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siofra
1. There is a very large scholarship fund. I don't know the current amount but last year it was $100,000. The fund was created to allow people who couldn't attend otherwise to attend workshops. I know people who have applied for scholarships and found the process easy. There are people who receive scholarship money for all their workshops.

That is quite a bit of money.

Could you point to one person who has received the money for ALL of their workshops? Such a person needs to have attended ALL of the workshops, including levels 4-7. Unless I was lied to by HAI people, the scholarship fund is limited to levels 1-3.

Also, the scholarship fund can't be used to help a man get a gender balance, meaning that the man has to pay more. Yes, I have seen discussions on this.

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siofra
2. The statement "if you are male you will need to "donate" money in order to get a gender balance" is misleading in isolation. There is a gender balance system in the HAI office for all participants. People are taken off the men's and women's lists in the order they signed up, balancing one man for each woman. Sometimes there is a waiting list for women, more often there is one for men. People are encouraged to sign up with a friend of the opposite gender to avoid a waiting list. Some people circumvent the formal process by offering money to people who will gender balance them.

Look at some of the discussions and requests regarding gender balance. There are women, who are not in need of money, who sell the gender balance in order to reduce the money they need to pay.

You want to be more specific, look at the numbers, especially at the higher levels or workshops. Look at the complaints in which men were taken off the list because of someone else paying for a gender balance. The fact is that someone can sign up early and not attend the workshop because of all the gender balance sales.

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siofra
Personally, I dislike this circumventing because it puts shy men near the top of the list at a disadvantage. For this reason, I have never signed up for a workshop without taking someone off the formal waiting list.

That is good. It would be nice if everyone else worked that way.

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siofra
3. On fees for HAI events, no one is ever turned away for not paying - it's not a big deal. Having produced singles events for HAI a while back, I can tell you producing HAI events can be expensive - food for the events I co-ordinated cost $3-400, venue rental was over $1000, other costs also added up. Fees for HAI events run $15-25 depending on the overhead costs. Looking at what I spend on other evenings out, it is worth that to me. If I couldn't pay, I would feel no hesitation to say "I can't pay this time." For folks manning the reception table, it would be a non-issue.

Some people won't go if they don't have the money.

Also, the HAI parties, often which are a potluck and held at a person's house, do not have those expenses, yet still have the same fees. It seems to me that people in HAI have to pay to be around each other or host a party to avoiding paying. It is quite strange to me.

Are you telling us that if the event is held at a person's house they get paid rental fees?

It would be interesting to see how often a person could get away with saying that they can't pay. I suspect soon they would be discouraged from attending.

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stevepremo
I don't want to know what's going to happen when I watch a movie, read a book, or attend a workshop. For this reason, I'm grateful for the confidentiality agreements. Not everyone feels that way. For those who want to know what will happen in a workshop before going, HAI is probably not a good fit unless you want to work on being more comfortable with uncertainty.

This is a nice concept, but how does it work with people who are retaking a workshop and already know what is going to go on? Do you like not knowing that the other person already knows what is to come and is making decisions based on that? It would be one thing if everyone did not know, but many of the people do know what is going to happen and the rest don't know that those people already know. Seems like a bit of a conflict to me.

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stevepremo
Second, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that at no time at any HAI workshop I have attended have participants been directed to engage in sexual intercourse.

Ok, so how about other sexual contact? Why do you feel the need to place the limit? Also why do you include "directed"? Is it suggested? promoted? encouraged?

Are you limitiing the concept of the "workshop" to just the main room?

This also somewhat conflicts with a statement I personally heard at a workshop, although it was said in a way that they could try to deny what it meant.

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stevepremo
There are many love and sexuality workshops where clothes are worn at all times and overt sexual conduct is prohibited. Those who are disturbed by nudity or overt sexuality would do well to choose one of those. HAI is a great fit for me, but it's not for everyone.

That is a honest comment. This means that you are admitting to overt sexual conduct at the HAI events. You don't specify what that is exactly, other than claiming that intercourse is not part of that, well, maybe, depending on how you read what you say. :)

Ghost-

I have answered questions as best I can while staying within the agreements I made as a participant regarding confidentiality. It is a fine line to walk and, however imperfect my success is, I am trying my best to provide answers while staying within my own integrity.

My approach has been a combination of speaking of my own experience and clarifying some of what I have read where it seemed clarification would provide a more accurate understanding. I am not, however, doing this as an official representative of HAI and I am not empowered to make personal decisions to put on the internet details of HAI events which have been a long term policy to keep confidential. If what I am providing isn’t all you would like, I can see that…yet it is all I can offer as an individual.

