SEVERAL things about this post deeply disturb me.

First things first. The altars.

" 2. The preparation of personal altars utilized for the focus of perceived energies created by the practices mentioned in example 1. These are not unlike what Satanists, pagans or wiccans prepare, however they are always aligned for “white light” rituals. "

I would be absolutely fascinated to SEE one of these altars, however, I will assure you now, while having not seen one to date, it would be nothing like my own. So, my friend, I must politely disagree with you on that one. Satanist altars are a reverse/mockery of your typical Catholic "altar setup" and as for mine, which is rooted deeply in Wiccan traditions, is... and I'd be willing to stake my life on this one... most likely nothing like either Satanist NOR Impact altar setups.

I've heard enough of this "white light" ritual baloney to last me a lifetime. Of course... if you spoke with any experienced Wiccan/Pagan, they'd roll their eyes and sigh anytime the issue of "white magick" came up. It's a ridiculous notion for those of us that base our beliefs on balance in nature... dig? I also might add here, I'd be interested in witnessing one of these "white light" rituals, as well. Then again... I learned what I know by asking questions and getting answers... they might not respond kindly to.. "Why did you just do that?" Huh...

Now... Please consider for a moment... Although I am not a Christian, I am well-versed in religious philosophy and have quite likely forgotten more about Christian mythos than most IN the faith ever knew. I also have a healthy respect for the beliefs of others, no matter what they are, so, I will respectfully submit this bit of information that I've recalled as accurately as I can at 3 am.

Probably the most alarming thing I've read... due to many recent experiences surrounding the group lately... is the comment regarding Lucifer being the GREATEST SAVIOR? OF ALL. Okay... in my neck of the woods, Lucifer is Lord of the Sun. An essentially harmless being, married to Diana, the Moon Goddess. However... I'm not thinking that this is where Lucifer is coming from on this end.

THAT Lucifer sprang forth the Christian version... Satan, Lucifer, etc...

Does everyone remember what Lu's issue was? He was upset because he felt that free will was a trap by God. He wanted to come forth as the Messiah, but didn't want to extend free will to man, thus making this little "test" we call humanity infallible. Which... I mean... I could go as deep as I want into the Impact philosophy, and, for every idea, there's about 15 different ways to interpret it.

Did he fall and, by falling, pave the way for Jesus to give us free will, which, is what they're considering as the GREATEST SACRIFICE EVER? I don't think I even want to go into that one any deeper... I don't have the time nor the desire to waste my intellect on something as foolish and unimportant as trying to figure out how or why this particular part of the Christian mythos is so important to his narcissism.

I have seen more "spin-off" material stolen from the Wiccan religion here, and maybe from Christian Mysticism, than I have from the Mormon religion... or any other, for that matter. I could be wrong, though, as I've never gone through the trainings. I've only been there to lend a sympathetic ear to those who have suffered at the hands of Hans and Sally Berger.

I consider myself an intelligent person... and I've seen my intelligence matched word for word in this forum, and in those people who I've known and "assisted?" through the process of dealing with what they've been through. Sometimes I wonder to myself why people who possess such great intelligence wouldn't see through this? But, I also wonder about myself, should I have been successfully talked into it from the beginning, when I was going through my divorce and everyone seemed so gung-ho about getting me to sign on, claiming it would "save me."

*sigh*

Now, all I can think of, looking back, is that as it stands, I'd be rather interested in asking Hans a few questions, myself...

I've spoken with religious leaders, leaders of various Indian tribes, LDS church officials, and many, many like-minded people.... and they all say the same thing... Run. Run away as fast as you can.

With a heavy heart, all I can do is shake my head. You can't help those who won't help themselves. All you can do is pick up the pieces when it's all said and done... but those pieces and those broken people are piling up too rapidly.

Blessed Be...

exImpact,

The immediate crisis has passed, in that my daughter with the depression issues does seem to feel better, as a result of her experiences at Impact Trainings.

After reading additional posts on both this website, and others, I'm wondering if she is on some sort of a false emotional high, from which she may come crashing down at some later date.

But, hey, I can't judge. If it is working for her, I should be happy, right?

Other than the fact that it seems that both my daughter and son may be being groomed, at least on some level, to attend the higher level training seminars, by the fact that they were singled out as the recipients of full tuition wavers for Lift-Off if they would only come back and attend.

So far my daughter has paid for 3 round-trip tickets to Utah for this, and has 3 more tickets to purchase in order to finish Lift-Off.

At this point, I'm just keeping my mouth shut, because I'm tired of being told that my negative energy is blocking my children's progress.

