Passonite,

I've read through all the posts on this part of the forum, and want to thank you for much of what you've shared. I've found it very enlightening.

>>realized they could make more money by having just one center<<

I don't think that's what they realized at all. That's what they may say, but I think it's another of their lies.

Where would Sam Walton or McDonalds (or Landmark) be if they took that approach?

Clearly there's more money to be made by being in multiple cities.

And if they were truly committed (butts on the line like in Lift off) to changing the world, why limit themselves to only 120 or so participants per month in one city? That's not commitment, trust, a stand. It's playing "not to lose."

So I think there's a deeper reason why they have chosen to stay only in SLC, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe someone here has more insight into this.

Could it be a greater fear of successful lawsuits filed in other states?

Their past, repeated inability to mantain loyalty among a larger group of trainers?

Waiting for the right time/opportunity to expand (a grad in, say, Orlando who will put up the funding for a building and office staff?)

It just seems to me their explanation that "there's more money to be made by having only the one center in SLC" is a total lie.

Hum, just occurred to me it could also be that those trainees who fly in here from somewhere else are even less likely to leave the training, no matter how insane it seems. . . .

What percentage are from out of state? I've heard they typically have at least a few trainees from Europe in most Quests!

It's also curious why they've not found a larger space somewhere in SLC. The one on Bearcat road was huge, Harmony's was smaller, and the one they are in now is even smaller still. Lifespring trainings used to have 300 or more in their Quest-levels.

Apparently they have 300 or more on their waiting list (sold out through December). So why not move to something bigger?

There's a reason they're keeping it this size, and I think it has more to do with their experience with growing too large for Sally to control every detail. Or their complete lack of trust in any trainer who is not closely connected to their family. (and even some who are/were, like JJ)

Impacted, and getting over it

exImpact,

>>They have made their own religion, <<

It's taken me awhile to see this perspective. But I don't quite agree that Impact is a religion. That's too nice a term for what they're becoming.

Would you agree that Impact 10+ years ago was not at all a religion, but a LGAT in the classic sense? And that with the TIT stuff developed over especially the last 5 years or so, they have turned into a whacked-out, new age, cult (just can't quite use the word "religion"). It's something else, something darker. And given the trend they are on, likely to become much, much worse over the coming years. Not really related to religion at all.

For example, did you ever hear their talk about creating an "Army of Light" to "do battle" in the coming "war with darkness?" (I've heard this from Hans, Pamela, Justin, Sally and others repeatedly.)

But what they don't share very openly is that the "dark side" they are preparing to fight against, at least initially here in the SLC vally, is the mainstream LDS church (because, according to Hans and Sally, it has gone into apostacy from what Joseph Smith originally taught). Apparently there is some mainstream LDS prophesy about SLC becomming apostate and the true LDS returning to Missouri? Leaving Hans and his "Army of Lightworkers" alone here to restore the valley.

I didn't hear Hans say it myself, but others who I trust reported he has said "We don't need to come into alignment with the (LDS) Church, it needs to come into alignment with us."

Why any Mormon (or anyone else) would choose to support this, remains a nearly complete mystery to me.

When do you think Impact turned from being a typical LGAT into a totally whacked out cult? My guess is around 2002 or 2003. About the time TIT 3 hit 200+ full time members.

Impacted, but getting over it.

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Impacted
exImpact,

>>They have made their own religion, <<

It's taken me awhile to see this perspective. But I don't quite agree that Impact is a religion. That's too nice a term for what they're becoming.

Would you agree that Impact 10+ years ago was not at all a religion, but a LGAT in the classic sense? And that with the TIT stuff developed over especially the last 5 years or so, they have turned into a whacked-out, new age, cult (just can't quite use the word "religion"). It's something else, something darker. And given the trend they are on, likely to become much, much worse over the coming years. Not really related to religion at all.

For example, did you ever hear their talk about creating an "Army of Light" to "do battle" in the coming "war with darkness?" (I've heard this from Hans, Pamela, Justin, Sally and others repeatedly.)

