lily rose,

In the late 60's and early 70's hundreds of young people came flooding into the church and I don't know of anyone who came who was educated in the Scriptures. Peter Whitney and Bowman Littleton were zealous about the Scriptures, but they were kids like every one else among the multitudes of young people who came and remained as members.

John Stevens we might say - spiritually fathered a multitude of young people and the main theme he was preaching was centered in Christ crucified.

kbyrne probably loved John Stevens for kbyrne's own reasons and even after 10 years of having left the church kbyrne held a special place for John in heart - so much so that he/she found a way to name their child after John in a different way.

When did it stop being about God's Word and become John's Word ? I think for most - our spiritual journey came alive beginning with John Steven's.

Like kbyrne I had moments where I realized certain things over the years after I left the church. I realized I had made John out to be more than he was to be. I thought because of his love for God, he would not knowingly do any wrong. So I put my trust in man and I learned much later by the Scripture that we are to put our trust in God and not in man. And realizing this - I changed and re-arranged my thinking.

Lily Rose, I think when ever you become a part of any group of people - ( the us ) you spoke about - I think whether it's the girl scouts or a club - people adapt themselves to one another and to the leadership. I think it happens every where even with those who join a sewing circle. Human's fit their selves with in the group and stay as long as they fit and can get along with each other. My opinion.

At this point - I still believe what the Scripture says and what John Stevens taught about this. That one does not join the church to become a member of the church. Because it is - God Himself who sets us into a spiritual body of believers in Him - according to His will and of God's own good pleasure.

So I believe that TLW is where God chose to set me - to grow up in the faith. So whether I was set by God into any body of believers, whether in a denomination or in a cult - I apply - that was - God's choice for the place I would be growing up in my faith in Him. I figure God knowsand knew what He was and is doing or does and I will have learned what I needed to learn growing up in the place where I was set by God.

And I have faith to believe that I am no less a member of the body of Christ because I left what was once my spiritual home. I left home because of the abuse I experienced as a member of the body of Christ, in the place where God set me. I left mainly because I realized I could not change what was taking place against me or my family and I realized I had a choice and I chose to no longer subject myself to something I did not have to subject myself to. I left for reason's of self preservation.

I continue to have realizations like kbyrne, even to this day. Now I am growing old and still find I am still growing up.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> kbyrne said, "When did it happen, where did it
> happen for me that it stopped being God's word and
> it was John's word? When was the line crossed?"
>
> Something I jotted down from Why People Fall
> for Charismatic Leaders: "When you reinforce a
> very strong "us" a lot of group psychology will
> kick up. There's a lot of conformity, there's a
> lot of not questioning things because other people
> seem to be going along with it."


Invisible, I don't see JRS as my spiritual father at all. Too much of what he taught was destructive to me and I have had to unlearn it. Further, I doubt God placed me in JRS"s church. That was my own decision and doing. I probably didn't even seek God about it. That said I certainly respect those who find it in their hearts to see him as a spiritual father.

I posted the quote from Why People Fall for Charismatic Leaders because I though it captured how we can get sucked in deeper and deeper into something that we want to believe is spiritual but in reality it is off. I recall a few years ago Corboy posted the findings of a study that those in the inner circle have a harder time seeing through the hype of a charismatic leader. I was not part of the Blix inner circle. But I have often thought that if I had committed myself to them, I probably wouldn't have left the Walk before JRS died. I mentioned a while back a friend, Susie Pugh, kind of an independent thinker. When I reflect, I think her comments and insights about JRS and Blix influenced me to question some things. In particular, when the focus on JRS, his breakthroughs, becoming Christ in the earth become the more dominant thinking in the Walk, I had reservations like a line was being crossed, but I remember wanting to conform via the intercession. Had I been part of Blix inner circle, the conformity would have been demanded and I might have been influenced into complete conformity. I guess, to sum it up, perhaps being part of the inner circle can make it more difficult to be objective about a charismatic leader.

Invisible Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> In the late 60's and early 70's hundreds of young
> people came flooding into the church and I don't
> know of anyone who came who was educated in the
> Scriptures. Peter Whitney and Bowman Littleton
> were zealous about the Scriptures, but they were
> kids like every one else among the multitudes of
> young people who came and remained as members.
>
> John Stevens we might say - spiritually fathered a
> multitude of young people and the main theme he
> was preaching was centered in Christ crucified.
>

John preached Christ crucified and phony baloney. The phony baloney was exciting and new. It kept us coming back for more. Some expats can't find a true Walk with God today because of the phony baloney their spiritual father taught.

John prophesied marvelous worlds over Whitney and Littleton who could memorize. Quote scripture. Did they know how to interpret and discern. John criticized seminary and bible school for his personal revelation. To discern meaning by a mystical process. John taught G&M to interpret scripture to say what you want it say. The result. Bad fruit.

Invisible Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> Here is the difficulty - Can the members of the
> TLWF of today - see where the things they have
> been taught and believed to be God's will, were
> and are in error - in light of what is reported
> to have taken place or will those who know first
> hand what took place - continue to justify the
> wrongs done by not relating to what took place
> against and to this family, by only being willing
> to - as a defense - point out how well the
> daughter is doing and has turned out - having
> been raised by the church?


