siofra wrote:

"I opted out of an exercise at a non-HAI sexuality workshop that involved hand jobs so that gives you some idea where my boundaries are."

Hand jobs???!!!

Gee whiz--sounds like a sex act to me.

Excuse me--I now see that siofra said "non-HAI" workshop. I apologize for the misreading.

However, I would be curious to know if this non-HAI workshop was taught by persons connected with HAI. The facilitators often teach workshops, which are advertised on the HAI Web site.

Also, in the Northeast, two tantra pujas have sprung up that are facilitated by HAI people and--at least one of them--claims to be based on tantra workshops that HAI taught at one point and does involve group sex situations, rather than couples. I attended that group once and was very uncomfortable with the emphasis on switching partners, rather than building a deeper sexual understanding with your own chosen partner.

The workshop which had the hand jobs had no affiliation with HAI, direct or indirect. The facilitators had heard of HAI but had never attended a HAI event. The philosophy of these workshops was radically different from HAI in many ways which left me appreciating HAI more (i.e. 1) nothing in the set up for the exercise told us we were at choice. 2) Several people were very distressed afterwards and conversation about their distress was truncated.) At HAI, choice is drilled into us even at the upper levels and conversations like this one would not be shut down as they were by this organization.

I get when I choose to attend a sexuality workshop I need to be open to there being sexual activities (duh!) including some I may not be comfortable with. My issue wasn't with the activities, it was with the organization not making room for the human dynamics of what was happening. It felt amazingly dishonoring and left me grateful to HAI for teaching me to listen to my internal voice and to have the self love to say "no, this isn't for me".

Yes, some HAI facilitators offer private seminars. All seminars they offer are non-sexual and are not even clothing optional (e.g. communications, meditation, relationships & financial issues, aging...). Peter's meditation class is a wonderful class. I have also head nothing but raves about Anne's classes. She is launching a new one on aging this month that sounds very timely for a lot of us.

On the Tantra workshops, my experience is that different tantra teachers use different approaches ranging from only accepting intact couples for workshops to facilitating the kind of exposure to multiple people you describe. My own hit is there isn't a good/bad aspect to it, you just have to know what you prefer and pick your tantra teachers accordingly.

Siofra

Daishto-

Thank you for your compliment. No apology needed on the raciness…at least not to me.

The curiosity you shared is what everyone going through the workshops has. (It is also a great area for sexual fantasies!) I cannot answer several of your questions directly without breaking agreements I have made both as a participant and as a team member. I’m also not sure how your questions relate to this forum which is exploring organizations from the perspective of whether they are toxic cults. Whether a sexuality workshop explores aspects of sexuality A, C & E or aspects B, D & F doesn’t really matter. If one is going to a sexuality workshop, one expects some of these things to be covered and most would feel gypped (legitimately so) if they didn’t learn more about sexuality before they left.

Here are the things I can tell you:
EVERY sexuality course I have ever taken has had condoms available. This includes Tantra classes. It is held as a social responsibility to have condoms available to prevent the spread of disease, REGARDLESS of the planned activities. Personally, although I have never needed to use one, I am grateful for the proactivity on ALL sexual educators’ parts.

I have never had a penis inserted into my vagina or mouth at a HAI workshop and this includes by a long term monogamous partner. I have never been asked by anyone (officially or unofficially) to do anything in this area in an exercise.

I believe, growing up we learn about sexuality as giving/taking certain key points (e.g. intercourse, oral sex on the man, oral sex on the woman, feeling below the woman’s waist, feeling below the man’s waist, etc.) It is very goal focused and very orgasm focused. This is very different from my experience of HAI workshops. I’ve learned a ton about sexuality but it is in a very different context than anything I knew before it.

I’ll try to find words…it isn’t about my jumping through any one else’s hoops. It isn’t about climaxing or bringing others to climax. It is about learning to recognize our own unique paths and honoring them. It is also about learning to care for others while taking care of ourselves.

For me, my sexual path is waiting years between partners, then having a wonderful sexual life when I am in relationship. It isn’t the path I was raised on (much more conservative) or the one reflected around me in much of Northern CA (much more open) …it is just what feels right for me. HAI workshops and the HAI facilitators in private coaching have encouraged me to honor what works for me instead of changing to do things that don’t feel right to me. I feel grateful for the reinforcement I have received.

Sorry it took more words than you requested….

Siofra

Quote

I’m also not sure how your questions relate to this forum which is exploring organizations from the perspective of whether they are toxic cults. Whether a sexuality workshop explores aspects of sexuality A, C & E or aspects B, D & F doesn’t really matter. If one is going to a sexuality workshop, one expects some of these things to be covered and most would feel gypped (legitimately so) if they didn’t learn more about sexuality before they left.