But what they don't share very openly is that the "dark side" they are preparing to fight against, at least initially here in the SLC vally, is the mainstream LDS church (because, according to Hans and Sally, it has gone into apostacy from what Joseph Smith originally taught). Apparently there is some mainstream LDS prophesy about SLC becomming apostate and the true LDS returning to Missouri? Leaving Hans and his "Army of Lightworkers" alone here to restore the valley.

I didn't hear Hans say it myself, but others who I trust reported he has said "We don't need to come into alignment with the (LDS) Church, it needs to come into alignment with us."

Why any Mormon (or anyone else) would choose to support this, remains a nearly complete mystery to me.

When do you think Impact turned from being a typical LGAT into a totally whacked out cult? My guess is around 2002 or 2003. About the time TIT 3 hit 200+ full time members.

Impacted, but getting over it.

I have personally heard Hans say all of the things that you just referenced and as you have said, Impact is definitely more of a cult than a religion.

It does seem like the TIT trainings have mostly sprung up in the last 5 years. I believe one and two were offered before that time but not nearly as frequently. I heard some rumors about the JJ separation but nothing more than that. Rather than post hearsay on the thread, I'll stick to what I am sure of.

Impacted, you have obviously had a lot of experience with the trainings, when did you finally decide to pull out and what pushed you over the edge? Thanks for your recent posts.

Just posted this in the religion forum in response to a post which claims Impact has had over 140,000 graduates/participants.

Thought I'd share it here too (hope that's in alignment with the forum rules)

>>>>>

One thing I'd like to point out is the obvious lie in that 140,000 number you cite.

Even if they had averaged 120 participants per month over the 22 years they have been in business (and I know there were many months where they had less than 20 in a Quest, and they didn't really start in 1985, and their early Lift-Offs had 10 or less for several years) -- that's still less than 1,500 per year (120 * 12 = 1,440). Not all 120 who enter Quest graduate.

Even at 1,400 per year (and this is generous), that's at the very most 30,000 people in the 21 years they claim to have been in business (1,400 * 21 = 29,400).

The way they lie about this number is a "perfect mirror" for the way they lie about so many other things in their "training" (read: cult).

Just reengage that mind God gave you, open your eyes and see.

How many just accept this 140,000 number without even thinking about it? How is that a mirror of how they accept so many other lies there?

The truth? At the very most 20,000 people have participated in Quest. 13,000 in Summit and 10,000 or less in Lift-Off.

So 140,000 "graduates" is really about "10,000" Lift Off Graduates.

Of those 10,000 how many have been cast aside by Hans and Sally?

Of course all the ones who did not go on from Quest to Summit; or Summit to Lift-off, based on what THEY say, "Have lost the results of their training."

How many staffed and then left in disgust over whacked-out cultish beliefs shared in a staff groundings? How may simply left?

Ever wonder why there are so few "old" grads around? Say from Lift-Offs in the sub 150s?

It's because Hans and Sally do not want anyone around who lived through (and knows about) the lawsuits, banckrupcys, name changes, and corporate shell schemes.

Anyone who was trained by a Trainer who is no longer with them is no longer welcome. Did Quest or Summit with Duane, or Mike, or Sylvia, or Lou, or Eleanor? No longer welcome at Impact (with very, very few exceptions).

Anyone who knows any dirt, lived through any turmoil or who dares share about their experience of that with any new trainees, banned for life.

So what you're talking about is not 140,000 "graduates" but maybe 5,000 or so. 5,000, at the very, very most.

And realistically, in terms of active grads it's less than half that.

If you disagree with this, then I have a simple question for you: Where is everybody?

I know their answer is: "They are out transforming the world on their own."

And I suppose if you believe that 10,000 is really 140,000, you'll believe that too.

Impacted and getting past it.

>>Impacted, you have obviously had a lot of experience with the trainings, when did you finally decide to pull out and what pushed you over the edge? Thanks for your recent posts.<<

I've been around for awhile, might even still be there (just to push Sally's hot button -- you better but a scanner at the door), and I don't want to share the details because, frankly I want to leave them wondering if they can trust anyone there.

I might be one of their paid staff. Or a vendor. Or work at one of the many law firms they have used over the years.

