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rrmoderator
Espiritu:

What is your point here?

Impact has apparently hurt many people, some have posted here.

It seems like you are here to defend Impact.

Honestly - I initially read this entire thread and wanted to post to say that I was shocked to learn how Impact had damaged so many people because that wasn't my impression of it 15 yrs ago. I feel like, in reviewing my posts, I have never "defended Impact". In fact, I've stated that they are unethical and harmful. I have said I feel for those of you who have been hurt. I know I have "defended" some of the techniques used that are therapy or new age based, but I have never said I support what they are doing, or implied that they are out there making the world a better place.

Is it possible for people to glean something out of the fact that someone went through this years ago or whatever and emerged ok? Doesn't this provide some hope for those who have family members still stuck in the impact choke hold or recovering from it? Or does it just make everyone really angry that my life isn't ruined?

If the latter is the case, then I'll leave you guys alone and just lurk. I am truly not trying to offend anyone and wish the like treatment in kind.

Perhaps I'm in the minority on this one but I haven't found Espiritu's comments to be the least bit offensive or insensitive. Impact is far more wacky today than it was 15 years ago and it is reasonable to assume that some people are going to experience more adverse effects to the program than others. Espiritu has been consistently critical of the Bergers and Impact in general. She has defended some of the processes used in the training but many of these processes were developed independently of Impact (and all LGAT's) then claimed, applied incorrectly and marketed as a creation of the Bergers.

In the past we have had Impacters post on the board in an attempt to discredit the negative experiences of the other posters but Espiritu has never done this. Simply stating that her experience was not completely negative is not a slap in the face for the rest of us. Had I stopped attending Impact after Lift-Off I probably would not be nearly as jaded and anyone who manages to escape without experiencing trauma should be counted among the lucky. As long as she does not attempt to discredit others or "blame the victim", which she clearly has not, then I don't see why admitting to a less negative experience is a big deal.

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formerimpactgrad
Perhaps I'm in the minority on this one but I haven't found Espiritu's comments to be the least bit offensive or insensitive. Impact is far more wacky today than it was 15 years ago and it is reasonable to assume that some people are going to experience more adverse effects to the program than others. Espiritu has been consistently critical of the Bergers and Impact in general. She has defended some of the processes used in the training but many of these processes were developed independently of Impact (and all LGAT's) then claimed, applied incorrectly and marketed as a creation of the Bergers.

In the past we have had Impacters post on the board in an attempt to discredit the negative experiences of the other posters but Espiritu has never done this. Simply stating that her experience was not completely negative is not a slap in the face for the rest of us. Had I stopped attending Impact after Lift-Off I probably would not be nearly as jaded and anyone who manages to escape without experiencing trauma should be counted among the lucky. As long as she does not attempt to discredit others or "blame the victim", which she clearly has not, then I don't see why admitting to a less negative experience is a big deal.

Thank you.....I'm glad someone sees what I am trying to say. Whew.

Ditto to Former's comments above.

I've posted before that I got some value out of Impact, some friends (including some new ones from here) who I would not otherwise have. An appreciation for John Denver and other music that I'd never otherwise have heard, a few good memories that can make me laugh or cry for joy.

I believe, that said, that we all also agree that this organization has always done far more harm than good and has become far more dangerous, destructive and downright cultish over time -- as apparently all cults do.

Sally, for example, is engaging in recent behaviors and saying things that sound ever more and more nihilistic and eschatological. She can't pretend she's not growing old anymore. Someday soon she and Hans will be in middle of the true light of the judgment.

Would anyone here be surprised to wake up one day and read a front page article about the 300+ TITers (or LMTers) from SLC who drank a deadly red punch at Mount Shasta with Hans, and Sally and Pamela? I don't think any of them want to go alone.

My impression is we have gathered together here so we can know we've done everything we can to keep that from happening.