I can't do much about the fact that both of these adult children have attended Quest, and Summit, and both of them will have their first Lift-Off week-end soon. And, both seem to be committed to finishing Lift-Off as well.

HOWEVER, from what I have read about the Trainer in Training seminars, that is where it all seems to get quite bizarre. I will be VERY concerned if either of my children choose to attend the TIT levels.

I do have a few questions I would like to ask this group, and hopefully either exImpact, formerImpactgrad, spiritual? or one of the additional members, who have extensive knowledge about this organization, can tell me the answers to any of the following:

1. Does anyone know firsthand whether or not Hans and/or Sally Berger have been excommunicated from the LDS church?

(Not judging here, but curious, because it would be a huge red flag to my ex-husbands if he and his family have just paid thousands of dollars to people who have been excommunicated from the church, for any reason.)

2. Has anyone tried the approach of going to someone's LDS Bishop and/or Stake President to see if the Priesthood leadership could get through to the Impact Training participants?

3. Is anyone aware of any instances in which an LDS person was disciplined by his or her church leaders for participating in this series of seminars which seems to be in violation of warnings published in a letter written by the First Presidency, which now appears in the Bishop's Handbook?


Some of the above mentioned questions are non-issues to me, but should seem to be one method I may use to eventually get through to my ex-husband that what he is ENCOURAGING his family to participate in may turn out to cause more harm than good. And, again, specifically encouraging a child suffering from situational depression to choose participation in this seminar series, rather than to seek out mental health counseling of some sort, from someone who is licensed to provide those services.


Thanks again to all or you former Impact folks, for participating in this site, to let others know what is going on behind the closed doors at the Impact Training facility.

Mother of Impactees

I've been reading this post when I have free time for about a week now. I'm about twelve pages deep into and still going. I guess I can' t really hold my tongue anymore. So many comments and thoughts have gone threw my head.

Were to start....
Dated a girl who went threw Quest, Summit and Lift off (and is now a grad). We met at a party and hit it off pretty well. We talked about this and that, and she keep referencing everything to Impact. So i asked her about it want what it was all about. She told me she can't tell me anything about it, its something that I have to do myself. i keep picking at her and picking at her but she wouldn't tell me anything. As our relationship grew. She kind of was treating me like one of the trainees (from what i understand and have read about). Telling me that there is no right/wrong and there is only what works and what doesn't work. Said I was not allowed to say help but "assist". You know the basic stuff that I have read/

She keep on begging me and begging me telling me that I "deserve" to go. When I would tell her no its seems like a cult she would get up set and really defensive. Telling me that I'm not being "open" and I'm a bad person cause of this. Which by the way is not really doing the ULing which I've heard about. It really bothered me for that fact that I choose not wanting to go and that I wasn't being open and showing ultimate love and I'm a negative person. When she is the one being negative and putting me down.

Anyway I finally broke down and went to there meeting on a random tuesday a few months ago. I tell you what. WEIRD!!! Some guy next time was drinking Impact Water with there logo on it or some junk. Telling me that it was making him stay hunger and he said he never felt healthier in his life (BS). Then we listen to some guys do some presentation with hearts and love and we all scream and cheered cause we are all so awesome and powerfull!!! Then we watched a clip from the movie "Way of the peaceful warrior". Which I have read and enjoyed. It showed a clip telling us to be aware at everything all the time. I believe the boy was thrown in the the water or something like that. Anyway, I was like I'll be aware of how i feel and what I see.

I started getting into it like yeah, I like this this is pretty cool. Everyone looks happy.... Then we had grad's come up and sit face to face and stare at each other in the eyes for a while then they explained how Impact has improved there lives and everything around them. I'm a male and I never had a male grad come up and talk to me about it. It was only a female (cowincedence?) Then we were parried up with the grad that brought us long with them and had to tell them something something we keep a secret to people. O by the way Sally was there speaking do us while we were dong this. I told my grad a secert and all the crap yea I cried a little while telling it so I guess I was being "open".

Ok after that guests would speak and say thing like "I feel so good, sign me up." As people were saying this I was looking around at people and something in the back of my head said "Not a good idea man, this is not a safe place of you." That these people are wearing masks. So after the thing was over I started to feel uneasy about it. But my girlfriend at the time got me to drop $150 down payment on it. Even though I have already decided that I wasn't going to do it. I was weak man what can I say, they almost cracked me.

Anyway I don't remember who said it, but someone said that people only seem to have changed for the better while in the room. Out side they just seem to go back to there ways. My ex was this way.... Man, the way she was when she was there..... Was not right at all man, not right at all... It did freak me out.

