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eaonderko
Is there sex? Well I defy you to invite 50 adults off for a weekend of anything and not have some of them hit it off. After 23 years in the USAF I can tell you that even in basic military training men and women found each other - even if they had to hide in a dumpster! Have I had sex at a workshop? No and I have been through 4 levels of the Love, Intimacy, and Sexuality workshops.
EAO

Hmmm, let me ask you this, did you ever see sexual contact during any of the workshops?

It is one thing to realize that people are people and things will happen, but it is quite another to try to imply that certain things do not happen in the workshop and are not part of the exercises.

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diashto
Are penises inserted into vaginas (or other orifices)? Are condoms handed out at the beginning of later levels, or are you expected to bring your own if you intend to "make your own exercise"? Are the sexual organs touched in ANY way that would rate a movie with that scene in it NC17 by the MPAA (remember, scientific films are generally R due to naked but not sexual content)? Not necessarily to orgasm, of course, I'm just curious as to just how far the exercises go.

I am not sure that this question has ever been answered. It would be easy to answer no, if that was the honest answer, but it seems to be that those who have answered have danced around the question, but the ones trying to answer are also those who are very pro-HAI.

I can not answer some of the questions and due to my ethics, I will not answer some of the questions. I am not pro-HAI, as they have many issues which are not positive and I have heard of people who have been driven off due to conflicts, but I will not violate the agreement to not discuss things. I will also say that there are many positive aspects to HAI and HAI would be much better if they were what they claimed to be. I will also add that I would have an opinion about anyone who claimed that everything was just at a R level.

Ghost -

Thank you for your input.

I believe I mentioned in one of my first posts that I felt there is always coercion, even if it is subtle. At a workshop, the participants are always told they are "at choice" - but there is still the pressure to conform to what HAI believes is the "right" choice, i.e., taking clothes off, participating in whatever exercise, etc.

I was specifically told that intercourse happened at Level 7, as an actual part of the workshop. It really didn't surprise me, considering what leads up to it.

I've heard people refer to sex as a "spiritual energy exchange" or some other such buzzword, and say you can have sex without genital contact, blah blah blah. That merely confuses the issue. People want to know whether sexual intercourse occurs at workshops, as a part of the workshop (what they do on their own time is different, provided it's NOT publicly done).

I think HAI does have some good points, I really do. At least at a Level 1. After that, I'm not so sure. Level 1 definitely deals with self-esteem, but after THAT it gets much more complicated.

You said that HAI attracts people who are "damaged" - and I think you're right. I also think it's deliberate. It's much easier to convince someone with low self-esteem, intimacy issues, etc. to go with the flow when you give them positive reinforcement, than it is to convince someone who is "healthy" to go along with things they don't agree with. It's another reason why I think the HAI participants are being deliberately groomed for group sexual activity.

My experience has only been with HAI Midwest, but that's definitely the impression that I get.

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DayDreamer
Ghost -

Thank you for your input.

You are welcome.

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DayDreamer
I believe I mentioned in one of my first posts that I felt there is always coercion, even if it is subtle. At a workshop, the participants are always told they are "at choice" - but there is still the pressure to conform to what HAI believes is the "right" choice, i.e., taking clothes off, participating in whatever exercise, etc.

Sometimes it is subtle, other times it is not. It is not just from the facilators either. A lot comes from the other people in HAI who have attended the workshops before. I am not sure of how many people notice it.

Personally, I think that the pressure violates the choice from the person. If the person was really at choice then there is no need to try to pressure them, but instead respect their choice. Unfortunately this does not seem to happen for some reason.

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DayDreamer
I was specifically told that intercourse happened at Level 7, as an actual part of the workshop. It really didn't surprise me, considering what leads up to it.

It would not suprise me, but I don't know the answer. I do know what happens at some of the lower levels. There are some really good exercises (not related to sex).

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DayDreamer
I've heard people refer to sex as a "spiritual energy exchange" or some other such buzzword, and say you can have sex without genital contact, blah blah blah. That merely confuses the issue. People want to know whether sexual intercourse occurs at workshops, as a part of the workshop (what they do on their own time is different, provided it's NOT publicly done).

