Boy, you don't check in for a while, and the thing just takes off.

DayDreamer, This cultist would enjoy your company at any workshop, but is perfectly happy with you traveling your own path, wether that involves HAI or not.

My wife and I are really enjoying it, learning a lot, and hope to become interns some day.

Interesting comment about high drama people, but letting someone go like that could be very hard. :( I'm one who would try and try and try to repair things somehow, probably more than I ought to.

I try to repair things too, even when I probably shouldn't. I guess a part of that is the eternal optimist in me.... but another part is that I firmly believe, in human relationships, if BOTH parties want something to work and put effort into it, it WILL work. They just both have to want it to, and have to work at it. Nothing worth having is ever easy.

Trying is a great thing....up to a point.

Just for point of reference, one of the situations I gave up on was my ex-husband. After 12 years of marriage and 14 years of my trying to make things amiable post marriage (including my turning down alimony to make it a smoother co-parenting relationship).... his repeated refusal to work with a counselor or mediator, his unwillingness to treat me as well as he would a stranger and his "out of the blue" vicious blastings left me feeling like an emotional outhouse for him. A counselor I work with strongly suspects him of having a borderline personality disorder (after reading his written communications to me) and being incapable of treating me well because of it. After 26 years of trying, I'm OK with letting this one go, especially now that our kids are grown.

The other person I stepped back from has repeatedly lied to me and manipulated me. Since I can't tell when he is doing so and can't trust him not to do so (he has a long history of doing this with others), stepping back from any connection feels like loving myself.

Yes, there is sorrow over the situations with them and I have cried a number of tears. But stepping back still feels like the best of the options open to me.

Siofra

Liars and manipulators are on my short list as well. I don't want them in my life. Betrayal is NOT something I'll forgive easily, and it's something I NEVER forget. When the source is someone who is supposed to love me, it's that much worse and that much more likely to have a very quick, very negative consequence. Out of my life, completely and quickly.

I seem to have a higher tolerance for it than most, though.

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karenb
But nudity does make one more vulnerable, and not just metaphorically. If you are with strangers or with anyone not your doctor/family/lovers naked, especially if you are female, you are putting yourself at risk of unwanted sexual stuff.

[b:2a17d1df74]Count me as one of the people who would have chickened out [/b:2a17d1df74]if I had paid attention in advance to the fact that the workshop I was signed up for was taking place at a "clothing optional" resort. Somehow, I just breezed right past that fact revealed in the literature I read. Of course, when I looked for it after my workshop, it was there in black and white. Must have been some kind of Freudian block.

[b:2a17d1df74]BTW, not all HAI workshops are clothing optional[/b:2a17d1df74] -- you can take your pick. [b:2a17d1df74]Some HAI workshops,[/b:2a17d1df74] such as their [b:2a17d1df74]day long "Pathways to Intimacy", and their weekend Hotel "Couples" workshops are [i:2a17d1df74]explictly NOT clothing optional[/i:2a17d1df74],[/b:2a17d1df74] and I would recommend those to anyone who wants some of the HAI experiences without seeing anyone naked!

Anyway, before I went to my first [b:2a17d1df74]HAI Love, Intimacy and Sexuality [/b:2a17d1df74] weekend workshop, [b:2a17d1df74]my prejudices were also "that nudity makes one more vulnerable, and would expose me to unwanted sexual stuff" [/b:2a17d1df74]and I probably would have [b:2a17d1df74]avoided[/b:2a17d1df74] going to some workshop where I might [i:2a17d1df74]see [/i:2a17d1df74]naked people, and I certainly would have never considered choosing to [i:2a17d1df74]be[/i:2a17d1df74] naked for part of the time in front of a bunch of strangers. Yet, despite those prejudices, I am now glad I was "exposed" to that situation.

Here is what I [i:2a17d1df74]"discovered"[/i:2a17d1df74] for myself by going to this workshop. I don't say [i:2a17d1df74]"learned"[/i:2a17d1df74], because that might imply that they [i:2a17d1df74]"teach"[/i:2a17d1df74] what I discovered. But [i:2a17d1df74]teaching dogma is not really their method.[/i:2a17d1df74] Their method is really about [i:2a17d1df74]offering you a number of thought provoking experiences[/i:2a17d1df74], and then it is up to you what you take away from those experiences. You can partake of or decline any experience or exercise you don't want.