It's true that what they fear they create, and to some degree this is a fulfillment of their fears, especially Sally's fear, of losing control over every little detail.

What pushed me over the edge? Being lied to.

More than anything else it was that.

Also hearing their laughter at thinking they had deceived me or others.

Listening to their degrading remarks about each other. (Ever hear Sally rip into Hans? or Hans share his disgust at being "married" to her? or their mutual distain for Pamela, Ward or others?)

Knowing if they were speaking that way about them to me, they were likely speaking that way about me to others . . . and hearing about it.

Being slandered by them.

Having friends who were hurt (emotionally and financially) by them.

I could go on.

And I might still be there, behind the scenes doing what I can to mitigate the damage they do, or I might have left some years ago. Or it might be that I have been gone for awhile but still want to be able to get in the front door when the time is right to end this cult and help those who will need it most.

Knowing Sally reads every word here (and passes on what she thinks she should to Hans and others).

Impacted, getting past it, and trusting this does some good for those hurt by these evil people, stops others from going, or keeps them from being hurt, or hurt as deeply while they are there.

Well, I have called them a religion, but I have also dubbed them a cult. They are a cult, and I think you answered your own question:

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Impacted
So I think there's a deeper reason why they have chosen to stay only in SLC, but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe someone here has more insight into this.

with:

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Impacted

But what they don't share very openly is that the "dark side" they are preparing to fight against, at least initially here in the SLC vally, is the mainstream LDS church (because, according to Hans and Sally, it has gone into apostacy from what Joseph Smith originally taught). Apparently there is some mainstream LDS prophesy about SLC becomming apostate and the true LDS returning to Missouri? Leaving Hans and his "Army of Lightworkers" alone here to restore the valley.

I didn't hear Hans say it myself, but others who I trust reported he has said "We don't need to come into alignment with the (LDS) Church, it needs to come into alignment with us."

Why any Mormon (or anyone else) would choose to support this, remains a nearly complete mystery to me.
.

The majority of their clientel are LDS. Some members are dissatisfied to some degree or another with the church's impractical answers to many modern moral question. Members are also already indoctrinated into an unpopular religion (among many non-LDS people, irreligious or not) before they even walk into Quest, and so the switch from LDS to TITLDS may be easier for them to make. This is speculation you understand, and for the sake of brevity, simplification to some degree, but I saw it happen (made it happen at times) over and over and over and over again. Impact stays in SLC because the marks are easier targets here. No other reason. The LDS have a [i:62512c5198]VERY[/i:62512c5198] strong sense of responsibility to family and Impact uses that to their advantage, enrolling almost exclusively from that pool of profits they call "loved-ones". The church's investigations into the matter have been sloppy, negligent, irresponsible etc. That warning about LGAT's from the bretheren is a [i:62512c5198]joke[/i:62512c5198].

The change from LGAT to full blown cult occurred, as you said, in 2002-2003. New TIT 1 and 2 groups were being trained, and "invitations" were being given out to those grads to join the TIT 3 family. Which by the by, it was said to the trainees at that time, once you join, you can never go back. Like the dark side, no?

I think J.J. was forced out. I remember in the Harmony days that he would get undeserved flak from his Berger-ex behind his back. I think she had something to do with it, but that is a guess.

Whole heartily agree with you that the majority of the decisions made for the training's business model revolve around Sally's need to control every aspect of the training.

Thanks for joining, Impacted

EX-impact :)

Impacted,

I\'ve done the same math with their number of grads and came up with slightly different numbers than you did, but its still only a small percentage of what they claim. Last munber I heard was 120,000 2 years ago, and now they claim 140,000? With a max of about 110 per Quest, that makes 2500 in 2 years, not 20,000. Their numbers cannot be real. They did have many centers open for many years but even those addded numbers can\'t make up for their recent increases. Conclusion: made up numbers.

I chose the term split to describe thier separation from Harmony because I didn\'t know the real reason why it happened. Like Former said, I heard rumors but I chose not to use rumors to prove fact.