It seems that those that know don't want others to know. I also think that people want to know if there is any sexual contact, not just intercourse. Again, it seems that people don't want to admit that. In part it might be because of the non-disclosure, but I get the impression by the dancing around the issue that the person does not want to be honest and say that they can't or won't say. Instead they try to make it seem like it does not happen.

I do agree with the concept of the spiritual energy exchange. I can see how it could confuse people, but it is a matter of being intimate with someone without having what is defined as sex. I don't personally think that means you should do such things with just anyone, but I think that sex is far more than just intercourse.

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DayDreamer
I think HAI does have some good points, I really do. At least at a Level 1. After that, I'm not so sure. Level 1 definitely deals with self-esteem, but after THAT it gets much more complicated.

There are still many good points after level one, but I do agree that things get added which complicates things. Perhaps it is because of a hidden agenda, or something else. It is hard to say without knowing the reasons behind things. There are many positive things, most of which are not directly sexual in nature.

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DayDreamer
You said that HAI attracts people who are "damaged" - and I think you're right. I also think it's deliberate. It's much easier to convince someone with low self-esteem, intimacy issues, etc. to go with the flow when you give them positive reinforcement, than it is to convince someone who is "healthy" to go along with things they don't agree with. It's another reason why I think the HAI participants are being deliberately groomed for group sexual activity.

I would like to think that it was not deliberate, but that is just because I would hope that HAI would be better than that. I can not disagree with what you say.

It does look to me like there is a guiding nature. I have also seen some serious issues result due to sexual relationships, with an end result of HAI people being nasty and driving a good person away. Such actions are not really acceptable when you look at what HAI is supposed to be. I have also seen HAI refused to do anything when a person did something unacceptable after a HAI event, saying that it was not part of HAI. Personally, if that person does something surrounding a HAI event, I would want to ensure that it would never happen again. I think that in part it is protecting those in control.

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DayDreamer
My experience has only been with HAI Midwest, but that's definitely the impression that I get.

My experience is elsewhere, but it seems the same for me.

It is unfortunate that some of the negative aspects harm what HAI claims itself to be. One message said that Stan Dale should clean things up, but the problem with that concept is that it assumes that he is not part of the problem. I have my opinion in that respect. I also have to wonder what will happen after Stan Dale is no longer around. I suspect that HAI will cease to exist a short time later, which is unfortunate since it could be a really good and positive organization, if it wanted to be.

Funny... I've heard some major complaints about Stan Dale and about Chip, specifically. Since they are so high up in the organization, it would seem rather unlikely that they would "clean things up." And given Stan Dale's health, it's even less likely.

I've been to Levels 1 and 2, personally. Both of them were at Camp Ronora, HAI Midwest. I dated someone I met at the Level 1 followup, and he did break some of the confidentiality by telling me specifics of what goes on at higher levels. However, he's not the only one who told me things about those higher levels, so I'm not accepting the word of one person. That particular man is still very much involved in HAI also, and thinks it's wonderful.

I did notice at both Levels I attended that there were repeaters. I can definitely see why someone may need a refresher on certain points, or would feel that they didn't work through certain things and felt the need to repeat the workshop. However, they have a huge advantage over the new participants - they already KNOW what is going to happen in the workshop as far as expectations, exercises, etc. That seems unfair in some ways. I participated in my workshops with another participant who'd been through all 7 levels repeatedly. He was also the perpetrator of some of the worst betrayal I have ever experienced. Needless to say, I was seriously hurt by it but also furious. Just because someone is still a "work in progress" doesn't mean they don't know common decency. He made a conscious choice to behave in a completely reprehensible manner. I believe he's one of the people involved in HAI who prey on others deliberately. Not exactly a stellar recommendation.

I have been told by various interns that the confidentiality is required for several reasons - one of which is because they think if people know what to expect, they are less likely to come and participate. In a way I think that's true, but it also sends another message to me. If sex (intercourse or any other) is occuring in a workshop, I WANT TO KNOW so that I can make the choice to not go. I should be able to make that choice with all the information. I don't feel that being expected to participate in sex with a stranger, or being expected to be present while others do so, is appropriate in any way.

