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While I will acknowledge some people MAY have a good experience, I am suggesting that they would have an equally good experience for a lot less money. [/quote

And on this point I whole-heartedly agree. An LGAT isn't the way to find peace.

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Saneagain,
“They have lost any sense of compassion,” but you have not. I thank you for your words as they hit to the heart of the matter. One cannot understand what loss is when you lose someone to this. I also thank you for having the courage to post here.

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When I read Jen03's letter to her Dad a few weeks ago I cried for hours, because when you lose someone to a cult is as if they have died; it feels the same, even though it is obviously not as bad; there is still hope. And when your family is destroyed by a cult, it is devastating. I follow Ghost Dancer's posts and despair because I cannot help him. I have not mentioned how my relationships were affected by quest on this board because it is too much, and too personal. I admire and respect people who are brave enough to write here about their relationships, and humble enough to ask for help. So when someone breezes in and says "I had a great time, get a refund" - I'm sorry. Either they have not read the posts, or they have lost any sense of compassion. There are plenty other places to celebrate the 'joys' of PSI. As someone else wrote another thread, crowing about it here is like rubbing salt into a wound. It hurts, and it makes me angry. And when you jump in repeating the same tired cliches - for what reason I have no idea - sorry, there's something very off about it.

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Passionate
Sane, when you say that someone "TOTALLY discount(s) the suffering which you've just read about", maybe you could see the other side of the coin and say you are totally discounting that this person had a good experience. There are two sides to that coin.

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I want to begin by saying how saddened I am by so many of your posts. So much suffering is represented here. I am so sorry.

My husband and I were booked to go to PSI Basic--I was going to go by myself this weekend because he already had a previous engagement. He was going to go next month, and I was planning on joining him (for the free-peat).

The friend that told us about it hadn't been yet, but was expected to go in order to get a contract for work. There is a local contractor in the town I live in that is using his business to suck people in. He is way up in the pyramid, and gives 33 DAYS of his own time, at his own expense, to lead men's meetings once a year.

I feel like we just missed getting hit by a bus. We put in a dispute with the credit card company, but I don't expect the refund. Still, I consider myself fortunate that the lesson only cost us $890, that's cheap compared to the price so many have paid.

I am so grateful for the information posted by those of you with personal experiences of PSI Seminars, otherwise I would have gone expecting to learn some nifty life tools, and would have been blind-sided by everything else. I suffered from severe depression in the past, but I've been fit and fabulous for the past five years - I wouldn't have appreciated the re-opening of healed wounds.

It seems obvious that it matters very much what one's mindset and personality type is going in to these seminars. It also matters who facilitates and what kind of people are volunteering. I have read and heard that really strong and brilliant people have "gone down", so I wouldn't like to assume that I'm too smart, etc., to have escaped unscathed. I feel very fortunate right now.

I will continue my education and personal growth at my own pace. I was looking for "more", but I wasn't looking for a quick fix-I just thought this was a place to continue my personal growth and learn something great.

To those of you who have lost so much, thank you for sharing and for possibly saving my marriage and my sanity!

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Hey All,

I am posting this as a file for your reading entertainment. There might be
someone who reads the sghawke posts and becomes uncomfortable with the whole
PSI deal or has questions. I urge you to think about your reactions and
decide for yourself what is true for you.

First off, Trolls. Trolls are people that enter into groups of people and
say offensive things to get a reaction from those in the group. Like if a
person, xxxxxxx, logged into alt.FireFighters.tactics and posted that
all fires were started by fireman wanting to keep their jobs, that would be
trolling. Obviously a false statement, but many in the group will respond to the troll. The troll doesn't care if the statement is true or false, just
wants to get people riled up. The term Troll is a fishing term, trolling is
moving along slowly trying to hook a fish. A Troll posts offensive messages to get a reaction from the fish. The best way to stop a Troll is to do what Cynthia did, make it a member's only group.

Secondly, it's kind of funny, I've seen all that stuff before. My friend
Jessica sent me a bunch of similar links as her response to me asking her to go to a basic graduation and then the basic.

An argument or debate is a series of statements that when strung together make up a story or conclusion. The validity of the story can be challanged by looking at the individual statements or if the statements will support the
conclusion. Trolls, like sghawke, can make statements of how PSI or other LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) seminars are not working for some people. Unless the statements are examined clearly, usually with much more explanation than the original statement, then the conclusions may be accepted as true when they are not.

Below is an example of how a simple statement requires a long explanation.

1) PSI is an LGAT.
2) LGATs are bad.
conclusion) PSI is bad.

1) Is PSI an LGAT? Probably, but so what if it is. It would be difficult to
prove it isn't as what exactly an LGAT is, is vague. Under some definitions, the Christian Church and other religions are LGATs.

2) Are LGATs bad? Nobody knows. The effects of attending an LGAT are
unknown, as no definitive study has been performed by independent
researchers. To really "know" the effects you would possibly need over 4000 test subjects, 2000 to go through all PSI seminars and 2000 to not have any PSI or similar seminars. Then you would have to devise a scheme to measure the quality of a persons life. Then you would have to devise a scheme to compare one person's life to another and make conclusions based on the findings. Then you would have to check on the people annualy for 20 years or more to see what the "effects" are if any.