As I was leaving I Sally was sitting at the table I was walking by and I thought to myself. I'm going to go up to her and see what she is like. We didn't talk much but from what I got and from looking into her eyes. She didn't give a piss about me. She basically blew me off and i didn't have a good feeling lookin in those eyeballs.

Anyway my Quest session was coming up and my girlfriend and I kind of went our little ways after that. As soon as my time was coming up though she was calling me and trying to make things better and telling me things are ok. I knew what her secert motive was so I straight up told her I'm not going to this thing. If I have problems I will work on them myself. So she flipped out and that was that.

Now she is with some guy who gets really drunk and abuses her. Tell me if you were to go threw Impact would you be in a relationship like that? NO!! From what I've read it seems like they have beat her down mentaly so bad. That that is the only guys she will go for now is guys that will beat her down mentaly.

I don't feel like Impact is a safe place. It seems like very unhealthy place for people to try to get help. Especially when the trainers (brain washers) are not educated or licensed. Anyway that more then my two cents. There is a lot more I wish to express about this topic. I'll just leave it as this for now and go back to reading. I have a lot of reading to do :) and yes my grammar is not so well.

If you wish to learn lot about yourself and were you weakness are and were your strengths are go Rock Climbing!!!

Quote
exImpact
My fellow beloved Impact haters:

I have been recently asked to detail the goings on in the Quest training. I'd like to do so here in the forum, seeing that it may also be relevant to Mother's immanent predicament. Anything anyone remembers would help me fill in the cracks. If you would PM me what you remember of the ground rules and the sequences of processes (days, breaks, music used) it would be most appreciated. I'll put it all together and post is ASAP.

Your exBuddy ;)

I really really am looking forward to reading this. I have been recently blessed with an abundance of Impact Graduates and I have to be honest... they freak me the hell out. They seem so fake to me, more along the lines of they are acting happy cause they were told they have to be happy. It reminds me of an Addict while they are still in rehab floating on their pink cloud and it makes me want to grab them and shake them into reality.

Honestly? "I deserve to be happy!" No, you don't. You have the right to be happy, and you have the right to work on your relationships to bring you happiness, but no one deserves it.

I can honestly say I've had less pressure to join the LDS Church from Missionaries on a house call. I was actually chastised recently for "interfering" with a recruitment. To be honest, all I said to the person they were attempting to recruit was, "Are you sure this is something for you? You seem a bit unstable and you should probably consider a therapist before spending a ton of money you don't have on a non-certified facility." Wow, suffice it to say I'm not welcome at that house anymore.

I was somehow able to finally get one of them to admit that they were pressuring me, but it felt like it took every bit of independence they had left to just say the words, "I mean, I do put a little pressure on, but that's only cause I feel it would serve you." Really?? Serve me? All I have seen come out of that forsaken facility is unhappy clones forced to recruit people.

So please, post the entire Quest process because I would love to know how they are turning normal people into these blank non-motivated people that think they deserve everything and therefore will get everything.

I'm half tempted to get some sort of spy cam and actually go through the program just so I can turn over the actual evidence of what occurs in this horrible overly physical facility to the University or even to the State so that they can start some sort of action aimed towards shutting them down.

I know there's a lot to read and appreciate the respect of Mother of Impactees and Climbon to read the whole thread. While I respect their efforts, I also know it's a bit of an impractical request. Especially because I've been around for most of it and a lot is just drama.

Having said that I must comment on a few of the posts as of late.

Mother of Impactees

I'm still worried about your daughter. Even though things seem to be better as a result of the training, I feel your assessment is correct in that it is temporary and when she crashes it will be hard. Honestly, most people experience some sort of a crash between quest and summit and then again between summit and lift-off. Impact calls this normal and that's part of the reason why they have mandatory phone calls during both sessions. Their sole purpose in this is to increase retention.

I heard word the they are offering a buy one get one free quest in September. I guess the economy is hitting them pretty hard too. That could be part of the reason why the scholarship is being offered to your kids. I also know that there are LMT people who donate funds for the specific purpose of scholarships in the lower trainings. While the expectation may not seem apparent you can believe the are ulterior motives involved. Usually it's as simple as them seeing you have quite a large family and there is much revenue that could be had if everyone goes.

As far as the Berger's and the LDS church this is what I know. I'm pretty sure they are both still members, but they are not active. Hans claims to be on the in as far as general authorities go so that when "the letter" comes up in training he can say, "Well, there is that letter, but they weren't talking about Impact because I've talked to general authorities personally and they agree with our cause and that it doesn't go against the guidelines recommended in the letter." I have personally heard him say things like this in both the core and the higher level trainings.