I'm someone who firmly believes that my level of appropriate intimacy with people is different depending on the individual. What I'm willing to do and share with Diashto is definitely much more intimate and in-depth than it would be with a casual acquaintance, if you know what I mean.

I'm also very monogamous, and have no interest in poly relationships of any kind, or any of the sexual escapades that many HAI people seem to think are so wonderful. In fact, I highly resent being told that my choice of monogamy is silly, unnatural, stupid or limiting - and people have actually said as much. I deserve to be someone's one-and-only, not merely one-of. However, I've actually been told that I'm cheating myself by not being willing to explore other people. Heh.. I find it interesting that those who have said such things are involved in poly relationships themselves and have an interest in getting me in bed.

And people wonder why I think that people in HAI are being groomed for group sexual activity.

I agree with you, Ghost. Sex definitely IS more than just intercourse. Thank goodness :) But I don't want to be doing ANYTHING sexual with anyone other than Diashto, and I expect the same sort of fidelity from him. I don't see what is so wrong with that, but apparently others find it unnatural.

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DayDreamer
Funny... I've heard some major complaints about Stan Dale and about Chip, specifically. Since they are so high up in the organization, it would seem rather unlikely that they would "clean things up." And given Stan Dale's health, it's even less likely.

Complaints? Hmmm, I thought that there were no complaints, at least that is what I read from some of HAI people. BTW, the facilators who told HAI was the person's family was Chip.

I personally don't think that they think there is anything to clean up. Isn't the first step to recovery admiting that you have a problem?

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DayDreamer
I did notice at both Levels I attended that there were repeaters. I can definitely see why someone may need a refresher on certain points, or would feel that they didn't work through certain things and felt the need to repeat the workshop. However, they have a huge advantage over the new participants - they already KNOW what is going to happen in the workshop as far as expectations, exercises, etc. That seems unfair in some ways. I participated in my workshops with another participant who'd been through all 7 levels repeatedly. He was also the perpetrator of some of the worst betrayal I have ever experienced. Needless to say, I was seriously hurt by it but also furious. Just because someone is still a "work in progress" doesn't mean they don't know common decency. He made a conscious choice to behave in a completely reprehensible manner. I believe he's one of the people involved in HAI who prey on others deliberately. Not exactly a stellar recommendation.

I don't see a problem with wanting a refresher or to work on certain aspects, but I get the impression from some of the people that is not what they are there for. You can see if it you pay attention. They scurry from where they are to the area around the person that they want to do the exercise with. It is especially revealing after you find out what the exercise is, which seems to have a major factor on the scurry speed.

I agree that it is unfair and I would say not honest. If they had all those who had already taken the workshop to raise their hands so that the new people can know that, I would not have a problem with it.

From what I have seen, it seems that the people who are really into HAI are the ones to watch out for. The new people seem to be honest and open, without an agenda. Many of those in power use that position to get what they want, protect their position and abuse their position to attack others. I am not sure of how everyone wins that way, but I am not sure that is really the point, it seems to be more of getting what you want.

The real problem is that it seems that HAI does not want to do anything about those who do what you say. You can't stop everyone, but you can kick them out, unless you prefer their money.

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DayDreamer
I have been told by various interns that the confidentiality is required for several reasons - one of which is because they think if people know what to expect, they are less likely to come and participate. In a way I think that's true, but it also sends another message to me. If sex (intercourse or any other) is occuring in a workshop, I WANT TO KNOW so that I can make the choice to not go. I should be able to make that choice with all the information. I don't feel that being expected to participate in sex with a stranger, or being expected to be present while others do so, is appropriate in any way.

I know what you are saying, but I have to wonder how many would attend if they knew what was going to occur. I don't think that I would have. I got a fair bit out of it, but I am also strong enough to do only what I wanted to and to resist the pressure. Not everyone is and that is a problem.

If you don't like what is going on, you could always leave the room. That does present a problem as you get singled out. I think the more important aspect is in what HAI presents as being acceptable behaviour in "public" (around others).