I have answers to several of your comments but I am realizing that I am unsure what you want from this discussion. Can you help me understand the bigger picture?

On the points you brought up in your last email.

1. You referred to people in posts downplaying the sexual aspects. I can see what you are referring to, yet I also see a number of places where it was acknowledged in the thread. Perhaps one reason for the downplay is that people are drawn to the workshops for a variety of reasons and for some of us – sexuality wasn’t that big a deal. I know it wasn’t for me. I came for other reasons and my main benefits were elsewhere. HAI has always acknowledged sexuality being one of the components of the curriculum.

2. I hear that you would have preferred me to write in detail about workshop activities. You ask “if it is not a big deal or if it is expected, then what is the problem with admitting it” – the problem twofold – 1) I take my commitments, including my commitments to confidentiality seriously – it is an issue of personal integrity which IS a big deal and 2) I do not make policy for HAI about what is/isn’t public.

3. I agree HAI is responsible for what happens at workshops. I think where we differ is that you apparently feel there is something “wrong” with some choices adults make or could make in the context of a workshop. I don’t take it on as my place to judge them or their choices. To me, their choices are none of my business. This is true of choices being made at any sexuality workshop I have attended (HAI or otherwise).

By choosing to attend a sexuality workshop I have already chosen to be in a place where sexual things of some sort will happen.

4. On the scholarship money, I see your point and I hadn’t thought of it as working from the definition of the person has to have attended all 7 workshops, since very few people attend all 7 levels (the workshop is only offered once a year in CA and every few years elsewhere). I also had not heard of the first 3 level limit you mentioned. I have put a call into someone on the scholarship committee to learn more and will follow up with verified facts after I hear back from him. If I was mistaken in some way, I will clarify and apologize.

5. I think we are in agreement that we wish there weren’t issues with more men than women being interested in signing up for workshops. I also hear we both dislike the unofficial gender balancing that occurs.

6. On fees for HAI events, I have a few thoughts. First off, I agree some people may choose not to go if they don’t have the money. I choose to not do many things because I don’t have the money. I don’t believe it is HAI’s responsibility to stop charging money because of these people. HAI does what it can in order to let people attend who can’t pay or who can only pay part.

I’m not familiar with the finances of HAI potlucks at people’s homes. My guess is that that some of the money goes for office overhead costs, flyers and perhaps facilitator’s fees. HAI is a small family business not a publicly subsidized agency so to me it is appropriate for HAI to charge fees and make money on some events to cover the costs of other events which run a deficit.

When you say you suspect people who would attend events over a long time without paying would be discouraged from attending, you are sharing an assumption. I have never heard of this being an issue.

I hope you've enjoyed your weekend and that these answers have helped in some way.

Wishing you well,
Siofra

I just heard back from someone on the scholarship committee. What I was told is somewhere between our two understandings about how scholarships work…

1. While technically money is available at all levels, scholarship funds are prioritized for the lower levels in order to help people do their foundation work.

2. There have been cases, including in the past year, of people receiving funding above level 3 but it is not common.

3. There are local funds in some regions with different resources and rules than the main fund which the person I spoke with handles.

4. Workshop attendees sometimes choose to help each other if help is needed to attend higher levels.

Thank you for helping me learn more about how this works. I apologize for any confusion stemming from my originally limited information on this topic.

Siofra

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siofra
By choosing to attend a sexuality workshop I have already chosen to be in a place where sexual things of some sort will happen.

See.. THIS is the part that I do not agree with at all. HAI promotes love, intimacy and sexuality workshops. To me, that meant that exercises and lecturing (for lack of a better term) regarding these aspects of interpersonal relationships would be part of the workshop. DISCUSSION about ways to deal with such topics, alternative viewpoints, etc. This does NOT in any way mean to me that sexual ACTS are to be taking place. That is something that should be private amongst consenting adults. A workshop environment where there are 30-40 other people is FAR from private, and a completely inappropriate venue. If you want to be playing sex games, go find a motel room. I don't want to see it, hear it, or be exposed to it. My sexuality is private and strictly shared with Diashto and ONLY Diashto. By the same token, other people's sexuality is not something I want to be witnessing. DISCUSSING it is one thing, witnessing it is a whole 'nother story.

DayDreamer-

I can understand your personal choice not to attend as we have discussed before. There are lots of things I try and say, “no, this isn’t for me”. Yet in my case, I just choose and move on. Your focus seems to be that HAI needs to be different from your perceptions (and assumptions about higher level workshops which you haven't attended), not just that HAI isn’t for you. I’m curious why.