The LDS leadership could have an influence on the decision to attend the trainings, but it honestly would depend on how much the trainee trusts the church leadership. I've heard stories where the trainees reject church leadership and become more entrenched in Impact. I've also heard stories where the trainee leaves the training and successfully recruits others from their group to leave, too.

As far as disciplining goes, I've seen the whole spectrum from a slap on the wrist to releasing from church callings, but I've never seen excommunication as a result of participating in the training.

Climbon

It sounds like your guest presentation experience was pretty typical. Congratulations for getting out before you got started. The fact that your girlfriend is mentally beat down doesn't surprise me. they certainly teach you to not ask questions or think for yourself. It's amazing to me how robotic I was while attending the trainings, especially in the training room.

As for Sally, even when I was in LMT I would go to talk to her about one thing or another and I would get the same feeling from her. I was basically treated as if I wasn't important enough to be given attention. She would start conversations with other people while I was talking to her.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but one of my favorite things about Sally is that she lasered off her eyebrows and then tatooed them back on. She even convinced at least one of the office staff members to do the same thing so the member would look the right part. I've never seen a company that had proper looking eyebrows as one of their job requirements until Impact. Both of them look like cartoons to me.

Well I've babbled enough. I hope this helps.

spiritual?,

You don't know how much it means to me right now to have some "buddies" who have been through the Impact Trainings seminars, and are willing to shed some light on what is happening behind the closed doors at the Impact Training facility.

Just as an update, a few days ago I called the phone number listed on Impact Trainings website, and asked the "man" who answered the phone a few questions. (I will not call him a gentleman, because he did NOT behave as a gentleman in our phone conversation.)

I had a few, simple questions I wanted to ask about the Trainings. Specifically, I was interested in the ratio of Trainers to participants, the level of education of the Trainers, and what sort of supervision the trainers had.

Unfortunately, I was not using the right vocabulary. I used the term "facilitators of Group Therapy" in one of the questions I asked. He came down my throat and said that they were not facilitators, but trainers, and that it was not Group Therapy, but training. He went on to explain that Impact Trainings is not licensed to provide Group Therapy, but that they were a training facility.

Oops. Sorry. If it looks like Group Therapy, and it sounds like Group Therapy, and it quacks like group therapy... But, oh, well.

I'm wondering if this is one of the Loopholes that Impact Trainings has found, to avoid accusations of Mental Health Malpractice?

If they are classified as a training facility, it appears that they can interject whatever flavor they want, of Psychology, along with the process, and not be held accountable, legally for the psychological impact of their training seminars...

During the course of the conversation, I tried to ask questions regarding concerns people had shared, via the Internet, and he shot down each of my concerns, stating that the people who report things on the Internet were just lying, and distorting the information presented at Impact, for their own benefit.

I could tell that I was getting nowhere fast, by asking questions on the phone, so, I let the young man finish raising his voice to me, on the phone, telling me that if I didn't like the Impact Trainings philosopy I didn't have to go... I finally got so frustrated, that I hung up on him mid-sentence. I didn't need to listen to his controlling, manipulative tactics anymore.

I felt that a face-to-face question and answer session might be more helpful for me, and since I was passing through the Salt Lake valley yesterday, I decided to stop in at the Impact Trainings facility, and ask a few questions there.

I only knew that I needed to avoid any young men with a nametag that said STEVE.

When I walked in the front door, I told them I wanted to buy a bracelet, and I was immediately escorted down the hall to the staff offices. I never once claimed that I was a graduate of the program, but that I wanted to buy a bracelet for my daughter.

I found a lovely lavendar bracelet, with beautiful crystals, and the secret hand symbol, of the four fingers together, with the thumb across the palm of the hand.

The lady who sold me the bracelet seemed to be sincere in her beliefs, and was much more polite than the young man on the phone. I asked her if it would be OK if I could clarify some things, while I was there...

She said I could ask her any question I wanted, which I did. However, it was difficult to get straight answers from her, as well.

Here are a few questions that I have, that I have not been able to figure out yet, and which the Impact employee with whom I met, was not forthcoming with answers...

1. What is the ratio of staff to students in the training, and how many of the facilitators are paid, and how many are volunteers? I'm not looking for exact numbers here, just rough estimates are fine. For example, in a group of 100 participants in Quest, how many facilitators / trainers / trainers in training would the participants be exposed to?