Conclusion) PSI is bad. That is a false conclusion as the second
statement "LGATs are bad" is unproveable.

Further, a classification of "good, bad, right or wrong" is subjective,
meanting that each individual has a different set of paramaters they use to
determine how good or bad something is. Therefore any classification of good or bad is the personal opinion of the person making the statement.

Another example
1) My wife went to PSI
2) She isn't the same as before she went to PSI
3) PSI caused the changes
4) I don't like how she is now
5) That is bad.
Conclusion) PSI is bad.

1) Did his wife go to PSI? That is probably a true statement.

2) Is she different now than before she went to PSI? How much different? How do you measure different? Did she lose 1 lb of weight? Does she stick up for herself more than she did before? Does she not always let you make decisions for both of you now? See where I'm going with this? Difference, like art, can only be good, bad, right or wrong in the eye of the beholder. People become "different" every moment. As every moment passes they are that much older than before. It is an unanswerable question, and therefore an invalid statement.

3) Did PSI cause the changes? Now we're back to the first series of
statements. It is difficult to show if the PSI seminars can "change" someone who doesn't want to be changed. What if she was a smoker and went to a stop smoking seminar and decided to stop smoking. Did the seminar make her stop smoking or did she stop smoking? It is an unanswerable question and therefore an invalid statement.

4) Does he not like how she is now? That is probably a true statement. But why doesn't he like her? That is the real question I had when reading his posts.

5) Is a wife acting differently bad? That is open to debate and has no factual answer. You would have to clearly define how a wife should act that everyone could agree on. Then you would have to measure how closely, or not, the wife's actions fit the agreed upon set of "allowable wife actions." Of course there isn't such a set of actions and therefore no way to measure those actions. It is an unanswerable question and therefore an invalid statement.

Conclusion) Is PSI is bad? Well of course not, statements 2, 3, and 5 are
unanswerabe, therefore there can be no valid conclusion. The series of posts fails to prove PSI is bad (again).

Yet Another Example
1) I went to PSI
2) I acted how I thought I was supposed to act following the principles layed out in the seminars, book, and team members.
3) My actions caused me to fail
4) I regret going to PSI
conclusion) PSI is bad

1) Did she go to PSI? Maybe she did, lets assume she did.

2) Did she act according to the principles laid out in all the information
presented at the seminar? NO. duh! Don't over risk was a big lesson, she
bought items she knew she could't afford. That sounds like over-risking it to me. She made big life changes within the 30 day "don't make big life changes" time frame. In some ways she did use the seminar material correctly. She put out to the universe that she would divorce her husband if he didn't go to the seminars. The universe saw "divorce" and gave her one. Hmmm. She did not act according to the principles layed out in the seminars. #2 is a false statement.

3) Did her actions cause her to fail? Yes, this is a true statement.

4) Does she regret going to PSI? Yes she does. This is a true statement
conclusion) Is PSI bad? No, statement 2 is false, therefore the conclusion is false.

And just to show how I'm not making this all up I'll apply the same technique to my responses to the first item
1) PSI is an LGAT, 2) LGATs are bad, Conclusion) PSI is bad.

1) Is PSI an LGAT?
a) LGAT definitions are vague <- This is a true statement, check out wikipedia.
b) One definition classifies PSI as an LGAT <- This is a true statement (but
so is PSI 7 is 7 days long)
conclusion) "PSI is an LGAT" is a true statement

2) Are LGATs are bad?
a) No study has been performed that shows attending an LGAT is good or bad. <-This is a true statement.
b) Good and bad are subjective terms (meaning there is not a universal good or bad) <- This is also a true statement
conclusion) The effects of attending an LGAT are unknown, therefore this
statement is invalid (doesn't make any sense) <-- This is a valid conclusion given statement a and b are true.

Conclusion) Is PSI bad?
a) statement 2 is invalid <- this is a true statement
b) a logical sequence with an invalid statement renders the conclusion invalid <- this is a true statement
conclusion) The conclusion doesn't make any sense. <-- This is a valid
conclusion based on a and b.

Now, is it the case that one person could go through PSI and have a bad
experience? Sure. But I believe it is an invalid argument to suggest that one person having a bad experience, for whatever reason, indicates that all of PSI is bad. I believe you have to experience it for yourself and make your own decisions.

The other side of the coin is that it is difficult to prove that PSI is good
for all of the same reasons it is difficult to prove that PSI is bad. PSI is
what it is. If it helps you, great, if it doesn't help you (and I'm trying
really hard to be open to the possiblity that you could go through all of PSI
seminars and not improve your life at all) then you have learned one more thing that doesn't work for you. Rejoice! and move on, but please don't 'take' from the rest of us.

I am posting this as a file for your reading entertainment. There might be
some of you who read the sghawke posts and become uncomfortable with the whole PSI deal. I urge you to think about your reactions and decide for yourself what is true for you.

Also, please e-mail me to correct any logical fallacies I have committed in
this document.

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1) PSI is an LGAT.
2) LGATs are bad.
conclusion) PSI is bad.