Every week there are dozens of experiential sexuality and tantra classes all over the world where the types of activities you dislike take place. (I know from having attended some.) In many of these circles, HAI is considered very mild. Does it also concern you that these workshops exist or are you only concerned about HAI?

Siofra

Siofra -

If people want to attend sexuality workshops where they are having sex while swinging from the chandelier, that's their choice.

What bothers me so much about the HAI workshops is that they do not specifically state that sexual contact is likely to take place. The impression is given that the workshops DISCUSS and lecture (i.e. talk about) such topics, not that such ACTIONS are done.

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Ghost

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stevepremo
I don't want to know what's going to happen when I watch a movie, read a book, or attend a workshop. For this reason, I'm grateful for the confidentiality agreements.

This is a nice concept, but how does it work with people who are retaking a workshop and already know what is going to go on? Do you like not knowing that the other person already knows what is to come and is making decisions based on that?

I feel the same way as when I'm watching a movie with someone who has seen it before. I don't want them to make comments about what is going to happen, because I'd rather see for myself.

As for people making decisions based on what comes next (like, say, moving close to a person they'd like to do the next exercise with), I have not observed this, and it wouldn't bother me if I did. I've seen both first-timers and repeaters be pleased or disappointed with the partner they end up with for an exercise, and I have had both experiences myself. And I've found opportunities to grow and open my heart in both situations.

I've learned a lot from both first time participants and from those who are repeating a workshop.

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Ghost

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stevepremo
Second, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that at no time at any HAI workshop I have attended have participants been directed to engage in sexual intercourse.

Ok, so how about other sexual contact? Why do you feel the need to place the limit? Also why do you include "directed"? Is it suggested? promoted? encouraged?

I was responding to a specific rumor that at Level 7, they hand out condoms and there is an exericise in which the facilitators direct, suggest, or encourage sexual intercourse. I'm saying that this did not happen at the Level 7 that I just attended. I don't want to say more about what does happen because of the confidentiality agreements, which I support.

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DayDreamer
What bothers me so much about the HAI workshops is that they do not specifically state that sexual contact is likely to take place. The impression is given that the workshops DISCUSS and lecture (i.e. talk about) such topics, not that such ACTIONS are done.

Can you point to what, specifically, gave you that impression? That was not my impression at all, and I'm wondering whether HAI actually did anything to give you that impression, or if it was just an assumption that you made.

You previously said that you believe it to be inappropriate to ever have overt sexuality in a group situation. I disagree, although I do hear that you don't like it. When you say that it is inappropriate, I take that to mean that you take this as a universal value rather than your personal preference. In that case, I can see why you would assume that sexual acts would not occur during the workshop unless specifically told otherwise, even in an experiential workshop on love, intimacy and sexuality.

As I said, there are many sexuality workshops in which it is explicitely stated that clothes are required and overt sexual acts are prohibited. My assumptions are different from yours. I assume that unless that disclaimer is present, there may well be an option for nudity and overt sexuality to occur during the workshop.

This is unrelated to the discussion, but I wonder... am I the only person in this discussion who gives his real name and stands by his statements, rather than hiding behind anonymity?

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siofra
I have answers to several of your comments but I am realizing that I am unsure what you want from this discussion. Can you help me understand the bigger picture?

Quite simple, honesty. It is quite interesting when a person says "I have never had that happen to me", instead of "I have never seen or heard of that happening". The response can be limited so as to be deceptive. I could answer the questions in the same way, but what I have seen and heard would conflict with the impression I would give if I did that.

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siofra
1. You referred to people in posts downplaying the sexual aspects. I can see what you are referring to, yet I also see a number of places where it was acknowledged in the thread. Perhaps one reason for the downplay is that people are drawn to the workshops for a variety of reasons and for some of us – sexuality wasn’t that big a deal. I know it wasn’t for me. I came for other reasons and my main benefits were elsewhere. HAI has always acknowledged sexuality being one of the components of the curriculum.

I think that people have a different impression of information about a topic and actual sexual conduct happening with strangers. HAI says that it is clothing optional, so why not mention that overt sexual conduct will occur? The term is from another person :)

I think that the choice to downplay this goes far beyond the reasons you mention. In my opinion the places it was acknowledged was more of a mistake and not something that people want to be open about. That again is my point. Either be open and honest or don't say anything. Don't try to be deceptive.