There is another aspect to keeping things secret and that is that there would be people who would attend just because they know what is going to go on (like some of the repeat people). This could attract more of the wrong type of people.

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DayDreamer
I'm someone who firmly believes that my level of appropriate intimacy with people is different depending on the individual. What I'm willing to do and share with Diashto is definitely much more intimate and in-depth than it would be with a casual acquaintance, if you know what I mean.

Yes, I know what you mean and I completly agree.

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DayDreamer
I'm also very monogamous, and have no interest in poly relationships of any kind, or any of the sexual escapades that many HAI people seem to think are so wonderful. In fact, I highly resent being told that my choice of monogamy is silly, unnatural, stupid or limiting - and people have actually said as much. I deserve to be someone's one-and-only, not merely one-of. However, I've actually been told that I'm cheating myself by not being willing to explore other people. Heh.. I find it interesting that those who have said such things are involved in poly relationships themselves and have an interest in getting me in bed.

Ahhh, that is where a problem occurs. If HAI were to really believe in choice, there would not be any such comments or pressure. I agree that there seems to be pressure in this direction, as well as trying to push what they think is acceptable, which I do not agree with. Anyone who says that to you is going against what HAI is supposed to be.

I would change what you said to be you deserve what you want, since that is more generic. Those people who want other things should be able to have them. To those of us who do not agree should not be said that we are wrong.

I think the last sentence says it all. The person saying that is not interested in what you want and only interested in what they want, very selfish and showing a complete lack of respect towards you and others.

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DayDreamer
And people wonder why I think that people in HAI are being groomed for group sexual activity.

Yeah, I can see that. I did not think about that aspect, but I have say that I agree. It would be nice if more people could disconnect a nude body from sex, but if the hidden agenda is sex, then it is quite wrong and not honest.

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DayDreamer
I agree with you, Ghost. Sex definitely IS more than just intercourse. Thank goodness :) But I don't want to be doing ANYTHING sexual with anyone other than Diashto, and I expect the same sort of fidelity from him. I don't see what is so wrong with that, but apparently others find it unnatural.

:)

There is nothing wrong what that, especially for you since that is what you want. On the other hand, you should be willing to accept others not wanting that (which I think you do). There are many things which I don't care to do and I don't think are right, but I don't think that I have the right to tell others what to do. Everyone should show respect and honor the choices of others. Unfortunately this seems to be lacking in HAI. It should be easy for a person to do all the workshop with clothes on, but it is not. What does that say about honoring the choice and being at choice?

It would be great to create an organization which actually does what HAI claims. I think that people could get a lot out of it.

I was at HAI Level 7 recently, and have some observations.

First, I dislike spoilers. If you don't know what that is, see [en.wikipedia.org]).

I don't want to know what's going to happen when I watch a movie, read a book, or attend a workshop. For this reason, I'm grateful for the confidentiality agreements. Not everyone feels that way. For those who want to know what will happen in a workshop before going, HAI is probably not a good fit unless you want to work on being more comfortable with uncertainty.

Second, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that at no time at any HAI workshop I have attended have participants been directed to engage in sexual intercourse.

Third, about nudity. My observation is that most people are clothed most of the time. Some people are nude most of the time, and some people are clothed all the time. I have heard from people who are not used to nudity that they have found it liberating to doff their clothes. I have also heard from people who are used to "clothing optional" recreation where the norm is nudity that they find it liberating to be in a clothing optional environment where it really is OK to wear clothes.

There are many love and sexuality workshops where clothes are worn at all times and overt sexual conduct is prohibited. Those who are disturbed by nudity or overt sexuality would do well to choose one of those. HAI is a great fit for me, but it's not for everyone.

With love,
Steve

I am surprised by Ghost’s comment regarding not acknowledging sexuality at workshops. There is certainly sexual activity at HAI workshops and I don’t see where any of us have said otherwise. At a workshop on sexuality there SHOULD be exercises that grow our understanding of sexuality.

What I have said regarding specific questions is

1. I have never been asked officially or unofficially to have oral or vaginal sex with anyone at a HAI workshop. (NOTE: If I have not been asked officially, this means this is there is no exercise on this.)