Well, the last few questions that I had weren't necessarily to identify it as a cult, it was more to put all the facts and/or opinions on the table, so that anyone searching for information on this particular organization could see what potentially does or does not happen.

As far as being a cult.. well.. many people in cults (as have been previously discussed) dont associate with those that are not "into it" with them. To me, thats no different than someone saying they wont date outside their religion, or in broader terms, their race. There's always something in a core belief, a physical attribute, or a previous predjudice that immediately disallows consideration for one particular "type" of person.

I'm reasonably certain that the HAI facilitators dont make a mandate of "Thou must not date anyone who has not been to at least Level 1".. however it's a common theme that i've heard from this thread and some of the others that I've spoken to.

This, in and of itself, goes against one of (what i feel) is the basic tenets of the organization: To open one's mind to possibilities of love outside normal boundaries.

As an example, DayDreamr and I have been dating for over a year now, and when we first started seeing eachother, she really really wanted me to go to a Level 1. As I started learning more and more about the organization, and I continued to ask questions, she began to doubt the real reasons behind what she was convinced (at first) was a hard fought lesson, but well worth it. Had I not continued to ask logical, deduce-able questions, my gut tells me that the relationship would not have made it this far, because she would have evangalized me straight out of her life.

By anyone saying "I wont date anyone who isn't in HAI", they're essentially cutting off a very large portion of the "pond", for lack of a better term. Granted, some people NEED an organization similar to this to get their self-esteem in check and get themselves back on solid emotional ground. The key word in that particular sentance is "some people".

In many ways, I equate HAI with a nudie version of the Jehova's Witnesses. The couple people that i've had conversations with are more than happy to tell me of the benifits of HAI.. but are completely put off when I tell them that I feel that I've got everything I need as far as emotional and sexual support... to the point that they even seem surprised that anyone would be able to reach that point withOUT HAI.

The few people who have been to HAI and decided it's not for them (including DayDreamr) are under constant pressure (indirectly in some cases, directly in some others) to rejoin and come back "into the fold". I wouldn't be surprised if more people had bad experiences with the organization, and were just afraid of reprocussions, because they didnt want to make all these other people feel bad that they didnt believe what they were "taught" at the seminars.

I wish i had more time, i would elaborate on this further, as I wanted to reply to more of what you said. Thanks again for providing more information than what's readily available elsewhere.

Daishto-

I am in complete agreement with you about having a strong preference for people not becoming exclusionary, regardless of who their organization is. I am glad for you that you’ve found so much of what you need elsewhere – it doesn’t matter how you get it, I’m just glad you’re in such a good place.

Looking around here, I think people bring their personal quirks with them such as being exclusionary. A small percentage are socially exclusionary. Most of us are active in a wide range of activities (e.g. for me ski club, singles events, professional organizations, other growth communities which have nothing to do with HAI). Nothing from the facilitators drives anyone towards exclusion and I know of very few folks in Northern CA who are making this choice.

This being said, I am hearing that you and Daydreamer have had a couple of these folks in your lives, for which I am sorry. The limitations are theirs.

This discussion reminds me of a conversation I had with one of my sons some years back. He had a friend over to play, one who he had told me was very Christian. During the afternoon, I Morman came to the door and, while I had no desire to be hooked in, I offered them a cold drink out of compassion for them going door to door in support of their faith. After they left my son’s friend went into a monologue about “They were Mormon? I wish I’d known. I’d have given them a piece of my mind, they aren’t REAL Christians,…” After he left I had a discussion with my son in which I shared with him that I didn’t see similarities between his friend and real Christians I know. I saw his friend as a bully cloaked in self righteous Christianity.

I bring this up because I think what you are seeing comes from 3 places:

1) some people just have a need to cocoon into a community this way and they happen to have found HAI. (sort of like my son’s friend had a certain drive to bully which he cloaked in the respectability of being a conservative Christian.) It is more about who they are as individuals than it is about what HAI encourages.

2) for some people, they have reclaimed part of themselves in a workshop setting and they want to share that fuller part of who they are with their partners. There is a preciousness in living bigger they want to bring into their relationships.

3) there are HAI events that are only for level 1 grads and if your sweetie hasn’t done a level 1, they can’t go with you.

I have never heard anything in the community that would push one towards only associating with HAI folks, yet I can understand that you are seeing the symptoms and don’t know the source. For me, I have many friends in and out of the HAI community and tend to date men I meet elsewhere. I have also experienced no push as I have stepped beck from active involvement in the community, just warm friendliness from old friends...even having not attended the last 3 intern trainings, there is no pressure. In contrast with your Jehovah’s Witness analogy, I know of parents who have been told never to speak to their children again over them leaving the Jehovah’s Witness faith. Shunning is common in that organization.