Another way of saying this is: [i:2a17d1df74]their workshops are more like a [b:2a17d1df74]buffet [/b:2a17d1df74]than a [b:2a17d1df74]prix fixe[/b:2a17d1df74] meal.[/i:2a17d1df74] You choose what you want to take. [i:2a17d1df74]Their goal is to offer you many choices.
[/i:2a17d1df74]
In the workshop I attended, the nudity was really just one of many new experiences we were each invited to choose from; and we all made different choices. Some people were naked some of the time, and some people chose to never take off a stitch of clothing all weekend.

But even if you choose to remain clothed the whole time, there are actually still some things one might gain merely from seeing that some others made a different choice. Sometimes I find I learn a lot about myself just by seeing what I choose, and what I don't.

[b:2a17d1df74]What I got from seeing some people naked for part of a weekend was not what I would have predicted.[/b:2a17d1df74]

But I guess if you already know everything that the workshop is going to teach you there is no point in going.

Here is what I discovered from my nudity experience at my workshop:

1) I discovered that to achieve any real meaningful level of connection with someone that I don't know I have to start by [i:2a17d1df74]trusting [/i:2a17d1df74]them. To trust them I had to be able to see that [i:2a17d1df74]they are vulnerable[/i:2a17d1df74], because I wouldn't allow myself to be that open and vulnerable if I don't think they are that vulnerable too.

My unwillingness to be more vulnerable in front of strangers was getting in the way of my developing new relationships of any kind, even deepening friendships.

Instead of being vulnerable, I would play this secret game of [i:2a17d1df74]"chicken"[/i:2a17d1df74] with each stranger I met. Our words were unspoken, but if you could read our thoughts it might go like this:

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[i:2a17d1df74][b:2a17d1df74]Me:[/b:2a17d1df74] "okay, be vulnerable in front of me and then I will open up and see if I want to me more verbally intimate with you",

[b:2a17d1df74]Stranger: [/b:2a17d1df74]"Why don't you go first? You be vulnerable, and then I'll open up."

[b:2a17d1df74]M:[/b:2a17d1df74]"No, YOU go first! Be my guest, after you."

[b:2a17d1df74]S:[/b:2a17d1df74]"I couldn't be so impolite: ladies first -- I must insist."

[b:2a17d1df74]M: [/b:2a17d1df74]"No, you go first; I don't mind, after all, age before beauty ;-)"

[b:2a17d1df74]S:[/b:2a17d1df74] "ah no, you go first. Pearls before swine. ;-)"

[b:2a17d1df74]M: [/b:2a17d1df74]"Oh, never mind! this is getting much too difficult."[/i:2a17d1df74]

Now you are all probably laughing at me by this point, going: [i:2a17d1df74]"What a dumb blonde! Everyone knows you have to risk to start a relationship."
[/i:2a17d1df74]
Well, I knew that intellectually, and I thought that knowing it intellectually was enough. But that wasn't my habitual way of behaving when meeting new people. Basically, by playing chicken with them, I was denying myself the things I wanted (more love and more intimacy in my life) by refusing to be vulnerable first.

During the nudity experience I found it was much easier to get to know the other person on a deeper level, because I could SEE that they were vulnerable (naked) too. Both of us were risking. Once I got this point on a visceral rather than intellectual level and I practiced being vulnerable first (or simultaneously), I was able to build up a new habit that works even with clothed people outside the workshop! :-)

Now it is much easier for me to meet people, open up, and I am getting more love and intimacy in my life that I was missing before.

[b:2a17d1df74]Obviously, being nude in front of strangers is not the only way one might discover this insight concerning vulnerability; it just happened to be the way I discovered it (to my surprise).[/b:2a17d1df74]

2) The second "a ha!" discovery I got from the nudity experience, I don't think I could have realized without that experience. This discovery concerns my pre-existing belief that [i:2a17d1df74]being naked in front of someone means "putting yourself at risk of unwanted sexual stuff."

Yes, outside the workshop this is a very real risk. [/i:2a17d1df74] [b:2a17d1df74]For many men, [i:2a17d1df74]Naked = Ready for Sex.[/i:2a17d1df74][/b:2a17d1df74] And then I realized: how could it be any other way?

I mean, [b:2a17d1df74]if the only time a guy sees a naked woman is when he is about to have sex with her[/b:2a17d1df74], then duh! [b:2a17d1df74]he is going to make the association that if a woman is naked in front of me, then obviously she wants to have sex with me, so I should come on to her. [/b:2a17d1df74]

Of course! [b:2a17d1df74]It is like Pavlov's dogs! [/b:2a17d1df74] By only being naked in front of men when we want sex with them we have [b:2a17d1df74]operantly conditioned[/b:2a17d1df74] them to want sex when they see us naked! And society has been conditioning them like this for years!