2. I see people making a rainbow of personal choices from my own of making pretty conservative choices to some folks using any ‘create your own exercise’ time as an opportunity to be wild with people who share their interest in being wild. What I want you to hear in my words is that there is a distinction between formal exercises and the personal choices some people make.

I guess I’m not clear what one would expect to be different at an experiential sexuality course (this is in spite of my benchmarking with several other programs in CA). I would be curious whether any folks currently in the thread have found other experiential sexuality workshops that you like better or that do a better job in some way.

Siofra

Just to add a few important facts on Ghost's comment

[The second aspect is money. I think that most, if not all, of the "parties" require a donation. While the donation is somewhat optional, try not paying and see what happens. Also if you want to continue to the higher levels, it gets more expensive, if you are male, since you will need to "donate" money in order to get a gender balance.
]

1. There is a very large scholarship fund. I don't know the current amount but last year it was $100,000. The fund was created to allow people who couldn't attend otherwise to attend workshops. I know people who have applied for scholarships and found the process easy. There are people who receive scholarship money for all their workshops.

2. The statement "if you are male you will need to "donate" money in order to get a gender balance" is misleading in isolation. There is a gender balance system in the HAI office for all participants. People are taken off the men's and women's lists in the order they signed up, balancing one man for each woman. Sometimes there is a waiting list for women, more often there is one for men. People are encouraged to sign up with a friend of the opposite gender to avoid a waiting list. Some people circumvent the formal process by offering money to people who will gender balance them.

Personally, I dislike this circumventing because it puts shy men near the top of the list at a disadvantage. For this reason, I have never signed up for a workshop without taking someone off the formal waiting list.

3. On fees for HAI events, no one is ever turned away for not paying - it's not a big deal. Having produced singles events for HAI a while back, I can tell you producing HAI events can be expensive - food for the events I co-ordinated cost $3-400, venue rental was over $1000, other costs also added up. Fees for HAI events run $15-25 depending on the overhead costs. Looking at what I spend on other evenings out, it is worth that to me. If I couldn't pay, I would feel no hesitation to say "I can't pay this time." For folks manning the reception table, it would be a non-issue.

Siofra

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siofra
I am surprised by Ghost’s comment regarding not acknowledging sexuality at workshops. There is certainly sexual activity at HAI workshops and I don’t see where any of us have said otherwise. At a workshop on sexuality there SHOULD be exercises that grow our understanding of sexuality.

I find this comment quite interesting, especially when you take into account the comments below. Read the other comments and the HAI people try to downplay the direct sexual aspects. Since you should it should be, then why are you trying to minimize it?

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siofra
1. I have never been asked officially or unofficially to have oral or vaginal sex with anyone at a HAI workshop. (NOTE: If I have not been asked officially, this means this is there is no exercise on this.)

This is the type of response I find funny. In response the person says that they personally have never done this or that, but that ignores all of the rest of the people at the workshop. This also conflicts with what I have personally seen and heard at a workshop. The open style exercises ARE part of the workshop.

Answer this, have YOU ever heard someone else in the confines of the workshop or during exercises, which may or may not be in the main room, being asked, in any way, to have ANY type of sex with someone else? Don't liimit it to just you. Have the people you know who have attended a workshop told you about such events.

If it is not a big deal and if it is expected, then what is the problem with admitting it?

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siofra
2. I see people making a rainbow of personal choices from my own of making pretty conservative choices to some folks using any ‘create your own exercise’ time as an opportunity to be wild with people who share their interest in being wild. What I want you to hear in my words is that there is a distinction between formal exercises and the personal choices some people make.

While this is true, the choices are made during a workshop and reflect on the workshop. I would also say that some "choices" are encouraged, especiially by those people who have repeated the workshop and learn what they can get away with from watching others.

I don't think that you can distance the "wild" choices from the formal and informal exercises. I know that it helps to try to do that in order to claim HAI is not responsible nor encourages such things, but you have to look at the big picture and see what goes on is part of the setup by HAI.