too much,

Trust...sucks. Let me just say that, it is irrational to believe you cannot trust anyone, BUT, make damn sure you can trust who you decide to. I will not hype this or over-optimize it, therapy can help, and you can get back what has been taken to a great degree. But is takes discipline, real, long term like discipline, not the quick-fix bullshit you have been fencing with Impact. Treating clinical depression requires intelligence, patience and a subtle touch. For those of us with legitimate psychological or emotional disorders, Impact is a baseball bat/electron microscope for such problems. Unfortunately, as far as the money goes, good therapy isn't cheap. Fortunately, many such therapists have a discount system if you can illustrate your need by verifying your income (just ask). I strongly suggest finding a Ph.D without exception. Someone who stresses cognitive function and emotional health. It is OK to interview therapists, in fact I recommend it. Make sure at the outset that they do not utilize new-age meditation/nonsense in their practice before you even get started. Trust me, if they whip something out that reminds you of the training, it will be bad. Just be up-front and tell them everything in the outset, and generally they will be honest with you concerning whether they think they can help you or not. Also, make sure they are an expert in diagnosing disorders. Though you were diagnosed with clinical depression in the past, you may have co-morbid anxiety disorder now and may not know it. Also, the depression symptoms may have changed. Anxiety and depression are different, and a Ph.D will generally know that. It really is important to not overestimate your ability to deal with the situation alone and also to not underestimate your ability to reason through what has happened and (eventually) get major things back in control. I'll write more later, just try to take comfort in the fact that you are getting things off of the treadmill and back on track.

Best wishes,

Ex

too much presents a real, huge dilemma. She has no trust in Impact, her Impact family, natural family, religious leaders, etc. and no money. In a perfect world Impact would be held accountable for the portion of this damage and dilemma they have caused, which appears to be considerable.

She has demonstrated the ability to articulate the elements of her situation very well. With the self imposed restraints she has on herself this is a very tough problem. There are a lot of trustworthy sources of help out there, in the non-Impact world, but how does she get through the trust vacuum? I find myself at a loss to offer suggestions except that her post here should bring some trustworthy advice. What may help her most would be a qualified attorney, willing to work on contingency, to go after Impact resources in court for the damages they have done to her. She has to start by trusting somebody. Professional counseling is certainly in order. I hope to see a lot of good advice posted here, rather than sent as PMs, because if it is really good advice it will we welcomed by a lot more than just too much. (This hope was realized, even as I was writing this by the post of exImpact) The down side of that is that we know Impact folks monitor this board. It's all part of the real, huge dilemma!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2008 09:16AM by Hopeful Soul.

Thank you ex. I love the email address. I suppose yahoo wouldn't let you use actual profanity. Too bad. After I posted I realized that I said "Sorry, sorry, sorry." I was trying to be a rebel by saying sorry but ended up doing the speaking in threes crap. Yes ex, I'm concerned about complicated counseling too. I was a difficult depression patient before Impact, that's why I tried it. I feel like now my brain must resemble 1980's spaghetti programming code. Who knows what connects to what?

Hopeful, well, I did manage to extend some trust to my sister who has been through quest. She said she never bought into it much but stayed all the way through because she didn't want to catch crap from our mom or for her buddy to catch crap from Justin. I was her angel. I was a very bad angel. My sister smokes. On the way to "Thursday of your life," - I find it helps to think of Justin's voice on helium and him dressed up as a nerd ala summit :) - anyway - I took a detour and told her to get her daily cigarettes out of the way so she could stand the rest of the night. She was grateful. I love my sister, she called me back today. We hadn't talked for months after a nasty fight. (Not so coinsidentally right after I staffed something.) I told her what was going on. She said she thought Impact was weird but couldn't put her finger on why. So we bonded again by making all kinds of fun at the stupid things from Impact. A couple hours of laughing at the staff and their Impactisms made me feel so much better. Yeah! for sisters.

