Boonetahoe,

>>I promise: I'm way, WAY out of the "program." <<

>>LGATs, including the one I am involved with. . . <<

OK, which is it? What LGAT are you involved with? And how can you claim to be WAY out of the program if you are still involved with one?

Also, as EXImpact's experience is far more recent, including TIT III, I don't believe you're in a position to make recommendations about their current training.

You could recommend what they were doing 10+ years ago. But that doesn't exisit anymore.

They make a point of sharing how much of TIT has been moved into Quest. They enroll trainees into TIT during Quest.


>>Just because I'm objective doesn't mean I'm programmed. You can see that possibilty can't you? <<

No. I don't claim to be objective at all. I just share my experience as best I can for what it's worth.

In this moment, and for some time now, I've not felt anger toward Impact or the Bergers. They are, in my experience, criminals. People I trust report not having been paid by them, having been lied to, robbed and slandered by them. There are records to back that up.

Even if they were selling the Holy Bible, or even giving it away just for shaking Hans' hand, based on their unbroken 20+year record of illegal and unethical business practices I would not recommend anyone buy one from them!

Your recommendation that others go there, even if only because their family is already there, does not occur as anything even close to objective to me. Far from it!

I don't hold you, or anyone, as objective, especially about this stuff. Nor do I claim to be so myself.

(BTW: I am struck that we are discussing objectivism here on the 50th anniversary of Ayn Rand's publication of Atlas Shrugged!)

>>How long ago did you do the Berger training? I wonder if I know you.<<

From what you have shared, I believe it's highly likely we have indeed met in person at some time there in the past.

But for all I knowright now, you could be Sally playing some sick game here, or one of her many certain-she-is-the-Goddess minions.

Impacted

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Impacted
Boonetahoe,

>>I promise: I'm way, WAY out of the "program." <<

>>LGATs, including the one I am involved with. . . <<

OK, which is it? What LGAT are you involved with? And how can you claim to be WAY out of the program if you are still involved with one?

Great Life Foundation -- the grad-run, non-profit that remained when the Bergers were locked out.

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Also, as EXImpact's experience is far more recent, including TIT III, I don't believe you're in a position to make recommendations about their current training.

You could recommend what they were doing 10+ years ago. But that doesn't exisit anymore.

They make a point of sharing how much of TIT has been moved into Quest. They enroll trainees into TIT during Quest.

All true, but I do stay abreast of what they're doing. Again, I don't think they're slaying chickens and getting naked in Quest. I'm guessing that it has stayed the same as it has for twenty plus years.

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>>Just because I'm objective doesn't mean I'm programmed. You can see that possibilty can't you? <<

No. I don't claim to be objective at all. I just share my experience as best I can for what it's worth.

In this moment, and for some time now, I've not felt anger toward Impact or the Bergers. They are, in my experience, criminals. People I trust report not having been paid by them, having been lied to, robbed and slandered by them. There are records to back that up.

I know for a fact that you're right.

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Even if they were selling the Holy Bible, or even giving it away just for shaking Hans' hand, based on their unbroken 20+year record of illegal and unethical business practices I would not recommend anyone buy one from them!

Your recommendation that others go there, even if only because their family is already there, does not occur as anything even close to objective to me. Far from it!

I don't hold you, or anyone, as objective, especially about this stuff. Nor do I claim to be so myself.

(BTW: I am struck that we are discussing objectivism here on the 50th anniversary of Ayn Rand's publication of Atlas Shrugged!)

Just finished re-reading The Fountainhead.

In this world of crooked businesspeople, politicians, religious leaders, etc., isn't it a little trite to expect anyone to be lilly-white. Again, the Bergers don't remotely qualify as any shade of white, but I'm just saying. . . let's be realistic here. Anyone out there can take you if you're not half-wise about keeping your own counsel.