2. What sort of training is required for the paid presenters, as well as the volunteer staff? I was told by the young man on the phone that the trainers were required to put in 10 years of "on the job training" but I would like to have someone clarify that for me.

3. Also, vocabulary wise, I am unfamiliar with what a "feedback arc" is. I have noticed several people mentioning that term, and I have not found anything on the Internet that defines that process. When I asked the Impact employee about what the feedback arc entails, she danced around the question for about 5 minutes, but never gave me a straight answer, saying it would spoil it for me, if I were to take the trainings myself.

I only asked about the feedback arc specifically because it seems to have been a painful experience for some participants.

I was very polite to the woman who sold me my jewelry and she was polite in return.

She was also kind enough to give me a tour of the facility.

I did not lie to her, but I did not tell her my whole story, either. I simply told her that my daughter had been attending the seminar series, and that I was concerned about her, and her experiences at Impact.

Of course, the Impact employees poured all her love, and positive energy out on me, and strongly encouraged me to participate in my own Quest ~ Summit ~ Lift-Off series as well, so that I could better bond with my daughter. I asked her if she had any printed brochures I could take home with me, and she was very happy to provide that information.

Again, my bottom line concern is my daughter's well being: emotionally, physically, spiritually, and her financial well-being as well. And, as mentioned previously, I am worried that, in the final analysis, this seminar series may do more harm than good.

Perhaps it seems a bit OCD for me to want to know the ratio of facilitators / trainers/ trainers in training (or whatever they are called) but I believe that as a Mother I have a right to know the approximate numbers of each type of paid and/or volunteer staff, and what their training has been, so that I can get a better idea of what types of philosopies my daughter is being exposed to, through the seminars.

The young man on the phone seemed quite pleased with himself that he could assure me that the trainers have gone through at least 10 years of training, before being allowed to facilitate a group. The more I read about Hans Berger, and his teachings, the more concerned I am becoming that the people who facilitate these groupts have gone through several years of training with HIM.

The length of training provided for the trainers, at the feet of Hans Berger, does not calm my concerns, but raises my red flags even higher.

It's my daughter's mental health that is in question here, and I'm still not amused that her situational depression issues are being placed in the hands of non-licensed individuals.

And, yes, my daughter is an adult, and should be able to make up her own mind about things. However, she is in a vulnerable time in her life, and I'm concerned about her.

By the way, the step-Mom in this picture, who was trained several years ago by Hans himself, did not think it was manipulative in any way for my ex-husband to play the "Do you trust me?" Trump card, in order to get my daughter signed up for Quest. Nope, the Step-Mom thinks that there was no pressure involved at all, because my ex-husband was coming from a position of love.

"Do you trust me, as your Father?" Wow. That seems like a lot of pressure to me.

Again, thanks for all the information and support from this board,
Mother of Impactees

Mother of Impactees-

Here are the answers to your questions to the best of my knowledge.

1. If a quest training is full there are typically 120 "students". There is either 1 or 2 facilitators and there is between 10 and 20 staff members. All of the staff members from quest have to be members of LMT (unless they've changed that). The numbers in Summit and Lift-off drop off from there. Usually less than 80 in Summit and less than 50 in Lift-off, again, unless things have changed since I've been there.

2. There is no training for the volunteer staff other than previous staffing experiences. As far as trainers go, Hans claims authority through spiritual inspiration, but in reality, he "stole" the whole training from another training group called Landmark. Other than going through a similar training himself he has NO LICENSING WHATSOEVER! As for the other trainers they have their experience through his tutelage. As you presumed they do have 10 years of on the job training, but it's by watching Hans, taking notes and then slowly taking over different processes in the training. Believe me I've seen this process through staffing all 3 levels of the core trainings.

3. Feeback arcs is a process in which they have the "students" sit in chairs formed in an arc. There is one trainee that stands in the "hot spot" (a spot in the center of the arc) while all of the other people in the arc give that person feedback. Feedback sounds something like "you scare me because you are hollow inside, you don't know who you really are and so you have no real emotion. I draw back from you because you are a blank slate you hide your personality and you don't let your real self come out, etc. etc. etc." There are usually about 8 people in the arc and they all take turns giving feedback to each person along with members of the staff. After the trainee receives the feedback they are supposed to respond with a sentence like "Thank you for your honest feedback" and then the members of the arc vote as to whether the statement was sincere or not. The trainees are supposed to receive the voting as feedback as well. Then the person on the hot spot rotates to a new arc and starts all over again. They usually rotate through 3 arcs. I won't give my opinion of this process right now, but believe me there is much to be said. Do a search of this thread for the word feedback and I'm sure you'll get several helpful hits without having to read the whole thread. :)

I think that answers all of your questions for now. Steve is a "douche".

spiritual?,


Thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate being able to get some straight answers to my questions.