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siofra
2. I hear that you would have preferred me to write in detail about workshop activities. You ask “if it is not a big deal or if it is expected, then what is the problem with admitting it” – the problem twofold – 1) I take my commitments, including my commitments to confidentiality seriously – it is an issue of personal integrity which IS a big deal and 2) I do not make policy for HAI about what is/isn’t public.

You hear what you want to hear and it is not what I prefer. As I said, don't try to give the wrong impression, don't be deceptive. If you don't want to say, then don't say anything.

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siofra
3. I agree HAI is responsible for what happens at workshops. I think where we differ is that you apparently feel there is something “wrong” with some choices adults make or could make in the context of a workshop. I don’t take it on as my place to judge them or their choices. To me, their choices are none of my business. This is true of choices being made at any sexuality workshop I have attended (HAI or otherwise).

Again you choose to read what you want and try to place it on me. I think that people could to inappropriate things, which is not limited to workshops. It is true that a person could do something which adversely affects another person. I also think that the "choice" to try to pressure someone is wrong. Do you think that pressuring someone is wrong?

One problem I see with HAI is a refusal to allow someone to be at choice due to the pressure placed on them to do that HAI wants them to do.
By choosing to attend a sexuality workshop I have already chosen to be in a place where sexual things of some sort will happen.

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siofra
5. I think we are in agreement that we wish there weren’t issues with more men than women being interested in signing up for workshops. I also hear we both dislike the unofficial gender balancing that occurs.

Yes, that is true. I also think that HAI should take an active role in trying to correct some of these issues, even though they need not do so. HAI should do what is right, not just what they have to.

The selling of gender balance would end if you took the people from the list and did not allow people to match up, which could prevent a person from going who had signed up earlier. This is something which HAI controls, but wants to distance themselves from it so that they can claim that they are not responsible. Lack of action is also a choice.

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stevepremo
As for people making decisions based on what comes next (like, say, moving close to a person they'd like to do the next exercise with), I have not observed this, and it wouldn't bother me if I did. I've seen both first-timers and repeaters be pleased or disappointed with the partner they end up with for an exercise, and I have had both experiences myself. And I've found opportunities to grow and open my heart in both situations.

Maybe you should pay more attention to see what happens.

It bothers me because the person that they are selecting to target has no idea of what is happening. That is dishonest to me. What would you say to the woman who was targeted for a more sexual exercise by a repeat person if she found out what was really going on?

While you don't like people who spoil things for you, I don't like people who take advantage of the information they have for their own benefit and end up abusing others due to this. Yes, I think it is abuse.

Some repeat people are not trying to play games, others are.

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stevepremo
I was responding to a specific rumor that at Level 7, they hand out condoms and there is an exericise in which the facilitators direct, suggest, or encourage sexual intercourse. I'm saying that this did not happen at the Level 7 that I just attended. I don't want to say more about what does happen because of the confidentiality agreements, which I support.

Ok, so let's split this apart. Do they hand out condoms? Do they promote, in any way, for people to have sexual intercourse?

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DayDreamer
What bothers me so much about the HAI workshops is that they do not specifically state that sexual contact is likely to take place. The impression is given that the workshops DISCUSS and lecture (i.e. talk about) such topics, not that such ACTIONS are done.

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stevepremo
Can you point to what, specifically, gave you that impression? That was not my impression at all, and I'm wondering whether HAI actually did anything to give you that impression, or if it was just an assumption that you made.

Does it really matter? She is telling you her opinion and impression, to which you are basically saying that she is wrong because you did not have that impression. I never had the impression that sexual acts would occur. HAI never gave the impression that it would.

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stevepremo
My assumptions are different from yours. I assume that unless that disclaimer is present, there may well be an option for nudity and overt sexuality to occur during the workshop.

Really? So you would assume that group sex would or could occur because there is no mention that it prohbited? Why does HAI mention that the workshop is clothing optional? So that people are warned. Why are there no warning from other things?

There are classes about sexuality in schools, but that does not mean that overt sexuality will occur. It seems to me that your view is to support an anything goes mentality.

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stevepremo
This is unrelated to the discussion, but I wonder... am I the only person in this discussion who gives his real name and stands by his statements, rather than hiding behind anonymity?

Why do you question others choice in this matter? There are many reasons, as I am sure that you are aware. This is one of the things that I find offensive from HAI. Others have made a choice to not use their real name, yet you refuse to honor that. Perhaps those people can be honest, completely honest, when they do that since they won't have to fear it will get back to others.