I have wondered why there isn't a class action suit against Impact. Also what would happen if we called the credit card companies and did a charge back for the payment of training put on a card? I don't know how recent the charge has to be but definitely the product was not what was agreed upon or advertised prior to service. Plus anyone who was kicked out and not given a refund should definitely try charging back. Just because Impact doesn't feel like refunding doesn't mean they get to keep the money if a credit card was used and they often are. In case you don't know, all you have to do is call the credit card company and tell them you would like the charges removed because the product was unsatisfactory and the business won't cooperate. They will try to get a resolution. I doubt that "He wasn't his word" would fly for a major cradit card company as a reason to not get a refund for an unsatisfied customer.

If the trainers and owners are as unstable mentally as people are saying, it'd really start a nervous breakdown to suddenly get tons of charge backs, BBB complaints, poor internet reviews every where and possible fraud charges (even if it's just unsatisfactory business practices, ect.) brought against them. Also, does that Robert Pervo guy get to staff the children's events? Seriously, nothing takes a business down like true blue criminal charges against the company for child endangerment. Even if he did nothing bad, it's still endangerment to have a registered sexual predator on your staff. I know he can't be the only one. I ran into some one else who said he could go back to prison just for being in the building with children present. Why didn't that freak me out? Oh yeah, cuz it wasn't the freakiest thing happening at the time.

I have helped in a lawsuit against a Utah company before. (They settled and fired some people.) It's hard to get anyone to join in at first but if they hear that they might get money it becomes easier and win-able because suddenly there's enough participation and documentation. Unfortunately, I don't remember how we got the lawyer. Speaking of law, does anyone know how many times the cops were called out to Impact and what for? I saw it happen once but didn't get to hear why they were called. It was a trainee that made the call that time.

Oh, word to the wise. In case ya'll didn't know this, they have security at certain events now. They've gotten some of the graduates who are cops to volunteer as security. They look like CIA agents complete with the dark suits and little ear pieces. Seems like something has them rattled. I first saw it in January at the "all graduates waste of time, yeah it's a new year, wonder twin powers activate go! and bring your friends" session. Yuck. I just had a flashback. Yip, it would take mind control to make Hans' incoherent prattling sound interesting, inspired and useful. What a rube, as Bugs Bunny would say.

Thank you for letting me prattle. Oh and thank you, ex and hopeful for responding kindly.

Slash,

Best of luck with your friend. Hopefully you can help remove them from the situation. Regardless, if you have inoculated yourself from potential enrollment then I suppose the thread is doing its job.

Too Much,

My condolences and best wishes. I bought into Impact briefly but stayed much longer due to family influences. Knowing that I would be cut off if I separated myself from Impact I chose to remain involved until I reached a point where it was apparent that I would not be able to convince my family members to leave. After I removed myself from the situation I received the condescending treatment from the grads that they all justify as "just another form of love", lol. In response to your most recent posts, I did not receive any therapy or attend any counseling. There were days when I considered it but on the balance I was able to regain my sanity by simply removing myself from the situation. As time has gone on I have found that I am less and less affected by my Impact experience. Discussing my experiences on this board and systematically picking apart the arguments that Impact uses to justify its methods or point out obvious flaws in their approach has been therapeutic in and of itself.

As far as chargebacks are concerned, the rule is 60 days after service is rendered. This can be interpreted in many ways and Impact would have a nearly impossible task in reversing chargebacks if the consumer stated that the chargeback occurred due to "misrepresentation of the product or service". Merchants are required to disclose important information about their products or services and because Impact does not disclose any relevant information about the nature of their trainings, prior to enrollment, they would be virtually defenseless if a trainee attempted to chargeback a payment during the 60 day period. Also, one may be able to argue that the service was not fully rendered until after lift off was completed. If that argument was successful, it would allow the cardholder to chargeback every single transaction since Quest as long as the most recent training occurred less than 60 days ago.

Class action lawsuits seem to be the bane of the LGAT world. Many non-operating LGAT's were shut down due to adverse judgments in class action cases. I think Impact has flown under the radar so far. Who knows how much longer that will last.

formerimpactgrad, you seem to know a little about previous successful law suits against LGAT's. If you know any names of groups or where they were located that were successful, could you post it or pm me? Knowing what other groups have done will make it a lot easier - both to learn what to do and to get people on board. I know from experience that a mountain of documentation is worth gold in court. From the size of this thread, I'd say there's enough documentation out there. There might even be enough for personal criminal charges against the staff and owners. The constant degrading of real psychiatric professional help for even people who were on medications before the training might be an in for negligence. I know they officially said "Don't go off your medication" but they also said it was unnecessary several times, that we could just be committed enough to never need them again. They also berrated all medications - that would include insulin.

