news.

WJ opened the doors to anyone even the poorest in town whom other churches did not want.

WJ had compassion. He did not put up with his flock being hurt. One of the sisters of a peer had gotten married and had 3 kids. The husband beat the crap out of her. WJ helped to hide her and the kids and encouraged divorce - he made a very clear statement that our believes do not promote divorce - in the event a wife and children are harmed he would not tolerate the abuse - He said it as father would say with love - this is not what JRS did in a few years to come.

WJ called my mom when he heard one of my foster sisters talking inappropriately on the church phone. He really called parents when he knew kids were crossing the line.

WJ was on the more slow and gentle side. When John came to town things got really jazzed up with energy from his charisma. The messages that WJ delivered were not chopped liver so to speak - they Biblical based. But when John came it was like the circus had come to town - new and excited shows to see.

Quote
changedagain
Thanks for sharing this NancyB, regarding John's father. Nice memorial day tribute to a man that sought to do good in the world.
I never knew anything about him, other than that he fell out of his favor with his son toward the end of his life.

I appreciate you sharing this, NancyB. Back in the 1970s when Shiloh was being built, an enormous workforce was needed. Since it was not going to be a well-paid workforce, young people were recruited from Walk churches everywhere to live in Shiloh and work for little to nothing. Lots of them were hippies and many were from California. The sheer numbers of these young people and the power given by JRS to young leaders from this group created a culture clash that grew in intensity. It's no wonder that those imported to Shiloh thought that going to the Washington, IA church was beneath them. They were encouraged to think this way. I wasn't there, but from what I have heard about the Shiloh “sieges”, the worship and “violent intercession" were crazy by most people's standards. They yelled and screamed and cursed. They banged pipes together. Meanwhile, the congregation in Washington, IA would come to church looking nice and have a more traditional Christian service. The Shiloh "gut-fighters" were not impressed. They felt superior because that is what they were taught.

There were many factors that contributed to the chasm that grew between the two locations, but I wonder now after all that has happened, which one looks the most sane in retrospect? Did JRS receive resurrection life when all the screaming and pipe banging was done? Did the Kingdom dawn in 1979? That's what I thought.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2019 01:26AM by Reepicheep.

We forum members who call our selves "survivors" of The Church of the living Word cult know that Gary Hargrave and his leadership team read our posts. We also know that other survivors and current insiders "lurk".

Sometimes this forum gets TROLLS here to cause trouble and are not giving accurate information. that makes this whole sticky cob web mess difficult to sort out. The is especially true when members of the Washington, Iowa community read this wondering who, what, where, why things got to this point.

What we forum members have not seemed to be aware of is the fact that the good people of Washington county Iowa are also trying to figure out what in Hell has been going out there at Shiloh. What sticks out are the problems that do spill out boundaries not that the "Kingdom of God is moving to a new level." This is foreign to people who are raised in denominational churches that have open meetings on how their own church is operating.

Think about horrifying history of some disastrous cults: Jim Jones: Charles Manson: WACO etc. Who can blame a nice community for wondering?

An expensive amphitheater and 4th of July fireworks does NOT particularly spell "normal" and safe to me when I knew what was going on all these decades as an insider who "escaped" leaving friends behind.

Certainly with all the improprieties in a small communities are noticed. For example: why would a Christian commune allow so many drunks on the road and in the bars? Why has church leadership not disciplined theses people?

Maybe the bulk of Shiloh community over the years have been good citizens, loving and kind, but, too many inappropriate words and actions dui's and neglected medical issues to say the least by a few are cause for grave concern with my sources -

-I was born and raised in Washington, Iowa. My ancestors were early settlers in and around this part of Iowa before it was a state. I am proud to say that I am an Iowan.I have a life long stake in the community of Washington, Iowa tho' I currently do not live there. BUT, I am embarrassed to say I was ever a part of Shiloh.

Folks want some clarification on why many alleged "slave labor". I support the claims of long hours and little or no pay then long meetings. But the complaints make little sense to hard working people in rural Iowa.

When Iowans read, " they make me pull weeds", the response is, "so?"

Who can clarify why you were abused by the leadership ? Where did they neglect their duty? It may help to take a good look at OSHA


I'm not ordering anyone to answer any of the questions that I ask. I can't answer to my long time friends and relatives anything but what I personally experienced - my version has a different perspective from most.