It appears that both the paid and volunteer staff at Impact Trainings may be "trained" in a questionable manner, by a questionable man, with questionable motives, and questionable methods.

I was strongly counseled by both Steve and the polite female staff member at Impact Trainings that the internet was full of LIES regarding both Hans Berger, and the Impact Training seminar series... I wasn't surprised by Steve's use of the word "LIES" because, as I mentioned previously, he came at me verbally, like a double barrel shotgun, via the phone.

I was; however, surprised at the female's free use of discrediting disconcerting information I had read on sites such as this one, regarding Hans Berger's claims to be receiving information from God, which he then shares in his seminars.

When I mentioned my concern to the female staff member that Hans was apparently regarded as a Prophet at least by some, she flatly stated that what I had read was a LIE. That she had never heard Hans make any such claims.

Oh, well. She did seem like a nice lady, and unfortunately has apparently been put in a position in which she has to white wash what is reportedly being taught in the higher levels of Impact training, in order to pacify the general public.

Anyway, spiritual?, thanks again for the information you provided. I have been hesitant to believe information on the Internet, and yet, so many people seem to be reporting similar information, it is impossible for me to discredit all of the negative reports, and classify as LIES anything that sheds a negative light on Hans.

I am slowly gathering information regarding Impact Trainings, and as I have free time I am trying to organize my data in some way.

Part of this process includes trying to verify, where possible, information which appears on the Internet. I felt that one of the sentences in the article by the San Francisco Chronicle, regarding the Impact Trainings seminar graduates who killed five people, summed the training up quite nicely, and, as far as I see, the information provided in the article seems to all be based on TRUTH and not on LIES, as the Impact Employees would have me believe.

A copy of the article appears as part of the main Rick Ross website, under the title "Killer's lawyer's blame seminars" and was dated December 14, 2004.

The sentence which I feel summarizes much of what I am learning about the training appears as follows:

Critics say the facilitators aren't trained to lead people through trauma and give superficial results while manipulating people into spending more money and recruiting friends.

Thus, people who aren't professionally trained to help people through trauma, are apparently doing so freely, during the Impact Training seminars...

The reports of the "critics" of Impact is followed quickly by the following sentence, in defense of Impact:

Supporters say the programs are designed to help people and have a record of success -- and don't use or condone abusive tactics.

Wow. How can anyone who has gone through these seminars claim that abusive tactics are not used? From what I have read on this website, and others, abusive tactics seem to be used quite freely.

And, thanks to spiritual? I now have a clear, detailed description of the feedback arc "process." No wonder the process is so painful for some people. OUCH! I can't imagine paying money to participate in a seminar where people are asked to give and receive verbal abuse as part of the process. In my humble unprofessional opinion, that's a bit messed up.

If it looks like abuse, and it feels like abuse, and it quacks like abuse, then I'd call it abuse.

I am still amazed that intelligent people would subject themselves to such activities. I can't imagine paying money for an experience such as the feedback arc. Wow.

But, I must be catching on, because now I can answer some of my own negative concerns about this process, via the spin the Impact Trainings folks seem to be putting on things. The whole "trust the process" approach. So, I suppose that it would be OK for someone to participate in a negative feedback arc, as long as they were "assisted" by it?

Sorry, I'm not very good at sarcasm.

The more I read, the more I understand that this is a sick, sick system that has very slick marketing, and, thus, may hook unsuspecting consumers into participating further and further down a path that supposedly leads to enlightenment, but for many has lead to disappointment.

Also, sorry to be repetetive, but, thanks again, to spirital? and others, for all of your comments, which are helping me understand the true nature of this organization, and their "training seminars," and not the white washed version of the process, that is being sold to the public.

Mother of Impactees

>>but in reality, he "stole" the whole training from another training group called Landmark<<

Not Landmark -- Life Spring, a "training" company started by John Hanley, Bob White and others in the 1970s.