I'm preaching to the choir here, but that this is actually a dangerous group for people's physical health as well. I know that in one case a sick person stopped breathing during one of the dance stretches last year and the trainer would not allow the medical profession who was present call an ambulance. Luckily the person started breathing again but it was quite touch and go for at least an hour. Unfortunately, the person took the hallucinations from the near death experience as spiritual and is even more entrenched than ever. The trainer was absolutely callous to the distressed person's physical condition, even when it was clear they were no longer breathing.

Words fail. Grrr....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/30/2008 01:24AM by too much.

I've started dating someone who is an Impacter. He's gone through all the trainings and now he goes back and facilitates as a volunteer. It's a big part of his identity and he obviously gets a huge rush/validation from trainees who worship him as a god. It's the weirdest combination of affected humility and grandiose delusion I've ever seen. I really like this guy but I guess I need to see the writing on the wall. This site is very helpful. Thanks for your posts. My BF and all his friends are trying to get me into Impact ("If it doesn't completely change your life for the better, we'll reimburse you the $500") and there is no way in hell I would put myself through that kind of brainwashing.

I had never heard of Impact before and I've never met so many seemingly delusional people in my life. It's like I'm an outsider and they are all this big freaky family who believe they are more enlightened than the rest of the world. He seems like two different people: the normal, nice, cool guy and the mental patient suffering from grandiose delusions about himself who talks to dead people. He "tunes in" to my angels (WTF?) and so do his friends. Thye consult "angel cards" for direction in their lives and use crystals to help them meditate. And that's the mild part. They keep telling me that "we create our own reality" and man, I believe that because these people are definitely living in their own reality. Apparently, these people believe they are "ascended masters" who are here only to help the rest of us see the light. Some of them actually believe they've lived in past lives as apostles of Jesus Christ among other things. It's insane!!!!!

Moreover, I've never met so many F'ed up people in my life. Many of them still attend the LDS church, go to the temple, are having sex with their girlfriends, abuse prescription meds (illegally, one even sells them), and preach the gospel to me. Several of them smoke pot. I guess none of the conventional rules apply to them and integrity is a relative concept.

Thanks for letting me vent. I'd love your feedback.

jk.genesis,

Welcome to the thread. Best of luck with your bf, the "angel cards" were just starting to make their way into the group's social structure when I left (For those who don't know, "angel cards" are exactly the same as tarot cards but they have pictures of angels, fairies, etc on them instead of the somewhat grim tarot pictures).

Your last line really resonates with me. It seems like Impact is all about rationalization. They don't have to follow the LDS temple doctrines literally because they are fulfilling them on some kind of spiritual level. While I fail to see how anyone can "keep the law of chastity in spirit" when they are physically having sex, I'm sure your bf and his friends can explain it in a way that is both enlightening and amusing. For the record, I am indifferent as to whether someone holds to LDS doctrines but it does seem hypocritical for someone to attend the temple (and thus lie to LDS church leaders to get a recommend) when they claim to be "ascended masters". Isn't their perceived power or general state of being a master contingent on their ability to "Be their word"?


Too Much,

In answer to your last question, check out LifeSpring's history. In the end they were brought down by bad press and civil judgments. You can find a lot of information on the rick ross site or even on wikipedia and its reference links.

Thanks, FormerImpactgrad. I've read a lot more of this thread subsequent to my first post and it has been enlightening. I keep fluctuating between resisting the urge to laugh hysterically or to slap myself upside the head. I've already been exposed to the ideas that there is no right or wrong, only results matter, we're all "at choice," there is no good or bad, the concept of how we "show up," blah blah blah. I'm not particularly religious but there is no rational basis for many of the principles Impact teaches and several appear to be inconsistent with each other. The whole law of attraction thing and how people write books about it -- well, the dead people they are talking to for the rest of us tell them what to write and we buy their books and they make money and the dead people are happy that the authors are getting rich off a bunch of bullshit. Holy shit! People are so credulous. The fertile ground Impact seems to create for infidelity is also concerning. And if there is no right or wrong ... It just is. I guess I can "be my word" and cheat on my spouse/significant other if "it works for me" because there is no right or wrong. From the little I've observed, Impact simply exploits people's insecurities, justifies their destructive behavior, and mentally messes them over in the process.