I am concerned and puzzled when you refer to “constant pressure”. It is the antithesis of what we are trained in as team members and leaves me wondering what has happened. (We are taught that someone deciding to leave a HAI program is often listening to what is best for them and we are to support them in their choices 100%.) We sometimes do follow up calls after a workshop to check in on someone we are concerned about but they are not enrollment conversations.

(I was on the receiving end of pressure form Landmark some years back and I detest it.) I have never heard of anyone who has done HAI workshop doing this and I don’t like it. I am interested in knowing if the pressure is coming from other workshop participants or team members. If it is team members then I would like to report it back to HAI. It is not acceptable for this to be going on.

Wishing you the best,
Siofra

Oooh, Diashto. It won’t be a year until early December!

Yes, I’ve been experiencing near-constant pressure to “return to the fold” so to speak. This has been quite subtle from some sources, and a smack upside the head with a 2x4 from others. I actually had a phone call the other night from one person who was a participant at the Level 2 I attended, and he was very upset I wasn’t attending the auction and I had no interest in going to any other HAI related activity. He seemed to think I had just committed an unpardonable sin – turned my back on HAI. I’ve heard from a couple of interns that they are sad for my choice to leave, but they celebrate that I’ve made a decision that seems right for me – but at the same time, they hope that someday I’ll return. Someone anonymously donated money to the scholarship fund specifically in MY name to “encourage” me to attend July’s Level 3. Since it was common knowledge I wouldn’t have attended the first two unless it was paid for by someone else, this seemed to be a pretty blatant push.

I am not saying that HAI is all bad. Its general premise and goals seem to be genuine, and seem to be positive. I truly believe I needed the Level 1, as the wakeup call to accepting myself. However, it’s the methods that I call into question.

My comfort level with physical touch is MUCH lower than it used to be, and I always felt pressured at workshops to allow more contact than I was comfortable with. The pressure was subtle, but it WAS there. I honestly don’t mind being hugged by people I’m comfortable with, but strangers – it’s too much intimacy for me and it feels forced. Kisses? No thanks, I get those from my chosen partner. You want to have sex with me? Gee, thanks, but I’d prefer to share my body with someone I KNOW loves me, not someone who is merely saying so in order to get laid.

I guess at its most basic, I just don’t trust the motives of the participants. I just DON’T. I’ve seen and heard too much to just buy into everything they say at face value. I prefer to surround myself with people I am certain care for me, who genuinely like me, and who actually KNOW me for the person I am. I’m definitely NOT easy to know, I’m not easy to be with, I’m not easy to love, and I’m not easy to understand, but I DO believe that once the effort is made, I’m well worth the work, the effort, the risk, and the trouble. But I want it to be real, not just paying lip service to a word that is bandied about all too easily in our society.

DayDreamer –

I really liked a great deal of what you said and am sitting here with a grin on my face.

First off, I LIKE that you don’t trust other participants just because they show up at a workshop. To me personal growth workshops are a microcosm of humanity and that includes the full spectrum of people. Just because someone shows up at a workshop doesn’t mean they are trustworthy. Especially as women in these kinds of workshops, we need to listen to our gut feelings.

I have known of some women who use the workshops to express “no”s they haven’t been able to express elsewhere. "No, I don’t want touch", "No, I don’t want a hug", etc. Some share how learning how to say “no” at HAI has helped them with their “no’s” in the world. I can understand how at a workshop which includes touch, someone who doesn’t want touch might feel subtle pressure. Even if the team is committed to supporting your choice, there are many people with a variety of agendas in the room...

Speaking of which, there are some people who show up at workshops hoping to get laid, especially in level 1 & 2. In my experience, though, they are far from the majority. They are also not well accepted by the community at large and often disappear before the upper levels. Team members are trained to keep an eye out for these folks and gently coach them on appropriate behavior but I can’t claim we catch them all. I have, however, seen several men leave the workshops early on their own because the workshop agenda didn't match theirs' and it wasn’t the easy pickings they had hoped for.

On the push. The team members' comments sound within the range of appropriate (although I wish they’d been more sensitive to just accepting your “no” without stating their hopes). Your fellow participants may have good intentions but they are pushing their unwelcome agandas on you (as you know). I hope you have made it clear to them that you dislike their nudginess and would prefer they not bring up the topic again. You may also want to tell the producer in your area that you don’t want to be told if any money is donated for you to attend workshops and that such money should be turned down before it is accepted.