The only way we are going to break men of their [b:2a17d1df74]conditioned response[/b:2a17d1df74] is if we [b:2a17d1df74]give men more experiences where they see naked women who [i:2a17d1df74]don't[/i:2a17d1df74] want to have sex with them.[/b:2a17d1df74]

I'll admit I was pretty prudish about being naked or even topless before. I would always wear a one piece tank suit if I was getting in a hot tub or beach.

I don't feel the need to be naked all the time now, but I have realized that sometimes when it is hot ([i:2a17d1df74]like in a hot tub, ya know?[/i:2a17d1df74]), it is a lot more comfortable not wearing a top or suit -- if you can feel safe that you aren't inviting unwelcome come ons. The fact that I give myself a choice now, regardless of which choice I make, is very empowering

3) That brings me to the last thing I discovered from my nudity experience in the workshop. [i:2a17d1df74]The HAI leaders and staff did an excellent job of making the workshop [b:2a17d1df74]a very safe place [/b:2a17d1df74]for me [/i:2a17d1df74]to discover these insights while being naked in front of people I didn't know well.

I observed that many of the men who had attended these HAI workshops before (including all the men on the support team) had already learned that "naked" does [b:2a17d1df74]not [/b:2a17d1df74]mean "wants to be approached sexually"!

[b:2a17d1df74]So obviously, if these guys could learn it, so could other men!!! [/b:2a17d1df74]

[i:2a17d1df74]Aside: Maybe such training should be manditory before men are issued their sexual equipment. ;-)[/i:2a17d1df74]

Of course, there were men there for their first workshop for whom this was indeed a new learning experience, just as it was for me. It was their first time being deprogrammed from years of operant conditioning and it took some work for them to get to the level of the other men. But I think they will find it is worth it!

So, yeah, not having learned that "naked" != "wants sex" yet, these men might make some suggestive remark or something at first, but they very quickly discover that women have a right to say no to unwelcome sexual innuendo or advances.

And some of more passive or insecure women (okay, probably just me) got some practice saying "no" to an unwanted advance without feeling like maybe I did something that led them on.

Well, maybe I did do something that triggered sexual responses [i:2a17d1df74](stimulus)[/i:2a17d1df74] in their brain -- but, hey I'm not a mind reader, and even if I was, whatever reaction they have [i:2a17d1df74](their response)[/i:2a17d1df74] is their problem, not mine!

Operant Conditioning is not a valid excuse! [b:2a17d1df74]Whether a woman is naked or clothed, unwanted touching, or unwanted sexual attention, is just not okay! Learn to ASK for permission, guys!
[/b:2a17d1df74]

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karenb
Or does this HAI group think everyone should always be 'access all areas' to everyone else?
Love
Kath

[b:2a17d1df74]If a woman is naked, it doesn't mean she is 'access all areas' to everyone; It just means she is naked, nothing more![/b:2a17d1df74]

Seeing flesh is not the same as having access rights to it! Get a clue! (I did, and I've found it comes in handy every now and again).


In short, I went to my HAI [i:2a17d1df74]Love, Intimacy and Sexuality[/i:2a17d1df74] Workshop as a ditzy blonde: clueless, shy, insecure, prudish, unconfident and lonely, and I came out changed.

Okay, honesty forces me to admit I am still blonde, and probably just as ditzy as when I went to the workshop; but at least I'm a lot more confident, open, and finding it easier to connect more deeply and meaningfully with all kinds of people: men, women, children, friends, family and yeah, maybe even in a sexual relationship.

[b:2a17d1df74]I hope that this isn't coming across as a sales pitch.[/b:2a17d1df74] Because I have no idea what YOU might get from the many different experiences they offer you over the course of the workshop. You can always opt out of any exercise you don't want to do -- no questions asked.

You might well opt out of some exercise that I did, or do one that I opted out of. For all I know, you may have already discovered all that you could learn there in some other way. So really there is nothing for me to sell.

I am just telling you what I got from these experiences, and I am trying to stress that I found that the experience that had the greatest effect was not what I expected it to be.

[b:2a17d1df74]As for the "annoying jargon" that was complained about;[/b:2a17d1df74] I think this is just a risk for any experience based workshop. The workshop experiences are complex, deep and experiential not verbal. But if you and I have a common shared experience we can recall a lot of that complexity in just a word or two by using a common jargon. And if those experiences were as significant for you as they were for me, you may well want to have a conversation about them with me.

And for anyone who hasn't had that experience this kind of "inside reference" jargon is almost always annoying, because in a sense you are excluded from the conversation -- but how could it be otherwise if they haven't shared the experience?