Write the president of the U. Write the media. Tell your friends. Put together a list of questions for friends who go anyway to ask their Quest or Summit or Lift-off or LMT trainers. "Has this company ever not kept its word to its employees? Does it always make payroll on time? Ever stiff Ward at Christmas? Ever been shut down by the IRS? Ever had one of those guys at the back table be arrested for stalking a trainee? How much profanity will I hear here? What happened to JJ? Where did Hans get this training from again? Did he and Sally ever do Lifespring? Who was Bruce Solomon? Has this company kept its word to its landlord? Its vendors? Do I have to get naked or close to it in the Women's training? Has nudity occurred there? Why does the LDS Church have a warning about this training? Why do you still do things that "imitate temple" processes? (Washing feet (and other things) are a temple process for the general authorities apparently). Who is David Gilcrease? Duane Smotherman? Lou Dozier? John Webb? Were they trainers here? Why did they leave?"

and the biggie . . .

"Why do you refuse to answer ANY of these questions? Why do you want to make it about ME that I even ask them?"

Is this really all just ego-mind stuff? If so, then YOU can process ME about my integrity; but I can't even ask YOU about YOURS? is that right?

And you want how much of my time? and how much of my money? to get to the end of this "transformation?"

It's transformational alright. Thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours.

And my transformation?

From a fairly normal human being into an UISP -- Unpaid Impact Sales Person.

(and back to the initial topic that got me going here -- I don't see Espiritu as an ISP.)

Best way to kill off Impact?Harmony, etc? Arm one or two groups of new trainees going into Quest with the truth.

--Ed

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Impacted

And my transformation?

From a fairly normal human being into an UISP -- Unpaid Impact Sales Person.

(and back to the initial topic that got me going here -- I don't see Espiritu as an ISP.)

Best way to kill off Impact?Harmony, etc? Arm one or two groups of new trainees going into Quest with the truth.

--Ed

Thanks to you, too - I am definitely not an ISP. I love your idea, too. I want to know where Hans and Sally, etc get off stealing ideas that may be good and healthy and meaningful and claiming to have invented them - and then making them unappealing. It would be great to list a breakdown of all of the trainings w/specifics and give references for the actual creation of what these techniques are, their purpose..etc. Sort of creating a disclaimer people can read before going (IF they insist on going) or info someone can use to convince a loved one this is all stuff YOU DONT HAVE TO PAY FOR!! Hopefully, after they realize that, they won't buy into it all.

Espiritu,

>>get off stealing ideas that may be good and healthy and meaningful and claiming to have invented them - and then making them unappealing. <<

To be clear, I do not agree that any of the core processes used/stolen/slightly modified by Hans/Sally/Pamela or Orvis/McDonald/ etc are at all "good and healthy and meaningful."

From the trust walk, to buddies, to red-black, to feedback arcs, to clear plastic bag, to beating on chairs and singing songs, to lifeboat, secrets, stretches, washing feet, contracts, to ropes course and service . . . NONE of it, not one minute is "good or healthy."

As for what Hans and Sally have brought to it (the cultish and sexual aspects of LMT and Women's and Couples) "unappealing" doesn't begin to describe it. It is twisted, dark and a glorification of evil, of Satan himself -- nothing less than that.

I gather you got something valuable out of impact ca 1993, and I sure thought I did for awhile too (as, I believe all of us thought/felt at one time). It's just on reflection, prayer, and talk with my bishop that I've come to see nothing there as positive at all (excepting, as I've said, a few friendships, and some of the music I might never have heard elsewhere).

The rest of it, pure garbage. Not of lasting value.

---Ed

PS

Here's another good question for a Quest trainee to ask:

"You mean if my Bishop or a General Authority, or the President of the Church, or my husband, or wife, or dying mother, or a policeman or judge orders me to talk about exactly what happened in here, including the processes or what someone else said to me, I have to tell them I can't tell them? Is that what you're asking me to promise?"

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Impacted
Espiritu,

>>get off stealing ideas that may be good and healthy and meaningful and claiming to have invented them - and then making them unappealing. <<

To be clear, I do not agree that any of the core processes used/stolen/slightly modified by Hans/Sally/Pamela or Orvis/McDonald/ etc are at all "good and healthy and meaningful."

