...and before anyone says it, no I do not believe that the good experiences justify the bad ones. Too many people are hurt.

avc123,

I did group therapy many many years ago,; from 9:30 to 12:00 noon, that is approx 3 1/2 hours. We were allowed water, but we were not allowed food or tea of coffee, or any beverages with sugar or caffiene. And it was expressly explained to us that sugar, cafiene, or any type of food will enterfere with our emotions. i.e., these substances would suppress our emotions, and we would not be able to do our work.

It does not make sence in and "educational" setting to put these restrictions on people. Many years later, when I went to university, we WERE allowed water and coffee in the classroom, and depending on the instructor we were even allowed snacks.

The purpose of the LGATs in restricting food is to make sure the "recruits" are not suppressing their emotions, hense making it easier for the Leaders to do their brainwashing.

It DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to deprive people of food and drink in an "educational" setting, especially when they are cooped up in a room for hours on end with only one food break.

The programs that people at these message boards are complaining about all pose as "educational" and "personal growth" programs, but they are actually "doing therapy" and they are neither licences nor qualified to do therapy.

Dear avc123,

comparing LGAT programs to coleges is ludricrous. Colleges do not ask you to sign "secret" documents and make promises. Colleges print a detailed cirriclum for each course, and the student knows just what to expect. Colleges do not use hypnosis and therapeutic tehniques on students WITHOUT THEIR CONCENT.

So please, don't try to fool us with foolish comparisons.

Dear Passionate,

The objections here are not simply that people do not have a good experience. You have obviously not read all the comments on all the boards.

While I will acknowledge some people MAY have a good experience, I am suggesting that they would have an equally good experience for a lot less money.

But the truth of the matter is, as I found out yesterday from my friend, who said, precisely, : "It is not fun"...but unfortunately she is still in the clutches of the mind-benders, and as yet she has been unable to fully realize what has happened to her.

My first experience with Landmark was exceptionally unpleasant, but I only went back out of concern for my friend and to try to make sure she did not sign up for any more courses. (unfortunately she had already put down a deposit). She even said that she did not want to go, but "well, since I have paid my money I might as well."

Sad to say, her brainwashing was complete after the first day...subsequent days have only served to keep her more firmly hooked.

She has to keep going back to get her "bliss fix" - legimate therapy does not hook you, legitimate therapy gives you tools to manage in life without being dependant on a "teacher" or therapist.

Nothing you, or anybody else, can say will convince me that anything to do with any of the organizations referred to at this Forum (and in particular Landmark/EST) will convince me that any good can come out of an association with them.

'shad'

Passionate wrote:

Quote

Sane, when you say that someone "TOTALLY discount(s) the suffering which you've just read about", maybe you could see the other side of the coin and say you are totally discounting that this person had a good experience. There are two sides to that coin.

The way people talk here, it seems that is it an impossibility that anyone could have a good experience. That is not for you to decide, it is up to the individual who went to the training. Brainwashed? Blind? Possibilities. However if they truly believe they had a good experience you cannot take away from that unless you educate them about the flaws in their own thinking and behavior and show them how an LGAT has manipulated them. If they won't see it then they truly DID have a great experience, in their own mind. There is always a possibility that someone comes out of the training and isn't brainwashed and is healthy and can take the useful stuff and use it, while leaving the excess crap behind.

*Yawn*....and once again, Passionate jumps in to defend an lgat .... using lgat jargon and cliched concepts... and pretending not to be an apologist... :o

Sane, you read my post wrong. I am not defending LGAT's, I am defending the right of anyone who went through one to say they had a good experience, whether real or their brainwashed-reality.

I didn't read your post wrong, you read acv123's post wrong. They did not come here for help, information or education. They came here to tell us they had a good experience, and that we are 'mistaken', and in a very holier-than-thou tone that implies those who have anything bad to say about it have something wrong with their attitude, ie they were not 'willing' to get anything out of it.

You also read my post wrong. I did not say he/she has no right to say he had a good experience, I said its insensitive to say that, particularly on this subject, ie PSI - where most people here post very personal messages, from their hearts - not cliches from a seminar - and are hurting. And if you read between the lines, I'm saying that's a very poor reflection of the *training*. I have the right to say that. That's what this board is for.

You came to this board saying that you did Impact long ago, it was great, you learned a lot, but then you left because it wasn't 'what you thought it was'. Since then you have not given any information about Impact other than repeating what others have said, you continue to speak in Impact jargon and using Impact concepts and you regularly attack the people who have the most to contribute to the subject of Impact - ie exImpact and formerimpactgrad, and you frequently comment on the good things you took out of Impact. I have no idea whether you are here to defend Impact or for other reasons. What I do know is that when I write things on this board it comes from my heart, it hurts, and it takes a lot out for me to do it. I do it because it might help others who've had similar experiences, and because it might encourage others to share their experiences with me, which helps me a lot. And there is no other place on earth where I, or others, can do this.