Just another free opinion. I have no connection to HAI, other than attending some of their workshops and other activities.

Holly [i:2a17d1df74]"This brain is marked 'dry clean only'"[/i:2a17d1df74]

[i:2a17d1df74]P.s. If you are imagining that I wrote this post in the nude, and you think that means I want sex with you and that you should send me some suggestive IMs or emails, [b:2a17d1df74]then shame on you![/b:2a17d1df74][/i:2a17d1df74]

Holly, don't worry about suggestive PMs. You can't even get PMs until you've had significantly more posts.

I'm glad that you found HAI to be something worthwhile for you. Level 1 was a very good experience for me. Level 2, however, was not - and I have no interest in participating in further levels. There have been too many people who have said/done things that I simply cannot find acceptable. Those who matter to me are still in my life, and I can avoid the others easily enough.

I still don't believe that nudity is needed or should even be an option at a workshop like this. I don't have a problem seeing other people naked. I used to be a NUDIST. My problem is with being naked in front of others. That is something that is reserved for the man in my life. Period.

HAI workshops are essentially a weekend of intensive personal and group therapy. These people participating are often very vulnerable already, and asking them to take their clothes off only contributes to that. I would think that HAI would not WANT participants to feel inhibited, and when being nude, that often happens.

If I am nude, it is not for other people's entertainment (except perhaps my boyfriend in the correct context). At a workshop, nudity is a DISTRACTION for many, not a way of saying "I know you, you're just like me." Sure, many people at workshops can be nude without any problems or personal agenda. The problem is that there ARE people at workshops with a sexual agenda, and I don't think they should be fed by thrusting nude people in their direction.

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DayDreamer
I'm glad that you found HAI to be something worthwhile for you. Level 1 was a very good experience for me. Level 2, however, was not - and I have no interest in participating in further levels. There have been too many people who have said/done things that I simply cannot find acceptable. Those who matter to me are still in my life, and I can avoid the others easily enough.

I respect your choices! And by no means would I suggest to anyone that HAI is the only place you can learn these things. And if you have found what you want elsewhere, there really is no reason to invest the time.

My personal experience was that at each higher level workshop there were fewer and fewer men who were there looking for someone to pick up, and more and more who were there who had learned to be respectful.
I think that some men give it a try for 1, 2 or even 3 levels and then find that it is awfully expensive in time and money to get turned down by so many naked women because they don't really understand how to treat women with respect!

It is also true that at higher and higher levels the people who go can be more and more excited about what they get from it, and I can see how that may give the appearance that these people are a cult -- however, I think this is just the way people are when they find anything that gives them pleasure -- by that definition a chocoholic = chocolate cultist.

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I still don't believe that nudity is needed or should even be an option at a workshop like this. I don't have a problem seeing other people naked. I used to be a NUDIST.

I don't know if even the HAI organizers would say that it is always "needed" by each participant. I doubt that they would say that anything they offer is always "needed" by everyone. I think they would say it is a tool, and just one in a large toolbox, for helping people address certain issues. Not everyone has those issues, and even among the people that do, some will be more efficient for one person and less for another person.

For me, at that moment in my life, it was transformative. On the other hand I had never been a nudist. So perhaps that contributes to the difference in value to us.

Also, as I noted earlier, not all workshops involve nudity. Some do and some don't. If you think you want exposure to the concepts they have to teach but don't want to be exposed to so naked flesh, consider taking their "Pathways to Intimacy" or "Hotel Couples" workshops which do not involve nudity.

And certainly HAI isn't the only organization where you can learn these things. And some of the others don't involve nudity. What I do like about the HAI leadership (separate in my mind from people who just attend the workshops) is that they treat people with respect. I didn't get that vibe from other groups such as Landmark, but again, that is probably just me.

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My problem is with being naked in front of others. That is something that is reserved for the man in my life. Period.

As I'm sure you have heard, you are at choice about that. One of my friends has gone through entire workshops fully clothed. Not seeing others naked is harder to do without leaving. Nevertheless, if you felt pressured about that, whether due to internal or external influences, then I think it is great that you exercise your choice not to be there! (plus you save money not being there).

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Sure, many people at workshops can be nude without any problems or personal agenda. The problem is that there ARE people at workshops with a sexual agenda, and I don't think they should be fed by thrusting nude people in their direction.

I used to believe that, but now I respectfully disagree. I've just come to the conclusion that some people act that way out of habit - they haven't really thought about it because it has always been true for them before that being naked means ready for sex.