From the trust walk, to buddies, to red-black, to feedback arcs, to clear plastic bag, to beating on chairs and singing songs, to lifeboat, secrets, stretches, washing feet, contracts, to ropes course and service . . . NONE of it, not one minute is "good or healthy."

As for what Hans and Sally have brought to it (the cultish and sexual aspects of LMT and Women's and Couples) "unappealing" doesn't begin to describe it. It is twisted, dark and a glorification of evil, of Satan himself -- nothing less than that.

I gather you got something valuable out of impact ca 1993, and I sure thought I did for awhile too (as, I believe all of us thought/felt at one time). It's just on reflection, prayer, and talk with my bishop that I've come to see nothing there as positive at all (excepting, as I've said, a few friendships, and some of the music I might never have heard elsewhere).

The rest of it, pure garbage. Not of lasting value.

---Ed

Fair enough. We come from a whole different place and I respect your opinion because you have respected mine. I am not Mormon. So, I the fact that I found some redeeming value in some of the things you listed and you found them to be garbage is just what it is. I gained insight about myself through some of those things - insight that was built upon throughout my life. Anyway, I am just glad we can agree to disagree. Our backgrounds (spiritually speaking), I think, have a lot to do with our interpretations and experiences.

Espiritu:

Just for the record, I am not Mormon and still see very serious problems with Impact as a large group awareness training program without meaningful accountability or professional standards and licensing.

It is essentially group therapy, but without any meaningful safeguards or educational/licensing requirements for its leaders.

Largely for these reasons LGATs have a horrible history of problems.

>>I gained insight about myself through some of those things - insight that was built upon throughout my life.<<

I think most of us here felt that way for awhile. I suppose it's possible I've forgotten the "good stuff."

I wonder if we agree that Impact does more harm than good? And to what degree. I'm at 99 percent harm, 1 percent lasting value, and no way that 1 percent value was worth all the time and dollars I have given them (in the tens of thousands of dollars over the years for my family and I; in the hundreds, perhaps low thousands of hours in trainings, in meetings, on phone calls related to Impact (but not counting my time here).

Today looking back at Impact as it was in the late 80s/early 90s, I might put it at 85/15. But TIT, mastery, staff trainings, LMT is so full of cult crap, I don't even hold out 15 percent.

Of course when I was on a high just out of ropes service, or around the abundance table, I'd have put it at maybe 5 percent harm, 95 percent value (I remember even then being disturbed by those who in anger blew out of the training room, spewing profanity at all of us, making threats, etc).

You mentioned the Trust Walk as valuable. I disagree. It's contrived and artificial.

I suppose one "process" that I could point to as valuable is the trust fall. I first experienced that in a high school acting class. But the way impact does it, without any real training or practice by those doing the catching, is dangerous.

Other concepts like "It's never about the other person" or "people don't change" are just garbage.

Tell it to a 3 year old rape victim (it IS about the other person, thank you very much) or to Saul who became Paul.

If you want to propose things you found value in in the training for a discussion of how many of us here (if not all of us) now find them to be dangerous, and doing more harm than good, that's okay with me.

Let me add to RRModerator's comment:

>>It is essentially group therapy, but without any meaningful safeguards or educational/licensing requirements for its leaders.<

It is clearly a form of group therapy, but without any meaningful safeguards or educational/licensing requirements or liability insurance coverage for its leaders to compensate "trainees" when the "facilitators" screw up and cause damage.

It is about "the other person" when it comes to demanding the LGATs be accountable, responsible and yes LIABLE.

(Which they try to prove they never are through brainwashing, legalize and pretending to be only "educational" in nature.)

Still, I hope you will give it your best shot and let us know what you got value out of, and/or where you feel Impact is on the harm/good scale. 50/50?

My apologies though if I don't respond right away. I stay away from here for weeks at a time sometimes. Busy with family, especially as the holidays get closer.

Peace,

---Ed



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2008 09:12AM by Impacted.