What has been a total awakening for me is to now have first-hand experience as to how cult-vulnerable we all our. Even with a copious amount of information on the internet regarding the Bergers and their history and their crazy beliefs and trainings, people still flock to them. Check out their website -- their Quest training is booked full out to January! They're are cranking!

In the past, the training would be rocked every year or two by the breaking of a scandal about how they had taken money from someone or how they had rebelled against the Mormon Church or how Hans is a false prophet, etc.. These days, they seem to be bullet-proof.

It's been a phenomenal lesson in human nature for me.

Of course, I would rather have seen that the gal's family who started this post had stayed away from the Bergers, but now that they're there. . . What's she going to do? Divide her family. That's not a spectacular option.

In the Berger's minds, you and I both know that they think that they're 100% justified in doing what they do -- and we think we're 100% justified in opposing them. Isn't that just a little bit suspicious? Isn't it more likely that they're full of it and so are we (at least to some considerable degree?) This world is far more complicated than Yoda and Darth Vader.

I'm guessing that we're not Yoda and that they're not Darth Vader.

Yes, they seem hopelessly lost in their own saga, but aren't we all? (The only difference between them and us, perhaps, is that they're more influential and their screwed-up self-delusion effects a lot more people. And, as they've gained more power, perhaps their story has become more galvanized.)

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>>How long ago did you do the Berger training? I wonder if I know you.<<

From what you have shared, I believe it's highly likely we have indeed met in person at some time there in the past.

But for all I knowright now, you could be Sally playing some sick game here, or one of her many certain-she-is-the-Goddess minions.

Impacted

Nope. Not certain she-is-a-Goddess. Pretty certain that she's about as self-deluded as a soul can be.

By the way, I'm not just trading debate points with you here. This has been a good opportunity for me to work through some of my thoughts and feelings about this chunk of my own history.

I appreciate your input -- even those who've been ranting about how I'm an "idiot." I don't get that very often (except maybe on the freeway.)

Boonetahoe,

I would like to address a few assertions that you have made in prior posts:

1. You have stated that you are maintaining an objective perspective and yet you have seemingly rationalized numerous incongruities in your beliefs and you have exhibited the LGAT tendency to make broad unbelievable statements without providing any kind of credible reason to believe you.

For example your statement that there are 100 people who love LGATs for every 1 who hates them is obviously not true. Why would you make a statement that has no evidential backing if you are completely objective? The answer is that you would not. An objective individual looks at the evidence at hand and draws applicable conclusions. Please do not deceive yourself or think to mislead the rest of us by saying that you are an objective party because it is obvious that you are not.

2. Why have you not addressed my comments about your course of action having terrible consequences in my own real life example?

Despite my statement, which you have surely read, you continue to insist that the way for NOTImpacted and others to preserved their family relationships is to attend a few Impact seminars. Have you ever seen that work for any one? Besides myself I know 3 other individuals who followed that path to disasterous consequences. Do you have any evidcence to suggest that your idea would work or are you merely spouting off conditioned rhetoric and disregarding empirical examples of failure?

3. Your rationalization about Hans and Sally's egregious dishonesty and manipulation is truly sickening.

I'm glad you like the Fountainhead but I fail to see how Ayn Rand in any way justifies the Bergers to act or behave the way that they have. The whole point of Objectivist philosophy is the idea that rewarding the creative, the hardworking and the moral is better for society as a whole. The villains in any Randian novel are ALWAYS business people who operate dishonestly and reap rewards that they have not earned. The Bergers are objectivist villains!

Furthermore, why would an Ayn Rand novel be of any consequence in this instance? Is this just another attempt to seemingly justify your faith in LGATs by referrencing a relatively obscure book in an attempt to make yourself look more intelligent than many of the people who are disputing your statements? Why do you choose to manipulate people that way? Odds are you have decided that the ends justify the means.

I'm not going to call you an idiot but you are clearly dillusional and conditioned if you truly believe much of what you have written in this forum.

Boonetahoe,

>>The Great Life Foundation <<

Then you are far from "WAY out of the program."