For those people, I think the opportunity to break the habit through deconditioning can be good.

I think part of our difference in view in this respect may have to do with our views on the relative number of men who can and will learn these skills given this kind of practice. I have this belief that there are a great many men who given such habit breaking experiences might break that societal conditioning, and I think that would be a better world for all of us. I own that this is just my belief and that there is no evidence to back it up. Maybe it is partly just hope. I don't see any other ways of directly breaking such conditioning, and I hate just accpeting that this is how it always has been, so this is how it always must be.

I may be reading too much into DayDreamer's posts, but I sense that she sees the men she has met there who have this problem are far less likely to change and learn to break those habits. Or perhaps her estimates of how many men will learn to change are equally as high as my beliefs, but she just doesn't want to be part of teaching them. And I don't think that anyone should have to put up with such people if they don't want to.

I think that at some level no woman [i:b0ec9d24af]wants [/i:b0ec9d24af]to sign up for such a huge responsibility and such annoyance during the learning process. But if no women are

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willing

contribute to helping teach this to men, then I fear we will always have to put up with it.

I guess I am just sharing a lot about my hopes and my fears more than about the specifics of HAI. The HAI workshops I attended seem to have provided me some new tools for relating to people that I lacked before I went there, and they made it safe enough for me to try out the tools to see how I could use them. And for that I am grateful but also now content that I have enough tools for the present and don't need to go back for more on that regard. And I do hope that one way or another men will learn to break this conditioning that doesn't serve them.

habitually yours, --holly :-)

I have read most of the responses in this thread and while this message is from the start, I think it is important to reply to some messages. I read this thread quite some time ago and was trying to decide whether to reply to some of the messages. I decided to because I think that some of the messages were deceptive. While the responses were accurate, it did not lead the person reading to see the truth. This is to not imply this relates to this message, it is just an introduction.

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dbvanhorn

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I can tell you that there's nothing I've seen that's coercive in any way.
There's no books or tapes or other expensive junk to buy.
There's no pressure to keep going, other than what I'd expect from friends who would want to share a good thing.
/quote]

I disagree with the coercive part. It simply is not true in my opinion. While some of the coercive aspects are subltle, some are not. To be quite blunt, one of the major aspects which relates to this is the clothing "optional" part. While you can keep your clothes on, there is a fair bit of pressure to get you to do otherwise, which to me violates the concept of choice. Yes, you have a choice, but it is wrong to keep pressuring someone to do what you want. There are other coercive things I have seen too.

The second aspect is money. I think that most, if not all, of the "parties" require a donation. While the donation is somewhat optional, try not paying and see what happens. Also if you want to continue to the higher levels, it gets more expensive, if you are male, since you will need to "donate" money in order to get a gender balance.

There is also some pressure to keep going, so that HAI gets more money from you.

More in response to other messages.

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dbvanhorn
Maybe the reason there isn't much negative out there, is because there isn't much negative? Occam's razor?
...
And as long as that's done honestly and up front, what's the problem?

I am curious, just where are people suppose to post their negative comments? Perhaps they don't want to since they don't want to be associated with HAI. There are many reasons, but I can tell you that there are negative comments about HAI, but not typically made public.

Honestly is important, but I don't think that many people in HAI are honest, at least in my opinion. Is it honest to repeat a workshop, not telling this to any of the new people, knowing what exercises are to be done and specifically trying to be at the right place with the right person for certain exercises?

The lack of disclosure is not being honest nor up front and that is the problem.

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dbvanhorn
[
One of the hallmarks of a cult, is insularity. They want you to only look to them for answers, and they sometimes punish their members for allowing outside thoughts/information in. (scientology)

That's not the case with hai. At no time were we told or pressured in any way to cut off communication with others, or to only look to hai.

Perhaps not in the workshop that you attended, but I saw a facilators tell a person that HAI was her family and to not deal with one parent anymore. The sad fact behind this was that I thought that the facilator was completely off-base and did not see what was really going on. This person had/has a low self-opinion, so when something happened it was assumed that it was something about this person, rather than the parent being ashamed of their behavior. When someone refuses to look at you after getting told that they were behaving badly, it can be that they are ashamed of their behaviour or that they are upset with the person. I personally think that the parent was ashamed of their behaviour, based on the story. I regret not saying something, but there is pressure to conform to the facilators at the workshop.

BTW, this is not to say that there is not many positive aspects to HAI, because there are. Unfortunately HAI seems to attract many "damaged" people, which can create a problem. I think that if HAI actively tried to not be a family to people, it would be better.

It is quite hard to say things without being specific and violating the rules.