I hear ya, Invisible, Gary's defense would "point out how well the daughter is doing and turned out -having been raised by the church." No admission of error. Gary takes credit for all kinds of world events by saying "How do you know our prayers didn't cause it." Even if half the world is praying for something. Gary says God only hears the prayers of TLWF. Phony baloney.

Invisible Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> So I believe that TLW is where God chose to set me
> - to grow up in the faith. So whether I was set
> by God into any body of believers, whether in a
> denomination or in a cult - I apply - that was -
> God's choice for the place I would be growing up
> in my faith in Him. I figure God knowsand knew
> what He was and is doing or does and I will have
> learned what I needed to learn growing up in the
> place where I was set by God.
>
I don't know about that. If I though God set me in the LW. I might think Him a cruel. You have reached interesting conclusions about your life. That aren't mine. But, I like that you post them.

As far as my time in TLWF being the will of God, I tend to think now that God can use even our mistakes for our good in the end. Often our greatest hurts become our ministry to others. By ministry, I mean service to, not position over others. Like the story of Joseph where his brothers sold him into slavery, but God used it to "preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance." For me, the will of God is that I do what He says today - which I find in the red letters, not from another man. The past is the past - I can't change it, just learn some hard lessons from it.

I know I would have continued to gloss over the teachings of Jesus with no real personal effect without the crisis that came from my involvement with TLWF. It certainly made me desperate to search much deeper where I could finally start hitting some pay dirt. My search certainly did not start with Jesus - I thought he was the reason for my pain. What never ceases to amaze me is how Jesus could not state his teaching any clearer, yet it is hidden from the casual observer. If I could have just heard "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers." it could have saved me thirty years.

Larry Bobo wrote:......... If I could have just heard "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers." it could have saved me thirty years.
------------------
When I said John Stevens fathered a multitude of young people - I wasn't saying that to elevate John or to disqualify John. If I would have been myself today 50++ years ago I would not have involved myself 100% in the same way. I would not have needed to learn all the things that I learned through the good things and the difficult things that I experienced while living my life as a member of TLW. But reality is - there is no such thing as if I would have or should have - when it is behind me - it is what I do or don't do today that matters.

It wasn't John's fault that I made John out to be more to me than he should be. I had no real sense of self before I came thru the doors of TLW. And so when I heard the Scripture how we were to prefer one another above out selves - I applied what I thought that meant - from a place of being young, naive and immature. Nothing wrong with that - it's just life and a part of growing up. And Just like Larry Bobo at the proper time I heard in the Scriptures many years later what was a counter balance to being self sacrificing. I heard it when I was ready to hear and to receive what I needed to know - to be able to straighten up and fly right. Yet I am sure I will continue to hear more and more for the rest of my life here on this earth.

Invisible Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It wasn't John's fault that I made John out to be
> more to me than he should be.

Invisible, I respectfully have to disagree with this one statement. I hold JRS partially responsible. He had the means and authority to correct us when we started to glorify him. He could have shut that behavior down. But he didn't. Instead he fueled it with messages about the special "kingdom apostle", etc. I think he liked the glory. Sorry, but I'm not going to put all the blame on us.

Among the radical intercessors, it became blasphemous not to recognize that John was Christ's manifestation. And I recall on numerous occasions John assuming this place in people's minds and hearts. He always feigned reluctance, of course, but in no uncertain terms acknowledged the supposed unique, age-changing importance of his ministry.
After he was gone, G & M upped the ante--where not recognizing Christ in the flesh, and instead relating to 'God in the Sky,' became a mortal sin. Although they would claim that Christ had returned in a many membered body, the emphasis was always on them. You were judged by the degree you obeyed Marilyn.

Puddington wrote:

> It wasn't John's fault that I made John out to be
> more to me than he should be.

Invisible, I respectfully have to disagree with this one statement. I hold JRS partially responsible. He had the means and authority to correct us when we started to glorify him. He could have shut that behavior down. But he didn't. Instead he fueled it with messages about the special "kingdom apostle", etc. I think he liked the glory. Sorry, but I'm not going to put all the blame on us.
--------------------------------------

Puddington: Thank you for sharing your thinking with me, (about blame ) and responsibility.

I believe it is God Himself who alone can judge the motives and intents of John Steven's heart. I believe only God alone - fully knew John.

What - not in general but "specifically" did he preach and teach that convinced you to put Him in a high place of being the spiritual authority over everyone ?

Today it is evident to me
in and by part of what you wrote to me - that you now know the difference between glorifying a man and honoring and giving glory to God - to the degree that you have come to know God and to honor Him as God.

In this you have learned to become self disciplined with "understanding" - which I think is far better than having to be told what to do.

I thnk most have done things (willfully) and knowingly or unknowingly - that they after growing up enough - would not do the same today. To me this is part of the grace of God, that allows and makes room for us to grow up.

Perhaps God had extended the same grace to John Steven's with out personally condemning him. And how will we judge whether or not God was extending His grace to JRS for what we have come to believe - is not to be done?

I believe that each one of us will at some point give an account to God for what "we" individually or collectively have done. And if we are merciful to others, we will be shown mercy.

The meaning of mercy to me is - when you get less than you deserve to get - for what you have done.

If I should receive mercy - not knowing at the time I was receiving mercy - how much more will I appreciate and give thanks - should I discover - what some one else did for me, especially if I did not deserve it.