It is impressive to me that you formed such a strong impression on one or more of your fellow participants that they are this interested in keeping you involved – my recommendation is that you cherish the implicit compliment, then manage your boundaries so they don’t bother you again. (Forgive me please if I have offered too much unsolicited advice here.)

If you would have wanted something different from the team members, let me know and I will be glad to post the recommendation on our national team-discuss list (keeping you anonymous). I have noticed on this thread that some folks feel disappointed when communication ends with people they have met at HAI events and others feel pushed when contact continues; I’m not sure what doing it right looks like or that one approach fits all but it is a good area for skill refinement for team members to consider.

Thank you for your blunt and balanced feedback.

Best wishes,
Siofra

It’s funny, really. I went through life not feeling comfortable with saying no. Sure, I did it sometimes, but my mouth did not say no nearly as frequently as my mind and heart wanted me to. Going to Level 1 did change that. There was one exercise near the end that I did NOT want to do, and I said no. I finally found my voice, and since then have used it more than I ever dreamed possible. Still not to the point I'd like to, but a vast improvement.

I’m letting the local producer know that any scholarship money specifically donated for me should be turned down. I’m grateful that someone was willing to donate that much money to do something to benefit me (in their opinion), but it’s just not something I want to do. And of course, if that ever changes I’m perfectly capable of telling them that as well. :)

But siofra, it’s not just other participants I don’t trust, it’s humanity in general. For a very long time, I was the “trust someone until they give me a reason not to” type. Overwhelmingly, I was ultimately given a reason to distrust them. Now I’m much more careful, and I suppose more cynical in some ways. I have decided that my TRUST, not just my love, is a gift. I am not going to waste it on just anyone. It must be earned. People can say anything they want to say in hopes of manipulating an outcome – I think everyone does that to a point at least once in a while. However, once I get to know someone for who he/she really is, then I can decide whether the person is trustworthy. There are some people I trust implicitly, and others I trust with certain things. There are some people I don’t trust a single iota. I suppose the most difficult thing for me is when someone has earned my trust, and then loses it. Once it’s gone, it’s nearly impossible to get it back. The insidious problem is that I begin to doubt myself, and feel that there is some failing within myself that I failed to recognize something in that person.

Day Dreamer –

I can so relate to what you wrote about trust. It isn’t a black and white thing. The additional care you take I think is typical for most of us as we age. We know that the world can hold many things including many which are not good for us. My own path is teaching me that wisdom is learning more and more to be discerning in who I bring into my life and the roads I choose to go down. I am also much more cautious than I used to be.

Like you, I have been burned, and I have learned that my first impressions about people aren’t always accurate. Betrayal really hurts and I have done soul-searching over “How could I have been so wrong…?, If I was that far off last time, how can I trust myself again…?”

At this stage of who I am, time and experience teaches me how deep I want to let someone into my life. I am not afraid of others, I just let who they are unfold and make my choices accordingly. (We don’t expect to know how good a book is in the first few pages, why do we expect to understand people and whether we want them in our lives instantly...)

I am reminded of a workshop I took several years ago called “Undefended Love” (GREAT workshop!) which spoke of relationship as a container for our emotional stuff to come up and be healed in. At the end of the workshop, I asked one of the facilitators, “How do you know? How do you know someone you meet is capable of this type of relationship?” She looked shocked and said to me, “That’s what the first year of dating is for…to get to know who they are.” What a wake up call!!! All my life I thought I was supposed to KNOW these things intuitively or very fast after I met someone. Her wisdom helped me see that we ask far too much of ourselves when we expect to understand who someone is quickly.

At one time, I thought being a HAI team member and doing it well meant being in harmony with everyone, then I got set straight. Peter R. told me “if someone causes high drama in your life and isn’t willing to change, get them out”. Anne (in private counseling) taught me that "some people are like foods we are allergic to, we don’t judge the food, we just choose to not have it in our lives.” [For thread readers, Peter and Anne are HAI facilitators.]

Their combined advice has helped me make choices that serve me better. I can’t tell you how freeing it has been in the past year to let go a couple of connections that were hopeless but that I kept wracking my brain for ways to make work. Now I have wished these two people well but told them I want no further contact. I say an occasional prayer for them but I not longer struggle with the toxicity which drained me so and trying to make something work when I was the only one trying.

There are ways I liked my earlier innocence more yet, given the choice, I would still choose to have the lessons I have received. There are still many times I take risks, but is it more a conscious thing now… and not an automatic reflex to trust everyone or assume I have the responsibility and capacity to make every difficult relationship work.

Siofra