See: [en.wikipedia.org]

and

[www.lifespring-history.com]

However, I know Sally Berger and Mike Cordell (who ran Harmony before the Jubacks, and claimed he gave Hans about $500,000 before filing a lawsuit to get it back) . . . did the LandMark Forum in Salt Lake City sometime in 2001 (I could dig up the exact dates if needed). Sally showed up the day the Forum started and bull$hitted her way into the room (normally they require an application a week or more before the Forum). Friends saw her taking detailed notes on every break (no note taking is allowed in the room) and at least some of that became the Impact trainer in training program. Sally later told a friend of mine that she purposefully did not go back to the last evening session of the Forum so that they could not list her as a "graduate." Cordell told me he went to see "how the people who are really making money at this are doing it." So some of TIT/LMT comes from Landmark. Other parts come from other trainings that Sally has done under cover ("research"), or that others people like the Christensens or Smarts did for them, or from books from The Golden Braid, etc. I don't think LifeSpring ever did anything like Hans and Sally are now doing in LMT. And apparently some of LMT (crystals, decrees, dancing, circles, insense, etc) is more like the Satanist or dark magic cults that are around. I have heard Hans say Jesus and Lucifer are partners and love each other. That Lucifer volunteered to appear evil, but is as bright as christ himself, etc, etc. That's all a Hans and Sally cult, and was not, as far as I know, ever part of LifeSpring, or any of its other spinoffs around the USA.

(There's lots more information on Landmark in other threads on this board. But as far as I know they do not do trust walks, feedback arcs, the red-black game, stretches, alternative names, a ropes course -- or any of the other processes that Hans and Sally STOLE from Life Spring (and Life Spring probably STOLE from somewhere else) . . .


In 2001 Oprah ran a series of 10 episodes with Dr. Phil, called the "Get Real" challenge -- Forty-two people locked in a hotel ballroom for five days with Dr. Phil. I watched that with a group of former Impact friends and we'd laugh and laugh imagining how Hans must feel seeing all his "revelations from Heavenly Father" exposed on TV by Dr. Phil and Oprah!!!!

Most of "Impact's" processes were shown on Oprah over those 10 weeks -- Feedback arcs (aka "the living mirror"), stretches, trust walk, etc, etc. Anyone watching that 10 hours worth of Oprah would know Hans didn't create anything.

Harmony (now Great Life) even changed the names of their trainings to "Get Real, Be Real, Live Real" ror awhile to match Dr. Phil.

Dr. Phil got it from Pathways, a Life Spring company in Dallas.

[www.gopathways.com]

or

[www.createagreatlife.org]

or

[www.marriagebootcamp.com]


If you can get and watch those 10 hours of "Dr. Phil's Get Real Challenge" on Oprah, you'll see most of what goes on at Impact's first three levels (Quest and Summit, and part of Lift Off.)


Life Spring, after more or less going out of business following an investagative report in October 1980 on ABC's 20/20 by Geraldo

The following list of resources is copied from:

[www.panix.com]


A PARTIAL BIBLIOGRAPHY OF ARTICLES AND BOOKS CONCERNING LIFESPRING |
| *** COMPILED MAY 1994 *** |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
1) Conway, Flo and Siegelman, Joe, _Snapping:__America's_Epidemic_of_
_Sudden_Personality_Change_ (Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Com-
pany, 1978), p. 219.

2) Rivera, Geraldo, "Lifespring," _ABC's_20/20_(transcript)_,
30 October 1980, (New York: Media Transcripts, Inc.)

3) Rivera, Geraldo, "Lifespring," _ABC's_20/20_(transcript)_,
6 November 1980, (New York: Media Transcripts, Inc.)

4) Halverson, Dean C., "Lifespring and the Sovereignty of Subjec-
tivism," a pamphlet from Spiritual Counterfeits Project, 1981.

5) Haaken, Janice and Adams, Richard, "Pathology as `Personal Growth':
A Participant-Observation Study of Lifespring Training," _Psychia-
try_, Vol. 46, (1983) pp. 270-280.

6) Asakawa, Gil, "Stress for Success," _Westword_, Denver, Colorado,
11-17 December 1985, pp. 8, 10, 12, 14-15.

7) Lieberman, Morton A., "Effects of Large Group Awareness Training on
Participants' Psychiatric Status, _American_Journal_of_Psychiatry_,
Vol. 144, No. 4, April 1987, pp. 460-464.

8) Fisher, Marc, "Inside Lifespring," _The_Washington_Post_Magazine_,
25 October 1987, pp. 18-35.

9) Vahle, Neal, "Lifespring and the Development of Human Potential,"
_New_Realities_, July/August 1987, pp. 17-22, 51.

10) Solomon, Anita O., "Psychotherapy of a Casualty from a Mass Therapy
Encounter Group: A Case Study," _Cultic_Studies_Journal_, Vol. 5,
No. 2, 1988, pp. 211-227.