When I read Jen03's letter to her Dad a few weeks ago I cried for hours, because when you lose someone to a cult is as if they have died; it feels the same, even though it is obviously not as bad; there is still hope. And when your family is destroyed by a cult, it is devastating. I follow Ghost Dancer's posts and despair because I cannot help him. I have not mentioned how my relationships were affected by quest on this board because it is too much, and too personal. I [i:3ee6bdf092]admire[/i:3ee6bdf092] and [i:3ee6bdf092]respect[/i:3ee6bdf092] people who are brave enough to write here about their relationships, and humble enough to ask for help. So when someone breezes in and says "I had a great time, get a refund" - I'm sorry. Either they have not read the posts, or they have lost any sense of compassion. There are plenty other places to celebrate the 'joys' of PSI. As someone else wrote another thread, crowing about it here is like rubbing salt into a wound. It hurts, and it makes me angry. And when you jump in repeating the same tired cliches - for what reason I have no idea - sorry, there's something very off about it.

Passionate and ACV123,

I simply cannot understand why people feel that PSI is the answer to their problems. “Take it, you might like it.” “I took what I wanted and left the rest” “It’s so perfect, it’s imperfect.” It does nothing but destroy lives, bending the minds of people for the single purpose of relieving them of their money. PSI does not care what the end result of your move to the white light means to you. It only cares about the money it can obtain from you. You say “it’s a business; of course they want to sell you more seminars. They are in the business of making money.” PSI is a con game geared towards relieving you of more of your money. Spend enough on the “seminars” and they give you a ring? “It was well worth what I took from it.” Would it be worth your family? Would it be worth the loss of the respect of your family and friends?

Before PSI my wife was someone I LOVED, respected and trusted. Her friends held her in high esteem. She had their trust and respect. This PSI bullshit BRAINWASHED my wife and made her into a selfish bitch. Nothing more, nothing less. Now her ex-friends don’t trust her, nor do they believe her lies. They now laugh at her behind her back and gossip about her and the cult she involved herself in.

I see the problems she has created in her life in a very short time. She now sits in jail waiting for a trial for passing bad checks for the simple reason that she wanted the money to take more of these seminars. Her PSI buddies berate her for being late to her PLD meetings and she’s upset that they “called her on it” as she put it. They told her she was “out of integrity.” Well they had that part right; she is out of integrity. She lost her integrity for believing in this PSI bullshit. Her friends can’t believe she got into this kind of trouble since her return from the ranch. They ask how she could have been this stupid. Some ask how come I did not see this coming and I have reached the point where I am embarrassed to have been married to her.

This has caused me a lot of heart ache and has put a strain on my family. MY FAMILY, not some PSI group. I don’t see her PSI buddies going to the jail to see her in her time of need. I don’t see her PSI buddies fronting the money to bail her out. In fact she has told me that she tried to call one or two of them and they won’t accept the charges for the collect call. So much for the bond they shared at the ranch. Well she’s not laughing about this anymore. You should ask her how it feels to lose, not only her self respect, but her freedom.

As for her family; my daughters should not have to see their mother in jail. Can you ever imagine taking your children to a jail to visit their mother? They won’t go because they’re embarrassed to be seen there and I refuse to take them. When she asks why they won’t come I take the blame and tell her I don’t want them to see the environment of a jail.

The fact remains; I still LOVE and miss my wife; stupid or not. I guess that’s something that will not change.

As for your attempt to persuade me that PSI is what it is; I am here to tell you PSI is nothing more than a bunch of bullshit, pure and simple. PSI was a business founded by a man who saw people as easy marks to separate them from their money. And you fell for it.

Saneagain,
“They have lost any sense of compassion,” but you have not. I thank you for your words as they hit to the heart of the matter. One cannot understand what loss is when you lose someone to this. I also thank you for having the courage to post here.

Ghost Dancer,

Your story is definitely one of more horrific ones. Is your wife starting to think PSI might, possibly, be bull*%$t?

I was wondering if her lawyer will try to use her PSI brainwashing as part of her defense in any way. It seems she was a model citizen until they got a hold of her.

I'm really sorry you and your girls, and your wife for that matter, are going through this.

Ghost, I agree with you. You hit the mark when you said they are in it for the money . I too have read every post on this thread and have felt the pain of others as they have shared their stories of personally dealing with the pain caused by others, corporate or family. Yjat pain is real and shared by many who have been entangled and engulfed by an LGAT by any name.

Yes Sane, I did say I left Impact because I found that it wasn't what I thought it was. I thought it would be a way to solve all my problems but it created a whole new set of them. Just because I don't share those problems here doesn't mean I have none. I choose to not bare my soul as it won't solve my problems and talking about them hurts.

I find it petty that you take notice and care to comment on the words I choose, and overlook the sentences they make. On the Impact thread I have plainly talked about problems with Impact and LGAT's in general. If you didn't see any of them then re-read.

All I chose to address here was that you were discounting someone's experience here, like you say an apologist would discount someone's pain. Same theory, different sides of the story.