As far as I am concerned, you lied when you said that.

You are in, at best, the Impact Training from 5 years ago -- like saying you are "WAY out of the program" when, in reality, you left a Burger King to work at a McDonalds (pun intended), or McOrvises.

You are right about the Bergers being sold out through January, but many other dangerous cults attract much higher numbers.

This isn't any measure of "success" that I respect, or hold as an indication of any change in their integrity, or liklihood of furture criminal behaviors.

As for Great Life, I don't know much about them except that they have former (fired) Impact trainers working there, like JJ and Mike Garnder (who I gather has left, but I'll bet will be back) and Deon and others like Anna Lee who trained under Hans and Sally. Don't you also do a firewalk in your Lift-off trainings? Care to share about that?

I know he Jubacks from TIT II, their claims of being called to "this work" in a pre-existant, marble-roomed, counsel of gods, and descriptions of Hans and Sally as their "one true family," and their sickening sharing, before their breakup, of trips out of Utah that they took together with Hans and Sally -- they are just as slimey; and the Orvis' from the old days. Apparently the excess profits from their various internet Credit Clean Up businesses, and keep the bills paid there?

And isn't your Quest trainer still married to his first (or second) wife, but now living with another woman/other women? I apologize if that's not true and is just dirt Sally wanted him slandered with. But it's commonly talked about around Impact, or at least that's what I've heard.

Great Life also seems to have recently welcomed any number of ex-Impact TIT III graduates to participate, staff, and work there as employees and bring TIT stuff into your trainings. They're trying to get more TIT IIIers to join them there. "Dump Hans and Sally but keep the best of TIT III."

That's all I need to know to stay far, far, far away from your place.

Why you would choose to be involved with any of that is, I hope you understand, a significant trust issue, not only for me, but for, I believe, everyone here.

I do wish you well,

Impacted

Boonthaoe,

>>Of course, I would rather have seen that the gal's family who started this post had stayed away from the Bergers, but now that they're there. . . What's she going to do? Divide her family. That's not a spectacular option. <<

Again where we disagree is in your apparent certainty that by doing Impact she would in reality reunite with her family -- and my certainty that there's virtually no chance that would happen.

Perhaps for a moment it might seem it had.

But haven't you seen the same long-term effects I have? Some of her family are likely to become/remain ardent TIT IIIers. Others will not. They will either quit or be thrown out. She won't be as alone anymore, but there will be a pro-Impact part of the family and an anti-Impact part within a year or two.

Hopefully they will all get kicked out soon enough, and they can reunite with her without her having to do the training.

Really, there's no way the long-term value (and I mean a year or so post Lift-off) is seen as worth $3,000.00 and a month of one's life, by anyone who doesn't keep staffing and enrolling there.

(If it were, then, Where is everybody? You claim only 1 of 100 is anti-impact. But what I notice is 1 year post-lift off only 1 or 2 of each lift off remains involved. My position is the other 90+ percent don't feel they got sufficient value out of it to remain involved.)


>>In the Berger's minds, you and I both know that they think that they're 100% justified in doing what they do <<

That was not my experience. Maybe you were not as close to them as I was/am. Late night, out of town, over dinner -- they laugh at some of the gullible rubes the get into their trainings. How they could train them to stare at a wall for a day, and their doe-eyed guru seeking worshipers would say, "It's be best training ever."

Didn't they share their disgust, and distrust, of most of their trainees with you?

Or how about how they talk about their own trainers and employees behind their backs?

If you were truly close to them, then you would at least have heard how they rip into Ward and Pamela.

Did you really never hear that?

Or Hans rip into Sally, and Sally into him (with language that would make George Patton or San Kinneson blush.)

Nope, I don't believe they feel they are noble, Gods and Godesses. My experience is they know what they are doing, could give a crap, and are laughing behind all our backs.