Are they all irrational? My BF even told me about the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon being translated. I am familiar with the LDS church's beliefs about the sealed portion. So when BF told me this, I thought WTF? He told me I could access it online. I did and learned all about Christopher Nemelka's claims about translating the sealed portion under the direction of Joseph Smith. However, I also learned from doing a little more research that Christopher Nemelka himself not only admitted he made the whole thing up and that he lied, but he did it for money. When I pointed this out to BF he admitted that Christopher Nemelka had his issues but BF claimed Mr. Nemelka was still inspired!!!??? Some portions of the sealed portion "work for" him, it "feels right" to him. Help me. (That's just a rhetorical plea). I read somewhere that choosing to disregard facts and evidence that are contrary to what we want to believe is a manifestation of mental illness. I think this is true. I can't tell you how many times BF and I have been having a seemingly normal conversation when he will say something that made me wonder if he was off his meds. Yet he seemed so normal in other respects.

BF did try to leave/separate himself from Impact after we met, and not because I encouraged him either way. He decided on his own that Impact was no longer "working" for him. However, he couldn't do it. He was back at "Ropes" the very next opportunity. I wish I knew how to help these people but for now I think I'm just going to run like hell.

jk.genesis

Thanks Formerimpactgrad. I also found the website of a guy who won nearly $9 million from scientology. Does anyone know if there's a statute of limitations on this sort of thing? I don't want to miss it. I know that for mal-practice against doctors it's two years. (Or maybe my lawyer was wrong - he WAS a twit.) But it makes me wonder how much time I have to work with.

Wow, JK, you are observant. I was actually trained to ignore contradictions from a early age. I was raised by an atheist and a non-christain. Then after I got used to fending off all the christians who were trying to save me, my parents joined the mormon church. Sunday school was awesome! When asked what kingdom I wanted to go to when I died, I answered the animal kingdom because I didn't want to come back as a bug. (It's funny now but the upset teacher wasn't funny at the time.) So I had to hide my non-christian beliefs to conform to the new ones.

The unapoligizing blending of eastern religions to christianity is what made Impact for me. (Okay I was on narcotics for pain too, so I'm not totally sure I understood things the way other people did.) The "no wrong or right" statement hit me differently than most people I've since learned. I understand that not believing in a wrong or right is a sign of psychosis, as in a danger to society. I never took Impact's statement that literally. My "baggage" was that I had a good-mormon/bad christian mother-in-law who told me I was going to hell for liking Star Trek and that Jesus didn't like the way I wash dishes. (Maybe not a direct quote about the dishes but that was the gist.) So I loved hearing that there was no wrong or right way to live after all that brow beating. I just interpreted it to mean no right or wrong as long as it fits within the laws of government and human decency and kindness.

I was startled at "family members" who seemed to take things like that so literally. At lunch one time a guy was talking about rejecting all rules and making your own path and decided to ream me (the emotionally and physically weakest of the group - how brave of him) for being so ignorant and "buying into" social etiguette such as waiting for everyone to be seated before eating. All rules should be rejected was his point. I wondered later why that didn't apply to the Impact ground rules. But the evidence was that it really didn't; I just wasn't observant at the time because of my medication.

Another time when I was talking about how to do something, I got verbally dogpiled for saying "You do...." Some guy got in my face and said "You know how I feel when you said the word you at me? Like you were commanding me to do it! Say I when you talk or I feel like I'm being assaulted." I still haven't figured out how to put "I" into FU, so I couldn't respond. I just never talked to him again. I think he was tense because recruiting for enrollment weekend wasn't going well.