Yes the real reason Hans says they closed other centers is because they realized the world would come to them. I say because of money. Here\'s the deeper reson I came up with. Keeping several centers open and functioning was too much work for Hans. Keeping tabs on their trainers and making sure they are doing his bidding was too much work for Hans and Sally. They spread themselves too thin too quickly. Many companies make this same mistake. So they reigned in to make one training center. Just my theory.

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Impacted

...Listening to their degrading remarks about each other. (Ever hear Sally rip into Hans? or Hans share his disgust at being "married" to her? or their mutual distain for Pamela, Ward or others?) ...

I heard such things, but dismissed them as playful. I was under the influence you see, and believed what they believed. It is ok to be hard, cold and ruthless to people because you love them unconditionally.

I remember hearing Hans shockingly introduce Sally to a quest as "his boobs", continuing a crass joke he started in that training. People write his remarks off because of his seemingly harmless boyish charm. I see a narcissistic, twisted mind. Sure liked to talk about the boobs...

ex

Ex,

>>Impact stays in SLC because the marks are easier targets here. No other reason. <<

I think you've got it.

That and, I suspect, the legal systems in California or Colorado, for example, present a greater risk to them than those in Utah.

Why do you think they've not found a larger training center, one that could handle 200+ in Quest.

I suspect it may have to do with not trusting a second full-time Summit Trainer.

In the old days they would have two 50 to 60 person Summits going in two rooms at the same time. It would rock the place.

As devoted as Terri Smart seems to be, I don't get they trust her husband at all, or maybe it's her for that matter. Pamela has proved her unreasonable loyalty. but finding a second Pamela to do two simultaneous Summits, like in the old days, may be seen as too great a risk. Wasn't Shannon Wooley to be a Summit Trainer? Never was certain why that didn't that happen? Something more than her being pregnant, I think.

Then they would put the two Summits back into one huge Lift-Off.

This was all before the Bruce Solomon split (walked out of a Lift-Off training with ALL of the coaches over "The Church must come into alignment with us" stand Hans had taken even back then. That was something.

Impacted, but better now . . .

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Impacted
Ex,

>>Impact stays in SLC because the marks are easier targets here. No other reason. <<

I think you've got it.

That and, I suspect, the legal systems in California or Colorado, for example, present a greater risk to them than those in Utah.

Why do you think they've not found a larger training center, one that could handle 200+ in Quest.

I suspect it may have to do with not trusting a second full-time Summit Trainer.

In the old days they would have two 50 to 60 person Summits going in two rooms at the same time. It would rock the place.

As devoted as Terri Smart seems to be, I don't get they trust her husband at all, or maybe it's her for that matter. Pamela has proved her unreasonable loyalty. but finding a second Pamela to do two simultaneous Summits, like in the old days, may be seen as too great a risk. Wasn't Shannon Wooley to be a Summit Trainer? Never was certain why that didn't that happen? Something more than her being pregnant, I think.

Then they would put the two Summits back into one huge Lift-Off.

This was all before the Bruce Solomon split (walked out of a Lift-Off training with ALL of the coaches over "The Church must come into alignment with us" stand Hans had taken even back then. That was something.

Impacted, but better now . . .

There was talk that a new center is going to be built in draper, on the west side of the freeway on 11600 south near South Towne Mall. It will be big, near a hotel and restaurants. Hans says the blueprints include a pyramid in the structure to channel energy or some such into the trainees. I think it has taken so long because they like the money too much. Grand expenditures are not attractive to these people, unless they are personal. Paying a full-time trainer is a much greater financial commitment than the pennies they throw at the many new office helpers they have on the payroll now.

Terri Smart got married again? I mean, she got divorced from John because he was associated with people in the great adultery pyramid that I and formerimpactgrad have mentioned. Terri doesn't have the charisma or intelligence Pamela does, thats why she won't be given the autonomy. People don't take to her, for good reason. After the adultery crap in TIT 3 went down, the control issue went off the charts. Impact will never let the reigns loose again. Shannon Woody was the assistant summit trainer, but she got pregnant and went on hiatus. I have heard she is back doing GP's and taking phone calls, but not much more. She and Kevin were good folks, I thought. I haven't been able to understand how they and J.J. could have gotten involved with Impact. Probably the same way I did, huh.

ex