>>-- and we think we're 100% justified in opposing them. <<

Not there either. Sometimes I wonder. But in their world, as everything is in Divine Order all the time, I'm relatively confident that they must, if they practice what they preach, see me as their best friend.

:)

I am not 100 percent confident about "opposing them." I'm relatively certain that's not even what I am doing.

I am 100 percent confident that good comes from wholeheartedly sharing our experiences with each other and trusting the best will come from that.

>>I'm guessing that we're not Yoda and that they're not Darth Vader. <<

Well, on the first point we agree.

On the second, we almost agree.

I am certain Hans was never as pure as Aniken as a young man, Vader was never as evil as Hans at his worst, and Sally, as far as I can tell, has always been Jabba the Hut.

Impacted

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Impacted
Boonetahoe,

>>The Great Life Foundation <<

Then you are far from "WAY out of the program."

As far as I am concerned, you lied when you said that.

You are in, at best, the Impact Training from 5 years ago -- like saying you are "WAY out of the program" when, in reality, you left a Burger King to work at a McDonalds (pun intended), or McOrvises.

You are right about the Bergers being sold out through January, but many other dangerous cults attract much higher numbers.

This isn't any measure of "success" that I respect, or hold as an indication of any change in their integrity, or liklihood of furture criminal behaviors.

As for Great Life, I don't know much about them except that they have former (fired) Impact trainers working there, like JJ and Mike Garnder (who I gather has left, but I'll bet will be back) and Deon and others like Anna Lee who trained under Hans and Sally. Don't you also do a firewalk in your Lift-off trainings? Care to share about that?

There's a firewalk in the Great Life training.

And, I hope being "fired" by the Bergers isn't a badge of shame. That's a long, long list of people.

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I know he Jubacks from TIT II, their claims of being called to "this work" in a pre-existant, marble-roomed, counsel of gods, and descriptions of Hans and Sally as their "one true family," and their sickening sharing, before their breakup, of trips out of Utah that they took together with Hans and Sally -- they are just as slimey; and the Orvis' from the old days. Apparently the excess profits from their various internet Credit Clean Up businesses, and keep the bills paid there?

And isn't your Quest trainer still married to his first (or second) wife, but now living with another woman/other women? I apologize if that's not true and is just dirt Sally wanted him slandered with. But it's commonly talked about around Impact, or at least that's what I've heard.

Nope. Brett Harward is married to his wife, the woman with whom he abides and has children. He's not the only Part I trainer, either.

Also, I've worked side-by-side with the Jubacks over a long period of time and they're absolutely quality people in my book (despite the fact that they were once Berger-ites.) Weren't we all?

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Great Life also seems to have recently welcomed any number of ex-Impact TIT III graduates to participate, staff, and work there as employees and bring TIT stuff into your trainings. They're trying to get more TIT IIIers to join them there. "Dump Hans and Sally but keep the best of TIT III."

Nope. No TIT III stuff in the Great Life Training. In fact, very, very little New Age doctrine at all (not any that I can think of.) I'm not saying that there will never be, but if I have anything to say about it, Great Life will plainly label anything even quasi-religious as being religious.

I'm not a big fan of mixing religion with LGAT.

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That's all I need to know to stay far, far, far away from your place.

Why you would choose to be involved with any of that is, I hope you understand, a significant trust issue, not only for me, but for, I believe, everyone here.

I do wish you well,

Impacted

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Impacted
Boonthaoe,

>>Of course, I would rather have seen that the gal's family who started this post had stayed away from the Bergers, but now that they're there. . . What's she going to do? Divide her family. That's not a spectacular option. <<

Again where we disagree is in your apparent certainty that by doing Impact she would in reality reunite with her family -- and my certainty that there's virtually no chance that would happen.

Perhaps for a moment it might seem it had.

But haven't you seen the same long-term effects I have? Some of her family are likely to become/remain ardent TIT IIIers. Others will not. They will either quit or be thrown out. She won't be as alone anymore, but there will be a pro-Impact part of the family and an anti-Impact part within a year or two.