11) Hanley, John, _Lifespring:__Getting_Yourself_From_Where_You_Are_to_
_Where_You_Want_to_Be_ (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1989)

12) Keegan, Paul, "Into the Void," _Boston_Business_, February/March
1990, pp. 24-29, 68-77.

13) Mathison, Dirk, "White-Collar Cults: They Want Your Mind...,"
_Self_, February 1993, pp. 120-156.

14) "Readers Write/Fax," _Self_, April 1993, p. 20.

15) McAndrews, Anne, "I Lost My Husband to a Cult," _Redbook_, May
1994, pp. 60-72.


Life Spring is now also selling videos on Amazon, See:

[www.amazon.com]


Hope this Helps,

:)

If not, I tried . . . I tried really hard . . .

:)

--Ed



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2009 03:05AM by Impacted.

Impacted,

Thank you very, very much for all of this information. The more I read, the more I am simply amazed at this whole situation.

I know it must have taken you a great deal of time to compile all the data, and the links, etc. and I will follow through with investigating the information you have provided me.

Additionally, I have now at least skimmed each of the 155 pages of this website, and I am stunned at what is going on behind the closed doors at the Impact Trainings facility.

But, as you pointed out, much of the information just seems to be recycled, and "borrowed" from other seminars.

I know that this may not be the place to bring up religion, but, since my ex-husband and his new wife seem to be so intimately involved with the Impact Trainings seminars, and thus far members of my ex-husband's new immediate family have invested approximately $16,000 dollars into this corporation, I think it is time that someone blow the whistle to their ecclesiastical leaders. Perhaps their church leaders will be able to get through to them. I have tried to share my concerns with my ex-husband, but he won't listen to me. Since I can't afford an attorney, to get my message across to him, I have decided that he is leaving me with few choices, other than letting the folks in charge of his ward know what is going on.

Of course, this will be all done as delicately as possible, and in as confidential a setting as possible. I have already been informed by my children's new Step Mom that it will do no good for me to talk to their Bishop, since the Bishop's wife has attended the Impact Training seminars as well.

Thus, at this point, I have tentative plans to try and make a trip down to Utah, and visit with the Stake President in charge of the area where my ex-husband lives. I am doing this out of CONCERN FOR MY CHILDREN, who are being approached, one by one, and ENCOURAGED to attend the training seminars. Thus far, as I have previously stated, two of my adult children have gone down the Quest ~ Summit ~ Lift-off path.

Unfortunately, these adult children, along with my ex-husband and his new wife, have set an example that several of my younger biological children may choose to follow at some later date. The whole thing sickens me. To know that two of my beautiful children have paid their hard-earned money to participate in such painful activities such as the feed-back arc is of concern to me. But, to know that my younger children are being groomed for their later participation in this series is very disconcerting to me.

Thanks again, Impacted, for providing me with even more additional information. The Impact Training seminar series is sounding more and more like a cheap repeat of a system that was flawed to begin with.

Add to that the bizarre, New Age-type trainings that are going on in the higher levels, and this does not sound like the teachings of an organization that should be well thought of by any active member of the LDS church.

May I please clarify here that I am no longer a practicing Mormon, but my ex-husband and his new wife are, at least by all appearances, very devout, temple recommend holding members of the LDS church. I hesistate to play the trump card, and visit with their Stake President, but we are talking here about my biological children, some of whom have already been ENCOURAGED by my ex-husband to attend this very questionable Seminar Series, and some who are not old enough yet to attend. I can't undo whatever damage that may have already been done with my two adult children, but perhaps if I can get the Stake President to listen to me, perhaps he can get through to my ex-husband and his new wife, so that they don't have free reign to influence my younger children down this same path.

I believe that if I approach the Stake President from a position of concern for my children's welfare: both spiritual, emotional, mental, physical and financial; that he may listen to my concerns, and possibly pass along some sort of a red flag to my ex-husband and his new wife.

Too bad I don't have a current Temple Recommend, to show to the Stake President when I visit with him. I don't even live in Utah, and may be perceived as an outsider, trying to meddle in my ex-husband's business. I'm worried that the Stake President will ignore my concerns as well, but, as I stated earlier, my ex-husband refuses to listen to my concerns, so he has left me little option, but to contact his Priesthood leadership.

Well, I suppose I have rambled enough. Please forgive my lengthy posts, but I have been trying to make sense of the Impact Trainings, and it seems clearer and clearer to me that, since a lot of what they teach is nonsense, that it's not my job to make sense of it!

Thanks again for the moral support from this board.

Mother of Impactees