There is a Washington perspective I believe few Shiloh members ever thought about ( Except the wonderful people I grew up with in Christian Tabernacle)

1. If you did garden work what did "Shiloh" do to help prevent injury and dehydration? Anything? did you have any training about how to work with any tools or how to avoid injury; sunburns, dehydration? Why or why not? How old were you?

2. Complaints about not enough food for the amount of work you did.
Can you make a list of typical menus? Why do you think the food was limited?

Who prepared the food? Who did the dishes? What were the eating accommodations?
Who planned the menus? Where did the food come from? Who PAID for the food Shiloh ate?

BTW did you thank Gladys for all her hard work in the kitchen?

3. How did you pay for your room and board at Shiloh?

4. Why did you come to Shiloh? What prepared you to move into Shiloh?

What were your expectations for your personal responsibility at Shiloh?


Did you expect hotel services? If so, who would be the staff and paid them or did you expect volunteers? When you "got the word" or invitation to go to Shiloh did you expect to have a job? Or did you just show up? ( Washington people have no idea how so many people got to Shiloh and why."

Did you have a job? How were selected for any jobs you did and how well were you trained? How much were you paid? did you pay income tax? why or why not? Did you pay into Soc Security? Why or why not?

4. What was a typical schedule at Shiloh? How much time did you spend learning the Bible and and how to pray? Did you sing worship songs? Was the music contemporary, rock, heavy metal or rap ? acapella or instruments?
What were typical things


5. Were you screened with a back ground check before you worked with children if you did?

6. Shiloh is said to be a non-profit Christian education and conference center.

How were you "oriented" into the church group?

How much time did the leadership spend on teaching you doctrine of the church? In a paragraph can you state the Christian doctrine practiced at Shiloh?


Thanks for your patience forum members. As we put together puzzle pieces on our trauma I believe the good community of Washington who opened their arms deserves some real honest answers form real people who were involved in Shiloh.

I don't know how to answer for 1,000 of other people when my old classmates ask me. It is their business to ask. I want to give an honest answer as they expect from me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2019 01:43AM by NancyB.

Onion's comment is worth repeating.

Onion Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have been looking at a lot of the requirements
> for maintaining tax-exempt status and one
> principle that I am loving is that if an
> expenditure that seems to benefit those who are
> connected to, or paid by, the nonprofit is
> approved by the Board then all of the board
> members could liable for reimbursement and taxes.
> The way a board member (or anyone who has
> influence within the organization) shows they did
> not approve the spending is by having
> recorded/written evidence of that person's
> disagreement with the expenditure. Recusing
> oneself from voting or participating, or failing
> to attend the meeting where a decision is
> discussed, is NOT accepted as proof or a defense.
> If no dissent is recorded in the records, then the
> individuals are considered to have agreed.
>
> I would think there would be lawsuits against
> leadership who made decisions without allowing
> dissent or for cult mind control that prevented an
> ability to even have a difference of opinion if
> the IRS found against any individual for the many
> questionable expenditures that benefitted people
> and did not benefit the churches or their
> tax-exempt/religious purposes.
>
> Apparently, the best thing all of us have done is
> to publicly speak up. I would hope that those who
> are die-hard loyalists to the past will realize
> there is a requirement to speak out about
> wrongdoing to avoid being held responsible. Of
> course, the complete control exercised by various
> leaders will result in complete liability but that
> doesn't mean they will be the only ones culpable.
>
> Ponderings....

Great post regarding the questions raised by community members about Shiloh, NancyB. I'm interested to see if anyone who worked for Shiloh, especially in the early days, wants to chime in. My guess is that there was little to no training given. KBoy has shared some of his experiences working at the sawmill. I have experienced attending summer camps there and have gotten ill from dehydration while working outdoors. I also observed many become ill in the Young Adult School of Prophets (YASP) when they were taken to work outside to get rid of the mess euphemisticly known as "rose bushes" for hours at a time in the hot sun. One young person became so severely dehydrated that he probably should have been taken to an emergency room, in my opinion. But I am not trained in the medical profession.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2019 02:43AM by Reepicheep.