Hopefully they will all get kicked out soon enough, and they can reunite with her without her having to do the training.

That certainly happens a lot. But, you and I have both seen people go ten years first.

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Really, there's no way the long-term value (and I mean a year or so post Lift-off) is seen as worth $3,000.00 and a month of one's life, by anyone who doesn't keep staffing and enrolling there.

(If it were, then, Where is everybody? You claim only 1 of 100 is anti-impact. But what I notice is 1 year post-lift off only 1 or 2 of each lift off remains involved. My position is the other 90+ percent don't feel they got sufficient value out of it to remain involved.)

That's a huge logical leap. Most people create substantial value and then return to their lives in my experience. This, I believe, is true of most LGATs.

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>>In the Berger's minds, you and I both know that they think that they're 100% justified in doing what they do <<

That was not my experience. Maybe you were not as close to them as I was/am. Late night, out of town, over dinner -- they laugh at some of the gullible rubes the get into their trainings. How they could train them to stare at a wall for a day, and their doe-eyed guru seeking worshipers would say, "It's be best training ever."

Didn't they share their disgust, and distrust, of most of their trainees with you?

Or how about how they talk about their own trainers and employees behind their backs?

If you were truly close to them, then you would at least have heard how they rip into Ward and Pamela.

Did you really never hear that?

Yes, I've heard some of what you describe. I still don't think that Hans and Sally see themselves as charlatans. In fact, I think they believe that they're truly appointed by God himself to usher in some kind of new era. I believe that they're as deep in the cult as anyone.

And, at the same time, they take some pleasure in denegrating the trainees. Isn't that part of Hans' power-trip? To "break" people over his will?

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Or Hans rip into Sally, and Sally into him (with language that would make George Patton or San Kinneson blush.)

Nope, I don't believe they feel they are noble, Gods and Godesses. My experience is they know what they are doing, could give a crap, and are laughing behind all our backs.

That's an interesting perspective. If I thought that were true, it would sure be easier to despise them rather than giving them their due. That would actually be a relief -- the world would be much simpler.

But, one of the most common psychological errors that we make as human beings is to attribute pure malignancy to others while we account for all the circumstances and considerations when we weigh our own foibles. In other words, we find it easy to simplify others while we maintain that we are complicated.

If I take an objective position, I'd say that the Bergers are a complicated combination of attributes, just like the rest of us. At the end of the day, they're not people I choose to have in my life -- but that doesn't make them any less sophisticated.

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>>-- and we think we're 100% justified in opposing them. <<

Not there either. Sometimes I wonder. But in their world, as everything is in Divine Order all the time, I'm relatively confident that they must, if they practice what they preach, see me as their best friend.

:)

I'm not sure I understand you, but I'm pretty sure that the Bergers don't waste a lot of sleep worrying about "practicing what they preach."

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I am not 100 percent confident about "opposing them." I'm relatively certain that's not even what I am doing.

I am 100 percent confident that good comes from wholeheartedly sharing our experiences with each other and trusting the best will come from that.

>>I'm guessing that we're not Yoda and that they're not Darth Vader. <<

Well, on the first point we agree.

On the second, we almost agree.

I am certain Hans was never as pure as Aniken as a young man, Vader was never as evil as Hans at his worst, and Sally, as far as I can tell, has always been Jabba the Hut.

Impacted

That made me laugh.

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boonetahoe
That certainly happens a lot. But, you and I have both seen people go ten years first.

I'm calling BS on this statement. Maybe you've seen one year. Unfortunately the pattern of dishonesty in your posts makes it impossible to take anything that you say at face value. I am 100% certain that you have never seen a divided family come together for 10 years before getting divided again by the trainings. The destruction that occurs in LGAT trainings happens A LOT faster than that. People don't even stick around for 10 years. Either they pull out of get thrown out. Let's have a little bit more honesty here...