Jk you put your finger on a very creapy I noticed about my angel. I asked why the contradictions between Impact and LDS doctrine don't bother her. She said that the church was built for people who aren't very far along their spiritual journey and while it doesn't have anything to offer her since she's so evolved now, it's her responcibility to be a teacher so she can't leave. It was so arrogant, so superior and so "out of integrity" that I was speachless. She made it sound like she had joined a secret society and wanted to subvert to church from the inside. Also, she made it clear that she felt she was on the same level as the prophet of the LDS church. Wow. ILDS indeed. It is impossible to believe what the church says about him being the top guy, the special emessary to God and still think that random members of the congregation can be his equal, especially women who are not recognized by the church to have priesthood authority and are therefore exempt from ever becoming a prophet. I'm not trying to bait anyone into a fight -no, nonono, no. I'm just saying that clearly she was trying to mix mutally exclusive beliefs and pretending that it was working. Yes JK, I also would call that creating your own reality. - But not in a good way.

Sorry for hitting the thread twice. But I wanted to talk about JK's question about how to help her friend. I have been pondering what information would have helped me to not join Impact or at least leave earlier than I did. Here are some thoughts.

1. Write down what I believe in before the training and what would I never believe in. (Keeping those thoughts in mind to compare with what the training is teaching would be an eye opener.)

2. Researching the training staff to see what qualifications and degrees they have. (The constant snearing about education was unnerving.)

3. Creating boundaries such as not putting up with being yelled at, brow beaten and forced to relive abusive events. Knowing that there is such a thing as second hand abuse. (Hans' stories about how awful the russians were to his german town are not for the faint of heart. By forcing people to listen to his stories in order for them to finish the training, he really is abusing them. Not everyone can handle what's talked about in there but no one cared.)

So specifically, JK, in your situation, I might be able to tell you what he's thinking. Maybe that will help you to know how to help him.
First, it's an addiction. This is better than life.
Everyone appears happy when you see them. They seem succesful or fulfilled (normally it's out of fear that they will get processed otherwise.)
You're encouraged to "be yourself" and especially encouraged to show the part of yourself that no one else has responded to in the past. Even if it's socially abhorent, it will be appreciated if it fits the plan for that day.
You're told you can do anything, that no dream is silly or unattainable. It's awesome. Not reality... but fun (that part anyway until the world intrudes.)
There is a forced emotional, spiritual and physical intimacy in the trainings. For someone who doesn't get that fulfilled completely, that's enough reason alone to go.
Fear of loss. There are enough euphoric moments to make many people come back just to feel them again. If they stop going, that source of euphoria is gone. (it's not the only source, but it seems like it to the trainees.)
Also, the friends can be fun. You constantly meet new people who also seem to like meeting you. This social need is a very tempting reason to stay. It seems so much easier to meet other Impact trainees than make new friends elsewhere - that's in part due to the forcible huggings.

Second, don't underestimate the conditioning.
We were taught that the way we lived before was the reason there are wars and famine. (I caused wars by gossiping. I caused famine by using the words try and help. I've been poisoning society by believing that farty old guys should not try to have sex with children and making myself unhappy about it. No, not bitter, no... not at all.) - Don't we care enough to continue down the path to enlightenment so the world can change?
We were taught to believe that contradictions are our low vibration and that we just aren't open enough. Come on, raise your vibration.
As a staff member, you see other people having euphoric moments and that seems like it's a good thing. You feel likeyou're making a difference in someone's life. Of course, you have little idea what they do next.
I remember worshipping my staff at certain times. Of course, it was partly out of fear that they'd yell at me for not participationg properly. And also because - Wow, they could make sense out of this s---?! They must be enlightened.

Clearly that's not all of it, but the"bottom line" is that there may be a need not being met for him somewhere and he's filling it with the trainings. The loss of equlibrium when leaving impact could also be enough to have to go back. That's what I did. My brother had another statement that I think is telling. When I told him that I quit Impact and was avoiding religion for a while he said, "Just make sure you don't go insane." If there's a void left in your life when you reject a religion (It is a religion), you don't know what to believe or how to live for a while. I've been through withdrawals from different medications like morphine and serious opiates (They were prescribed but that didn't make it easier). Leaving Impact truly compares to the withdrawals in intensity.