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boonetahoe
That's a huge logical leap. Most people create substantial value and then return to their lives in my experience. This, I believe, is true of most LGATs.

How have you measured this? Have you done any research on Lift-Off grads after the first year or are you just attempting to mislead the forum again my making another unsubstantiated claim?

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boonetahoe
Also, I've worked side-by-side with the Jubacks over a long period of time and they're absolutely quality people in my book (despite the fact that they were once Berger-ites.) Weren't we all?

I know Steve Juback as well and the guy is a creep. He is every bit as bad as anyone at Impact and he is worse than quite a few. Again your penchant for being dishonest in your other posts leads me to believe that you yourself are probably more like Hans than you would like to let on. How many people have you willingly and knowingly lead into destruction? How many pieces of silver have you made by offering others up to be sacrificed? Also, don't pull the "non-profit" card. There are plenty of non-profit companies that still make a lot of money for the people at the top.

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formerimpactgrad

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boonetahoe
That certainly happens a lot. But, you and I have both seen people go ten years first.

I'm calling BS on this statement. Maybe you've seen one year. Unfortunately the pattern of dishonesty in your posts makes it impossible to take anything that you say at face value. I am 100% certain that you have never seen a divided family come together for 10 years before getting divided again by the trainings. The destruction that occurs in LGAT trainings happens A LOT faster than that. People don't even stick around for 10 years. Either they pull out of get thrown out. Let's have a little bit more honesty here...

I wasn't referring to a divided family. . . I was referring to the length of time it takes "committed" graduates to be turned out of Impact. Sometimes, that takes years.

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boonetahoe
That's a huge logical leap. Most people create substantial value and then return to their lives in my experience. This, I believe, is true of most LGATs.

How have you measured this? Have you done any research on Lift-Off grads after the first year or are you just attempting to mislead the forum again my making another unsubstantiated claim?

Yes, I have in fact polled large numbers of former graduates. And, the majority of trainees asked said that they were enjoying great value from the training (and this was years later.)

Have you measured your assertion that trainees have NOT experienced value? By your standard, isn't it possible that YOU are being irresponsible with your posts.

(Or, is it only "irresponsible" on this forum to be POSITIVE about LGAT trainings while we can be NEGATIVE with reckless abandon?)

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boonetahoe
Also, I've worked side-by-side with the Jubacks over a long period of time and they're absolutely quality people in my book (despite the fact that they were once Berger-ites.) Weren't we all?

I know Steve Juback as well and the guy is a creep. He is every bit as bad as anyone at Impact and he is worse than quite a few. Again your penchant for being dishonest in your other posts leads me to believe that you yourself are probably more like Hans than you would like to let on.

Insult me all you like, but I would absolutely go to the wall with my statement that the Jubacks are quality people. I've seen years and years of tireless service on their part with virtually no external payoff. I've literally seen them pour THOUSANDS of hours of their time into service without payment or recognition. I have extensive, first-hand experience with this family spanning almost a decade. You couldn't be more wrong.

If its important to you to tear the Jubacks down (of all people,) then I'm certain your have ulterior motives for wanting to do so.

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How many people have you willingly and knowingly lead into destruction? How many pieces of silver have you made by offering others up to be sacrificed? Also, don't pull the "non-profit" card. There are plenty of non-profit companies that still make a lot of money for the people at the top.

Why is it that so many of these posts over-flow with anger? I realize that the Hans and Sally experience can be traumatic, but why is it that we must seek solace in revenge and bitterness?

I haven't made a single cent from an LGAT. What possible motive or evidence would you have to make an assertion like that? I realize that you may have cast aside the notion of "conscious living" because of the pain caused by your Impact experience, but certainly you haven't abandoned the desire to be a reasonable, empathetic human being?

"How many pieces of silver have you made by offering others to be sacrificed?" Now, you're comparing me to Judas? Unbelievable. Knowing virtually nothing about me. . . (And I'm not even defending the Bergers. Heaven help me if I were.)